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Will FFG comment on the generics issue?

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16 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

I wonder if when they get around to the wave specific mini conversion packages, if more generics will be in those? In a year from now we may all be swimming in generics and extra dials.

Unfortunately I don't think so.  I suspect those mini kits will have just the pilot cards, upgrade cards, and bases that don't come in the main conversion kits.  I don't even expect them to have dials.

I could be wrong but I really think all we'll be getting in those is the bare minimum.  If I am right they are not even really mini-conversion kits.  They are mini-supplements to the main conversion kits.

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3 minutes ago, JamesWG said:

Unfortunately I don't think so.  I suspect those mini kits will have just the pilot cards, upgrade cards, and bases that don't come in the main conversion kits.  I don't even expect them to have dials.

I could be wrong but I really think all we'll be getting in those is the bare minimum.  If I am right they are not even really mini-conversion kits.  They are mini-supplements to the main conversion kits.

Possibly. But something has to be on the back side of those bases. And with all the negative reactions, FFG may be inspired to add generics. Dials may be unlikely but that is also possible.

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5 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

Possibly. But something has to be on the back side of those bases. And with all the negative reactions, FFG may be inspired to add generics. Dials may be unlikely but that is also possible.

Yeah I think they will have generics for the backs of the tokens, but I don't think they'll have dials. The dials are in the big conversion box. Though that depends on how long they print the conversion kits for I suppose.

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4 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

Possibly. But something has to be on the back side of those bases. And with all the negative reactions, FFG may be inspired to add generics. Dials may be unlikely but that is also possible.

My suspicion is that the base will be unique1//unique2, like we sometimes get in single ship expansions.  I really hope I'm wrong and maybe the negative reactions will inspire them to put generics on the back and throw in a couple of generic pilot cards.  But that may depend on how far along they are in the production process.  Since they indicated they want get the v1.0 ships reprinted in 2.0 quickly, the next couple of waves may already be too far along to switch gears.

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14 minutes ago, JamesWG said:

My suspicion is that the base will be unique1//unique2, like we sometimes get in single ship expansions.  I really hope I'm wrong 

They will already have a component made for the ship expansion anyway that will have generic on the back, so you'd think they'd just use the same bits.

Actually thinking about it they may just give you the entire cardboard pack from the ship kits, i mean it's less design cost, and can all be done on the same print run that way right?

 

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Posted (edited)

Lol if you are asking for an answer to the missing pilot cards and missing base plates in the AMA on Reddit you will get downvoted. Impressive showing by the apologists.

I was not even asking in an agressive way. Just aksing why they are missing.

Edited by Reaver027

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3 minutes ago, Reaver027 said:

Lol if you are asking for an answer to the missing pilot cards and missing base plates in the AMA on Reddit you will get downvoted. Impressive showing by the apologists.

I was not even asking in an agressive way. Just aksing why they are missing.

Wow that’s really stupid, you’d think if they want people to quit whining about it they’d want at least someone to get the question answered. White knights are dipshits.

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1 hour ago, elfholme said:

I guess we'd have to figure out which conclusion is more likely to be what a "reasonable person" would reach. It seems like there are reasonable people on both sides.

A "reasonable person" standard isn't "all reasonable people must reasonably reach the same conclusion," but rather whether a reasonable person can reasonably reach a conclusion.

In other words, sure, you can can say we're both reasonable ... which still means I'm correct.

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51 minutes ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

Actually thinking about it they may just give you the entire cardboard pack from the ship kits, i mean it's less design cost, and can all be done on the same print run that way right?

That's exactly what they should have done.  For the reasons you mention and others.

It's so reasonable, in fact, that it's what I mistakenly figured they had done, when I was cheerleading for them.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Wow that’s really stupid, you’d think if they want people to quit whining about it they’d want at least someone to get the question answered. White knights are dipshits.

Yeah it is really strange. And i am in favor of the Conversion Kits. Except for this one issue and i wanna know why this was even made an issue. This might sound silly but this is a make it  or break it issue for me to get reinvested into the game. Because this comes down to my trust in the company.

Edited by Reaver027

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4 minutes ago, Reaver027 said:

Yeah it is really strange. And i am in favor of the Conversion Kits. Except for this one issue and i wanna know why this was even made an issue. This might sound silly but this is a make it  or break it issue for me to get reinvested into the game. Because this comes down to my trust in the company.

