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mazz0

Epic 2.0

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So, I bought a C-ROC yesterday as it was so cheap, and it got me wondering how much they're going to sell epic conversion kits for, and *that* got me wondering if they're going to make big changes to epic, given that apparently a lot of people don't much care for it in its current form, and that it's not coming at the same time as the rest of 2.0.  Maybe they'll make it more like Armada for huge ships, so you have to plan actions several turn in advance?

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They stated they wanted to give Epic the love it deserves.  I think it will come back and be a lot better than it was/is.  I also think they will probably make some sort of format for it, too.  

The one thing I've been saying Epic needs is more actions for the big ships.  They should have crew that can allow for multiple actions per section.  Or at least pay for crew that allows you to do more actions for each section.    There are a lot of interesting actions for ships (like Jam) that never get used due to the fact that everyone is either Target Locking, Reinforcing, or replenishing shields.

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I've got good feelings about the direction of Epic in 2E. They haven't mentioned anything solid yet, other than there will be a future announcement about how the 1E ships will convert to 2E. While that is not much to go on, it means that they are actively thinking about Epic and what to do with it, what to keep, what to change, etc., which means its going to get a serious development pass. I am concerned that prior to that, there was a developer statement that a 2nd S&V Epic ship was not in development, which is a major oversight, but that may have changed or will change when they do the Epic pass.

Also, the reduction of overall offensive power, removal of TLT, etc., will likely result in huge ships lasting longer on the table, so more fun there.

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6 hours ago, kris40k said:

I've got good feelings about the direction of Epic in 2E. They haven't mentioned anything solid yet, other than there will be a future announcement about how the 1E ships will convert to 2E. While that is not much to go on, it means that they are actively thinking about Epic and what to do with it, what to keep, what to change, etc., which means its going to get a serious development pass. I am concerned that prior to that, there was a developer statement that a 2nd S&V Epic ship was not in development, which is a major oversight, but that may have changed or will change when they do the Epic pass.

Also, the reduction of overall offensive power, removal of TLT, etc., will likely result in huge ships lasting longer on the table, so more fun there.

They're just waiting to do the cool vertical ship from Solo! :D

Edited by mazz0

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Huge ships in 1.0 are more for the vanity of "OMG HUGE MODEL!!" than they are effective.

Theyre all geared to behave like a support ship, but they suck massive balls at doing it. Equal points of small ships compared to a huge ship is always superior, and thats the problem.

 

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6 hours ago, mazz0 said:

So, I bought a C-ROC yesterday as it was so cheap, and it got me wondering how much they're going to sell epic conversion kits for, and *that* got me wondering if they're going to make big changes to epic, given that apparently a lot of people don't much care for it in its current form, and that it's not coming at the same time as the rest of 2.0.  Maybe they'll make it more like Armada for huge ships, so you have to plan actions several turn in advance?



There are many discussions about these very sorts of "Epic in 2.0" questions on the Epic Play sub-forum here on the FFG X-Wing boards.  I'd recommend going and reading those.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

Huge ships in 1.0 are more for the vanity of "OMG HUGE MODEL!!" than they are effective.



False.

I've had the luxury over the past five years of playing in six Team Epic tournaments, sometimes with as many as 12 Teams present.  That's not a huge sample size, but it's probably one of the higher experiences with Epic Tournament Events.  Many of the lists at these things had no Huge Ships (e.g. Four Brobots, 16 "TIEs" all with Stealth Device, six K-Wings and a bunch of Y-Wings, etc.).  Nonetheless, every one of these events was won by a list that did include a CR90 or Raider.  I've also played in four side Epic Events put on by FFG at Origins/Gencon/Worlds, and while typically single-round (one game) events, I've won all of my games at these little events while using a CR90.

The huge ships are potent powerhouses (as they should be, as the centerpieces of the format) when they are built well and most importantly deployed and supported well with the rest of  a list.  But they also take a bit of practice to get the best way to deploy and support them within a list, and most people don't play enough games of Epic to get to this level of understanding or appreciation for the format.


Some guy puts some hastily upgraded CR90 onto the basement table and feeds it right to his opponent's super-jousting-block and he's convinced Epic Ships suck, and this sort of experience gets shared just enough on the forums to make it become this "folk wisdom" viewpoint that Epic Ships are under-efficient, which has not at all been my experience with the format in a "competitive" setting.  It's like how back in Waves 2-4, most people used to complain that the Falcon was terrible and that you couldn't spend half of your list on one attack.  Bear in mind... back then, most people would just drop their Falcon across from their opponent's Howl-Swarm and fly in and joust against the swarm.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

Huge ships in 1.0 are more for the vanity of "OMG HUGE MODEL!!" than they are effective.

