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Will FFG comment on the generics issue?

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21 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Your bar for business ethics is set very very low. 

From the official marketing page:

I think "strongly implied" is putting it mildly. This is also supported by the precedent of every multi-ship expansion in 1st edition including the necessary generic pilots after the first Imperial Aces pack didn't and made people unhappy. 

Or maybe I'm just more realistic than some? Nothing in FFG's statements suggests we'd be able to use any combination of ships we wanted. Just stopping to think about it, their statement is clearly not going to be literally true in 100% of cases since everyone's collection is different. To me the disclaimer about the number of ships supported by dial was a strong indicator we wouldn't necessarily be able to use all our ships as generics.

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5 minutes ago, Kharnete said:

Thank you for getting those links for us. People are right about some.of the numbers not matching up. Fingers crossed they (the numbers) are incorrect.

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Those numbers feel really off.

"4 medium-sized plastic bases, 4 medium-sized plastic pins, 43 ship indicators, 37 maneuver selectors, 23 selector identification tokens, 84 ship cards, 162 improvement cards, 2 status cards, 8 arc indicators of turret and 23 different cards.
" - rebel kit translation by google 

37 maneuver selectors look to be correct.
23 selector identification tokens appear really wrong, 37 ship dials and only 23 identification tokens for those dials? 
43 ship indicators (this could be the bases, and if so it seems low you need roughly 3:2 ration of bases to total pilot counts for everything assuming a 2 generic 2 unique setup, but we know with the rebel kit leak that several ships have no generics or have 3 generics so not sure what the actual ratio is would have to do the math.)
23 different cards... not sure about that.


Basically, these numbers look like some early placeholders (have not even been updated with the correct decimator and gunboat numbers) and I am hoping we get a clarification but I am not too worried.

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Assuming that every ship has 4 different pilots, be it 2 generics:2 uniques, 1 generic: 3 uniques, or 4 uniques, that would mean you'd need 2 bases for every ship. 

We can see this just by looking at the contents of normal x-wing expansions. Every ship that comes with 4 pilots comes with 2 bases, genericA+uniqueA on one base, genericB+unique B on the other, and that way every time you buy another copy of that ship, you are able to use any possible combination of generics and uniques equal to the number of copies of that ship you own. 

So if every ship in the conversion kit has some combination of 4 different pilots, we should see at least 74 ship bases in the kits corresponding to the 37 ships that the conversion kits are  each advertised as converting. 

[q]84 ship cards[/q]

Assuming this means pilot cards, this also seems way off. Looking at the list of ships and number of each and basing on the full generic pilots and named pilots revealed in the recent facebook spoiler, there should be 94 pilot cards to account for 1 of each named pilot card and enough generic pilots to cover all the ships included. 

84 only makes sense if they only give you 2 generic pilot cards for each of the small/medium based ships that have generics and only give you 1 generic pilot card for each large ship. 

Edited by Tvboy

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Pre-ordering is never a good life choice. FFG has cared about generic pilots close to 0%. Why would that change? I wish they would care, but I can't answer why they would.

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6 minutes ago, Dengar5 said:

Pre-ordering is never a good life choice. FFG has cared about generic pilots close to 0%. Why would that change? I wish they would care, but I can't answer why they would.

Huh? FFG has never shortchanged us on generics like this except for the first time they released a multi-ship expansion pack. 

I agree though that pre-ordering is just bad capitalism. 

Edited by Tvboy

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7 minutes ago, Dengar5 said:

Pre-ordering is never a good life choice. FFG has cared about generic pilots close to 0%. Why would that change? I wish they would care, but I can't answer why they would.

They have always included enough generics to run full multiples of all the generics contained in that pack. 

The closest thing is having the packs that don't have generics for a pilot that was found in a different pack for that ship.

If the conversion packs don't end up having enough to run full of each generic I will be shocked... and I will actually be pretty mad at FFG.

I am fairly optimistic that we will have enough, but all this has sowed doubt.

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1 hour ago, Kharnete said:

162 upgrade cards seems a lot of cards for what we saw. Or at least seems it :P

Looking through the google doc of spoiled cards for the Rebel faction, I count 70 different non-unique upgrades and 25 unique upgrades. 

If they give us 2 of each of the non-unique upgrades and 1 of each unique upgrade, that's 165 cards. So actually it sounds like we might be getting short-changed on upgrade cards too, at least for the people that were planning on only buying 1 conversion kit. Once you buy 2 or more you'll probably be set as far as duplicate upgrades are needed. 

Edited by Tvboy

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So I went back and checked FFG's corrected list of number of rebel ships converted and the rebel conversion kit images on FB and the only conclusion I can come to is that even the FB gallery isn't showing us everything.