Agreed and the generic issue doesn’t concern me all that much but I fully understand why people want to know. This ama dictates if I purchase this game or spend money elsewhere. Forcing negative issues out of the pipe is filabuster garbage.

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8 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's exactly what they should have done.  For the reasons you mention and others.

It's so reasonable, in fact, that it's what I mistakenly figured they had done, when I was cheerleading for them.

They probably haven't designed the single ship packs much past wave 1 yet. AT least not on a 'heres the enter contents of the pack' level.

Also simply putting 1-4 (depending on points) copies of the cardboard from each ship pack will include a lot of really obviously unnecessary redundant bits (nobody actually wants 4 Howlrunners, or 4 QQ target lock token sets for example). As well as some marginal cases (like say they put 2x proton torpedoes in the X-Wing pack and the B-Wing pac, do you really want that many copies of the card? let alone if it's in the Core Set, TIE Bomber Punisher, and Starviper packs as well?) Depending how much of that fat they cut it could very well be that they did shave significant cost (which would have been passed on to us) by doing separate runs for the conversion kits. 

 

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1 hour ago, Turtlewing said:

Also simply putting 1-4 (depending on points) copies of the cardboard from each ship pack will include a lot of really obviously unnecessary redundant bits (nobody actually wants 4 Howlrunners, or 4 QQ target lock token sets for example).

I wonder, if we all think really hard, if we can think of anything that could be done with "redundant" cardboard that I might not need?

Say I only own two TIE fighters, but I own four X-wings, and my body doesn't own any X-wings, and owns two TIE fighters ... is there any possible way out of that conundrum?

(Yes, there is, but not as CKs have apparently been created.)

It is far better to have too many of something than not enough ... especially if there is demand for the things you have too many of.

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2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

A "reasonable person" standard isn't "all reasonable people must reasonably reach the same conclusion," but rather whether a reasonable person can reasonably reach a conclusion.

In other words, sure, you can can say we're both reasonable ... which still means I'm correct.

I see that I was unclear. I don’t think your conclusion holds up to a reasonable person standard. Not because it’s not the same conclusion I reached, but because I think it relies too much on assumptions and doesn’t take at face value what the company has written.

However, I can see that being correct is important to you, so I concede the point. I’m probably wrong...since you are a lawyer, you undoubtedly have more experience with the reasonable person standard than I. 

Honestly, I just want to know what I have to do to fly builds that feel like Star Wars ship squads. Right now I’m assuming that all generic squads will still give me that feel like they do in 1e, but I’m not sure. I appreciate this discussion (and others like it) because it helps my planning.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I wonder, if we all think really hard, if we can think of anything that could be done with "redundant" cardboard that I might not need?

Say I only own two TIE fighters, but I own four X-wings, and my body doesn't own any X-wings, and owns two TIE fighters ... is there any possible way out of that conundrum?

(Yes, there is, but not as CKs have apparently been created.)

It is far better to have too many of something than not enough ... especially if there is demand for the things you have too many of.

Incorrect. 

If they kept the ratio of parts to dials the same as the separate ship expansions the situation would be more like this:

I have 2 TIE Defenders. I don't want 2 Countess Ryad, but I have them anyway, and thus was charged for them. I could trade one but anyone who wants it will expect to also get one of my TIE Defender dials with it which I may not want to trade. On top of that there are the redundant tokens like shield, charge, or target lock. I don't need 3 "A" target locks, but nobody will be interested in trading for them, and I get charged for them.  Over an entire faction that adds up.

Doing a separate run of cardboard for the CKs is a no brainer if they're at all worried about price sensitive customers. As they can remove redundant unique pilots, reduce the count of shield tokes, include only one of each target lock token pair, etc.

You can still trade a TIE fighter dial for an X-Wing dial, or work out a 1 of each pilot + dial trade. 

How they designed the CK's is you get the unique parts of one whole ship pack for every ship in the faction plus some extra dials and generics where the devs though they'd do the most good on average. It's not grate. If it were me I'd probably have removed the stats from the base chits in 2.0 and made it one chit and one of each generic pilot card per dial and one of each unique pilot card per faction, then included only 1 of a lot of the ships they included 2 of. But it's not hard to see why they would have chosen not to include more cardboard and deal with even more sticker shock on the price or why they'd throw in more dials to appease the many players who bought 2 of everything somewhat. 

 

At worst you'll have to make trades like "All the Jumpamster bits from my kit for all the VCX bits from your kit" (not ideal I admit). But realistically, it's going to be people on Ebay and such who cracked open a new kit and resold all the parts piecemeal that make up most of the secondary market's supply anyway.