Theyre all geared to behave like a support ship, but they suck massive balls at doing it. Equal points of small ships compared to a huge ship is always superior, and thats the problem.

 

Find me 5 attacks 4 attack dice each each turn for 123 pts with 26 hp. 

 

The corvettes can be built very efficiently. Lots of people just throw sub optimal upgrades on them and then say they're bad ships. They can be some lean focussed fire in an epic game (not unlike ruthlessness tie/d glaives) 

 

Pair them with annoying to kill fighters like gunboats or lwf ugr bombers and you can keep most lists tangled as long as you need to do w/e you want with a corvette. 

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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The biggest issue in Epic IMO is the energy mechanic. It's an easy trap to load your ship up with all sorts of energy-sucking upgrades that leave you starved, especially if your opponent brings some Ion weapons. Ion damage vs epic ships was especially poorly planned, as loading a ship with Ion tokens only meant that it had no penalty for going full speed at you because it wasn't going to generate energy either way.

Hopefully 2.0 sidesteps that completely. Hardpoint weapons should just have regenerating charges, and varying charge capacities and costs. Cargo and crew upgrades can alter regen speeds. If Energy is still going to be a thing, then it should just be a flat, high-numbered figure that you can allocate each round. If speed is going to be a factor, then make it so you have to spend energy to execute high-speed maneuvers.

I'm also hoping for a bit more logic in the arcs and actions. The CR-90 was designed as a broadside ship, but that also means its Reinforce can't protect it well.

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1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

Huge ships in 1.0 are more for the vanity of "OMG HUGE MODEL!!" than they are effective.

Theyre all geared to behave like a support ship, but they suck massive balls at doing it. Equal points of small ships compared to a huge ship is always superior, and thats the problem.

 

I don't know what y'all are talking about, my gozanti averages about 4 kills per game. Record is 7.

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3 minutes ago, That One Guy said:

I don't know what y'all are talking about, my gozanti averages about 4 kills per game. Record is 7.

Sorry for doble post, but how do you kit your gozanti?

 

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



False.

I've had the luxury over the past five years of playing in six Team Epic tournaments, sometimes with as many as 12 Teams present.  That's not a huge sample size, but it's probably one of the higher experiences with Epic Tournament Events.  Many of the lists at these things had no Huge Ships (e.g. Four Brobots, 16 "TIEs" all with Stealth Device, six K-Wings and a bunch of Y-Wings, etc.).  Nonetheless, every one of these events was won by a list that did include a CR90 or Raider.  I've also played in four side Epic Events put on by FFG at Origins/Gencon/Worlds, and while typically single-round (one game) events, I've won all of my games at these little events while using a CR90.

The huge ships are potent powerhouses (as they should be, as the centerpieces of the format) when they are built well and most importantly deployed and supported well with the rest of  a list.  But they also take a bit of practice to get the best way to deploy and support them within a list, and most people don't play enough games of Epic to get to this level of understanding or appreciation for the format.


Some guy puts some hastily upgraded CR90 onto the basement table and feeds it right to his opponent's super-jousting-block and he's convinced Epic Ships suck, and this sort of experience gets shared just enough on the forums to make it become this "folk wisdom" viewpoint that Epic Ships are under-efficient, which has not at all been my experience with the format in a "competitive" setting.  It's like how back in Waves 2-4, most people used to complain that the Falcon was terrible and that you couldn't spend half of your list on one attack.  Bear in mind... back then, most people would just drop their Falcon across from their opponent's Howl-Swarm and fly in and joust against the swarm.

I've won every Epic tournament I've ever played in (2) by spamming A-Wings and T-70s with Deadeye, ordnance and Guidance Chips, + a couple support ships. So anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

The TO in my local area now actually has implemented rules that require a huge ship be in people's lists when Epic events are held because of me. 

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33 minutes ago, DerRitter said:

Sorry for doble post, but how do you kit your gozanti?

 

I'm not him but I've loaded gozantis with the turret, automated protocols, krennic, courier, clamps.

(Bonus)Put youngster with calculation and wampa to receive krennics prototype. At 83 pts this combo has absolutely wrecked.

1-2 autodamage a turn from wampa til it pops. Also giving the gozanti locks thanks to krennic.

Let's you coordinate and reinforce/recover every turn to ensure that calculation focus is handy or dodge arcs at epic ps2.

Throws mediocre dice but no donut. and low ps means the token stacks are gone and it'll chip in. Spends it's lock freely cause wampa keeps handing locks until death.  

 

 

If you're not proxying krennic then ops spec is great to have. 

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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15 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I've won every Epic tournament I've ever played in (2) by spamming A-Wings and T-70s with Deadeye, ordnance and Guidance Chips, + a couple support ships. So anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

The TO in my local area now actually has implemented rules that require a huge ship be in people's lists when Epic events are held because of me. 