  • Number of Ship dial included in the Rebel Conversion Kit - 37
  • Number of Pilot cards in the FB gallery - 69
  • Expected minimum number of cardboard bases (double sided) - 37
  • Number of Pilots supported by the above - 74
  • Number of cardboard bases from Spanish page - 43
  • Number of Pilot cards from Spanish page - 84

And all this doesn't even take into account the odd distribution of some of the dials / cards. There are supposed to be 3 A-wing dials in the Kit, but only 4 pilot cards spoiled instead of the expected 6. The Auzituck, K-wing and YT-2400 are supposed to have two dials, but each only have 3 pilots spoiled instead of the expected 4. The Z-95 is supposed to have 4 dials, but only 4 pilot cards spoiled instead of the expected 8. And finally both the X-wing and the Y-wing are supposed to have two dials, but each have 6 pilots spoiled instead of the expected 4.

None of the numbers from any of the sources match. That tells me that nobody outside of FFG is seeing the whole picture and / or we are still missing multiple somethings.

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Translating the Spanish text to English (done by spanish-speaker):

4 Medium plastic bases for medium-sized ship

4 Medium plastic pins

43 Ship indicators

37 Maneuver selectors

23 Selection ID token

84 Ship cards

162 Upgrade cards

2 State cards

8 Turret arc indicators

23 various tokens

 

While it is true that FFG has not promised anything, that doesn't mean there is no customer expectations of whether this is a good deal or not.

In my mind:

- If I can't field all my generics using 1 conversion kit = won't buy into 2.0 as costs would go up.

- If I don't get enough tokens to field any possible 200 pts squadron (including tokens provided by 1 core set) = won't buy 2.0 as costs would go up.

 

Its irrelevant whether FFG promised anything or not. If it's outside my budget, then I'm afraid I won't buy it.

*EDIT: This is the rebel kit I'm referring to

Edited by OoALEJOoO

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1 minute ago, Icelom said:

If the conversion packs don't end up having enough to run full of each generic I will be shocked... and I will actually be pretty mad at FFG.

I am fairly optimistic that we will have enough, but all this has sowed doubt.

Sure FFG has technically printed the cardboard for generic pilots. Sadly FFG has consistently & intentionally priced them to be worse than named pilots & the undercosted upgrades that named pilots have access to. The Auzituck is an exception & it's good because FFG definitely had no clue how much value re-enforce has. Harpoons & bombs are especially powerful against generics. Pilots like Jess Pava cost a single point more than the generic pilot for the ship! The brand new TIE Reaper generic costs 22 points, just like the B-wing, & the B-wing is unplayable. The new X-wing refit is merely a way to experiment before 2e drops. In these things and more is revealed the bias FFG has against generic pilots.

The Rebel conversion leak gives enough info for me to feel an 80% likelihood that generic pilots will be missing from the upgrade box.

 

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2 minutes ago, Dengar5 said:

Sure FFG has technically printed the cardboard for generic pilots. Sadly FFG has consistently & intentionally priced them to be worse than named pilots & the undercosted upgrades that named pilots have access to. The Auzituck is an exception & it's good because FFG definitely had no clue how much value re-enforce has. Harpoons & bombs are especially powerful against generics. Pilots like Jess Pava cost a single point more than the generic pilot for the ship! The brand new TIE Reaper generic costs 22 points, just like the B-wing, & the B-wing is unplayable. The new X-wing refit is merely a way to experiment before 2e drops. In these things and more is revealed the bias FFG has against generic pilots.

The Rebel conversion leak gives enough info for me to feel an 80% likelihood that generic pilots will be missing from the upgrade box.

 

But you are a massive pessimist who hates 2.0 so I take what you think with a giant heaping grain of salt.

I tried not to run my generic swarm lists very often as I felt really dirty playing them (amazingly good lists, however large tournament fatigue meant they started to really suck if you played more then a few games in a day... bumping is bad) I certainly never felt ffg had any kind of bias against generics, they were very good its just surprisingly hard to run anything more than 3 ships in a tournament setting and that generally means you need unique pilots to bump the utility up on those 3 ships, saveing points to get you the 4th ship in means nothing if you start flying your ships into each other after round 4. 
 

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1 hour ago, Icelom said:

.
23 selector identification tokens appear really wrong, 37 ship dials and only 23 identification tokens for those dials? 
43 ship indicators (this could be the bases, and if so it seems low you need roughly 3:2 ration of bases to total pilot counts for everything assuming a 2 generic 

Ship ID tokens are double-sided, so that covers 46 ships.

Bases are also double sided so that covers 86 pilots, and there are 84 in the box.

my favorite part of the google translate is "Z-95 Headrest "

 

Edited by skotothalamos

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6 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Ship ID tokens are double-sided, so that covers 46 ships.