Edited by Turtlewing

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3 hours ago, elfholme said:

but because I think it relies too much on assumptions and doesn’t take at face value what the company has written.

Making assumptions is an entirely normal and reasonable thing for a person to do in response to incomplete information about something. Blind literalism is only really a badge of honour in weird forums from the corners on the internet.

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12 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Making assumptions is an entirely normal and reasonable thing for a person to do in response to incomplete information about something. Blind literalism is only really a badge of honour in weird forums from the corners on the internet.

Quoting cause it won't let me triple like. This is how you internet folks! You have interneted well today.

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1 hour ago, Turtlewing said:

If they kept the ratio of parts to dials the same as the separate ship expansions the situation would be more like this:

I have 2 TIE Defenders. I don't want 2 Countess Ryad, but I have them anyway, and thus was charged for them. I could trade one but anyone who wants it will expect to also get one of my TIE Defender dials

See, you've got it exactly backward.  They should have done the kits such that people aren't trying to trade for a "Ryad," or for a "Glaive," but rather for an entire Defender conversion.

For each ship a faction CK claims to convert, it should have had everything -- cardboard, tokens, bases, dials -- for each ship.  Two Defenders are listed in the CK contents?  It should -- I mean, duh! -- be able to actually convert two Defenders.

If you have three Defenders, and your buddy only has one?  Awesome.  He gives you his extra (or you trade for it.)  That is how it should have been done.

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8 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

See, you've got it exactly backward.  They should have done the kits such that people aren't trying to trade for a "Ryad," or for a "Glaive," but rather for an entire Defender conversion.

For each ship a faction CK claims to convert, it should have had everything -- cardboard, tokens, bases, dials -- for each ship.  Two Defenders are listed in the CK contents?  It should -- I mean, duh! -- be able to actually convert two Defenders.

If you have three Defenders, and your buddy only has one?  Awesome.  He gives you his extra (or you trade for it.)  That is how it should have been done.

 

They should have given you the moon on a stick, to help make it so some people won't have to buy conversion kits.

 

Kong idea.

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5 hours ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

They should have given you the moon on a stick, to help make it so some people won't have to buy conversion kits.

Kong idea.

I'm not sure what this means, except that it's supposed to be insulting to me.

They would sell one conversion for every ship they've sold (that a player wants to convert).  I don't see how that is, in any way, unreasonable.  But, you know, apologists gonna be apologists.  Eventually nearly  everybody grows out of their "The Fountainhead" is a genius book, man!" phase.  It just takes significantly longer for some than for others.

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1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I'm not sure what this means, except that it's supposed to be insulting to me.

They would sell one conversion for every ship they've sold (that a player wants to convert).  I don't see how that is, in any way, unreasonable.  But, you know, apologists gonna be apologists.  Eventually nearly  everybody grows out of their "The Fountainhead" is a genius book, man!" phase.  It just takes significantly longer for some than for others.

 

You are saying you should get a full set of unique pilots for every ship that is "coverted"? It's ridiculous to expect that frankly.

Honestly we are lucky that they are making conversions kits.

They've ended one game and are starting up a new one from scratch, with plans to release all the previous ships again. They have no obligation whatsoever to support people wanting to change to 2.0.

They've finished 1.0 you have everything you need to play 1.0 and they are in no way removing anything from you by doing that, you have a full game packed full of stuff.

But they ARE making a conversion kit and for  pretty reasonable (per ship) price that covers a lot of people needs, and it was impossible to cater for every single individuals needs. 

I have no need to apologise for FFG and don't have particular desire to defend anybody's money making practices, i just don't like seeing people being entitled and angry and utterly irrational about things, it irks me.

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50 minutes ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

I have no need to apologise for FFG and don't have particular desire to defend anybody's money making practices, i just don't like seeing people being entitled and angry and utterly irrational about things, it irks me.

If you actually knew what you were talking about, rather than simply being a knee-jerk apologist for any BS FFG is pulling, you'd know that I have been a cheerleader for 2.0 since well before it was announced, and well into the time following the announcement.   (And I still am, apart from completely reasonable criticisms about their misleading information regarding Conversion Kits.)  I know it's a foreign concept to some people, but I'm actually capable of absorbing new information and incorporating it into my opinions.

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16 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

See, you've got it exactly backward.  They should have done the kits such that people aren't trying to trade for a "Ryad," or for a "Glaive," but rather for an entire Defender conversion.