Nah the new epic tourney rules made having an epic mandatory after the croc release. Only reason it wasn't in earlier was one faction never had any epic to field.

 

Also x wings are very decent in epic. Not raider good but efficient. it's pretty well accepted in epic circles that efficient generic x wing = the benchmark to meet. So I'm not sure what doing well with the baseline good contributes to this other than "corvettes aren't the only good ships in epic"

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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34 minutes ago, DerRitter said:

Sorry for doble post, but how do you kit your gozanti?

 

The last time I ran Team Epic, we had two Gozantis. One had a turret, Shield Techs, Darth Vader, Gas, Engineering Team and the Vector title with Optimized Generators. The other had the turret, a shield tech, a construction droid, automated protocols, gas and the Suppressor title.

They were backed by a Sensor Jamming Captain Kagi to eat target locks, Major Striden with an Operations Specialist and Inspiring Recruit to manage stress and relay Coordinates, and a host of TIE/D Deltas with Ions and TIE/SFs with Accuracy Correctors.

It was murder.

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Well I can see either a conversion pack in similar form in which it has either ALL epic ships in cardboard format, or a conversion pack that contains a "repainted" transport brown to be a scum GR-45 transport (but could also be used as a Rebel GR-75) and have all conversion components.

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1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

The TO in my local area now actually has implemented rules that require a huge ship be in people's lists when Epic events are held because of me. 


Well, for what it's worth, there are new official Epic Rules from FFG as of a few months ago.  You now officially must include an Epic ship, and you're also capped at four copies of any given EPT or Secondary Weapon, for instance.  So gone are the days of 12 TLT lists or 8x Gamma Vet with Deadeye + Ordnance + GC or a Roarke list with like a dozen Swarm Tactics.  Not that I didn't put down those sorts of lists with my CR90 list anyways, but I think a lot of players dreaded playing those sort of "pay to win" spam lists, so officially list cannot milk the same EPT or Secondary Weapon to the degree they could before.

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48 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Well I can see either a conversion pack in similar form in which it has either ALL epic ships in cardboard format, or a conversion pack that contains a "repainted" transport brown to be a scum GR-45 transport (but could also be used as a Rebel GR-75) and have all conversion components.



I can't see FFG porting Epic ships into 2.0, I just don't see how they'd do it and I can't imagine it's a high enough priority to take up production time and resources away from LEGION and other 2.0 X-WING stuff.   Bear in mind, Armada, one of the top five grossing miniatures games, hasn't even had any news about it's next release for over a year.  Sure, at announcements they say they love Armada and that 'something big is coming,' but then it's crickets crickets crickets for a year.  So, while it's great that FFG loves Epic and wants to bring it to 2.0, I'll believe it when I see it...


They certainly cannot expect Epic Fans to rebuy 2.0 repackages of each of the Epic ships, because they are too expensive and no one needs two CR-90 models.  So, I think it'll have to be an Epic conversion kit all the way, but I doubt they'd even print 2.0 Epic Ship re-releases ... the only possible customers would be those who never bought the Epic ships in the first run-through.  So that means either continuing to produce small amounts of 1.0 Epic Ships to be used by new players wanting to convert (who then also have to buy the conversion kit) or else remaking and repackaging 2.0 Epic ships, realizing the potential customer base for them is incredibly slim.  Both seem like suboptimal options, from a marketing and production standpoint...

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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I am confident that we’ll see Epic incorporated into 2.0, FFG people have underlined the commitment to do so.  As with X-Wing 1.0, I’m sure the lag time will be lnger than with normal waves.  I think they’ll need shipless conversion kits, possibly by faction to get existing player up to speed.  I’d like to see a second Scum ship, but I don’t see being able to force different faction players buying it just to convert their ships.  After what they did to X-Wing with the 2.0 rules, I can’t wait to see what is in store for the epic ships.  Especially since all the building details will be tweakable via the app.

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13 minutes ago, RookiePilot said:

I am confident that we’ll see Epic incorporated into 2.0, FFG people have underlined the commitment to do so.  As with X-Wing 1.0, I’m sure the lag time will be lnger than with normal waves.  I think they’ll need shipless conversion kits, possibly by faction to get existing player up to speed.  I’d like to see a second Scum ship, but I don’t see being able to force different faction players buying it just to convert their ships.  After what they did to X-Wing with the 2.0 rules, I can’t wait to see what is in store for the epic ships.  Especially since all the building details will be tweakable via the app.

Scum carrier/corvette is the dream. Less hardpoints than the other corvettes (2 instead of 3) and max 2 docked ships. 

 

Here's to hoping.

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