Bases are also double sided so that covers 86 pilots, and there are 84 in the box.

Yep...

The issue is with 84 pilots is there enough pilots to run full generics of every ship.  Based on the full leak my math shows we need 91 pilots for full generics of every ship (that has generics...) Now I think the full leak is missing some stuff, and the content counts are also incorrect. 

Really I just need to actually see whats in them.

Edited by Icelom

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So..  the issue is some people are upset because the upgrade kit, that covers the rational and budget conscious idea that a player who only purchased one of any single sku can fly all his ships, are upset that they can't fly the dozen z-95’s they own?   

I get it, some people have WAY more disposable income than me, that’s fine.  I get that people have lots of ships.. but in a universe where EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. Onscreen has an elaborate backstory that maybe generics aren't really a thing.   Maybe the way the rebel faction plays puts an emphasis on flying named pilots?   

No one forced you to buy multiple copies of the same product, and maybe I'm the weird one that never bought duplicate skus because I never saw the point and I had the foresight to know that many if the ships would come in another pack.. 

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13 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I tried not to run my generic swarm lists very often as I felt really dirty playing them (amazingly good lists, however large tournament fatigue meant they started to really suck if you played more then a few games in a day... bumping is bad) I certainly never felt ffg had any kind of bias against generics, they were very good its just surprisingly hard to run anything more than 3 ships in a tournament setting and that generally means you need unique pilots to bump the utility up on those 3 ships

People don't fly 2-3 ship lists because "its just surprisingly hard to run anything more than 3 ships in a tournament setting." Lists with 2-3 ships are flat out better than ALL lists with 4+ ships! Years ago, lists with 4+ ships were a regular part of the meta. This was before much of the named pilot & upgrade powercreep. BTW, I think 2e is wonderful & its happening sooner than I thought. It is rather rude to words into peoples mouths. So far there are many good things about 2e and many horrible things about it.

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1 minute ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

So..  the issue is some people are upset because the upgrade kit, that covers the rational and budget conscious idea that a player who only purchased one of any single sku can fly all his ships, are upset that they can't fly the dozen z-95’s they own?   

I get it, some people have WAY more disposable income than me, that’s fine.  I get that people have lots of ships.. but in a universe where EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. Onscreen has an elaborate backstory that maybe generics aren't really a thing.   Maybe the way the rebel faction plays puts an emphasis on flying named pilots?   

No one forced you to buy multiple copies of the same product, and maybe I'm the weird one that never bought duplicate skus because I never saw the point and I had the foresight to know that many if the ships would come in another pack.. 

4

It coverts 4x z-95's it should have the generics for 4x z-95's or whats the point?

If this is true you should be pissed more than anyone else, at least if there is enough cardboard for all the generics you could sell some of your extra Z-95 off. if there is not multiples of generics then you are stuck with 4x z-95 dials for your 1x z-95 with no hope to recuperate that money.

I get it the conversion kits are not fair to everyone, they cant be everyone has different collections but they should convert the ships they claim to convert.

**note: I still think there is hope that they do, a lot of this stuff is in the air.

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I do not see the problem here, unless I am missing something. The Rebel conversion kit was stated to come with 4 Z95 dials, so I would assume that it would only come with enough cardboard and cards to fly 4 generic Z95s?

I will withhold judgement until I see a full conversion kit unboxing. Pre-release kits could be missing things.

Edited by Varyag

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2 minutes ago, Varyag said:

I do not see the problem here, unless I am missing something. The Rebel conversion kit was stated to come with 4 Z95 dials, so I would assume that it would only come with enough cardboard and cards to fly 4 generic Z95s?

The concern is that it might only come with 2 bandits and 2 talas, rather then the more useful 4 of each.

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2 minutes ago, Dengar5 said:

People don't fly 2-3 ship lists because "its just surprisingly hard to run anything more than 3 ships in a tournament setting." Lists with 2-3 ships are flat out better than ALL lists with 4+ ships! Years ago, lists with 4+ ships were a regular part of the meta. This was before much of the named pilot & upgrade powercreep. BTW, I think 2e is wonderful & its happening sooner than I thought. It is rather rude to words into peoples mouths. So far there are many good things about 2e and many horrible things about it.

I put no words into your mouth... I stated you are negative and you are.

And I disagree with your statement, my best lists in a 1v1 single game while fully rested are generic swarms, I don't dare take them to a large tournament because fatigue will kill those lists. That's me. All things being equal if 3x ship lists were perfectly power level balanced to full on swarms then 3x ship lists would win all the big tournaments because they have fewer issues with fatigue. 

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