For each ship a faction CK claims to convert, it should have had everything -- cardboard, tokens, bases, dials -- for each ship.  Two Defenders are listed in the CK contents?  It should -- I mean, duh! -- be able to actually convert two Defenders.

If you have three Defenders, and your buddy only has one?  Awesome.  He gives you his extra (or you trade for it.)  That is how it should have been done.

So if I understand you correctly, you would have preferred if the conversion kits had a complete set of bases and pilot cards for each dial in the kit?  So if a ship has 3 dials there should be 3 bases and pilot cards for each unique pilot?  And the bases need to arranged in such a way that they are easily split up such that you can easily package a dial and a full set of bases?

While this sounds nice in theory I think this is horrible idea for practical purposes.

Lets look at the Rebel Kit since we know the most about it.  To do what you want, the bases would have to be something like this, assuming the number of dials don't change.

 

6 - T-65: Biggs//Blue, Garven//Red, Wedge//Garven, Biggs//Blue, Garven//Red, Wedge//Garven

4 - Y-Wing: Dutch//Gold, Horton//Gray, Dutch//Gold, Horton//Gray

6 - A-Wing: Arvel//Green, Jake//Phoenix, Arvel//Green, Jake//Phoenix, Arvel//Green, Jake//Phoenix

4 - B-Wing: Braylen//Blue, Ten//Blade, Braylen//Blue, Ten//Blade

8 - Z-95: Cracken//Bandit, Blount//Tala, Cracken//Bandit, Blount//Tala, Cracken//Bandit, Blount//Tala, Cracken//Bandit, Blount//Tala

4 - Auzituck: Low//Defender, Wulff//Defender, Low//Defender, Wulff//Defender

4 - Attack Shuttle : Ezra//Zeb, Hera//Sabine, Ezra//Zeb, Hera//Sabine

4 - Sheatipede: AP-5//Ezra, Fenn//Zeb, AP-5//Ezra, Fenn//Zeb

6 - HWK: Jan//Scout, Kyle//Roark, Roark//Scout, Jan//Scout, Kyle//Roark, Roark//Scout

4 - TIE/ln: Rex//Zeb, Ezra//Sabine, Rex//Zeb, Ezra//Sabine

4 - E-Wing: Corran//Knave, Gavin//Rogue, Corran//Knave, Gavin//Rogue

4 - U-Wing: Cassian//Heff, Bodhi//Blue, Cassian//Heff, Bodhi//Blue

4 - K-Wing: Miranda//Warden, Esege//Warden, Miranda//Warden, Esege//Warden

4 - Arc-170: Norra//Ibtisam, Shara//Garven, Norra//Ibtisam, Shara//Garven

4 - YT-1300: Han//Chewie, Lando//ORS, Han//Chewie, Lando//ORS

4 - VCX: Hera//Chopper, Kanan//Lothal, Hera//Chopper, Kanan//Lothal

4 - YT-2400: Dash//Fringer, Leebo//Fringer, Dash//Fringer, Leebo//Fringer

Total: 78 bases

 

So you've almost doubled the number of bases in the kit now.  And I think all the large and medium bases do double in number.  Similarly the number of pilot cards in the kit will increase somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5x (I didn't feel like doing the math here, since cards are cheaper to produce and take less room).

With all this additional cardboard, in a bigger and heavier box, what do you think the conversion kit pricing would be?  $75-80?  That would not make people happy and there would be tons of complaints about all the duplicates. 

And I'm guessing marketing mandated a maximum of $50 for the kit pricing.  So what would have happened is they would have cut a bunch of things out.  Many large/medium base ships would have dropped to one dial.  The Z's and A's would probably drop to two dials.  So we'd end up being able to convert fewer ships for our $50 under this system.  Yes, it would be a lot easier to trade/sell extras, but this is not a trade off I would have been happy with.

 

Disclaimer - I'm a casual player with a small collection, around 13, 14 ships from each of the original three factions.  The way they have done the kits more than meets my needs, so I may be biased.  But I think FFG was being pulled in many directions here and had to make compromises.  Overall I think they've done a good job in putting the kits together.  Though I do think they should have tried to figure out a way to get two more bases ( Bandit//Tala and Green//Phoenix) and the 4 associated Pilot cards into the kit.  There would still be the issue of not being able to run certain pairs of uniques for some ships, but I think that is a lesser issue than shorting the number of swarmable generics.

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