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CaptainRocket

Everything I KNOW and DONT KNOW about LOS and cover...

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The following chart illustrates cover according to Rules Ref 1.1.0:
(Now also in printable PDF )
igexGET.png

(Now I gotta update the chart version number now that the changes are in the rules not just the FAQ)

The following chart illustrates cover according to Rules Reference 1.0

9ksVSaS.png

Edited by CaptainRocket

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Hey

why do you look at the back of the Base in 22-25 and on all others not?

if you look only at the full front view you see the whole figure for 23-25 = no cover.

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then you have to determine the cover for behinde the object and for standing on it and rule it seperatly. so no cover for standing on it for at-st for example. 

 

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Really nice work, that’s great!

One nitpick if I had to make one. It would be nice if in the explanation text at the start you used proper game rule terminology for the defenders as well(I.e. your checking to the defender, not the ‘target’).

Then one question. The examples make the next point clear, but can it be worded succinctly enough to put in the explanation that you are checking the line to each mini in the defending unit?

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2 hours ago, Thoras said:

One nitpick if I had to make one. It would be nice if in the explanation text at the start you used proper game rule terminology for the defenders as well(I.e. your checking to the defender, not the ‘target’).

And it's not "blocked"?

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4 hours ago, Thoras said:

Really nice work, that’s great!

One nitpick if I had to make one. It would be nice if in the explanation text at the start you used proper game rule terminology for the defenders as well(I.e. your checking to the defender, not the ‘target’).

Then one question. The examples make the next point clear, but can it be worded succinctly enough to put in the explanation that you are checking the line to each mini in the defending unit?

 

2 hours ago, DerBaer said:

And it's not "blocked"?

Thanks! That's both good feedback - I'll update later today...

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7 hours ago, Trevor79 said:

why do you look at the back of the Base in 22-25 and on all others not?

if you look only at the full front view you see the whole figure for 23-25 = no cover.

 

6 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

"part of the mini/base is covered" so it's not about looking at the front or base of the mini, but actually depending on the angle, the broadest area changes.

What Deuzerre said is right.

6 hours ago, Trevor79 said:

then you have to determine the cover for behinde the object and for standing on it and rule it seperatly. so no cover for standing on it for at-st for example. 

Well, that's one possible solution... but is not explicitly how the "Rules As Written" work, and I can see getting into debates with other players during the pregame if they haven't looked at these diagrams.

Part of why I'm making these is so that I have diagrams to back up my recommendations for how cover should be declared, and hopefully also get clarification from the designer.

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2 hours ago, DerBaer said:

In cases 3, 13 and 14 I would have applied cover. The line from base center to base center goes through cover.

You are correct, however in the emails the designer has clarified that the cover check is only triggered if first the LOS must be at least partially obscured.

Quote

[Designer's email rule clarification also]

The player checks line of sight from the attacker's unit leader to each mini in the defending unit. If any part of the defending mini, including its base, is blocked by a piece of terrain or other mini the player traces an imaginary line from the center of the base of the attacker's unit leader to the center of the base of the defending mini.

If that were not the case, an ATST an inch away from a barricade, shooting at a trooper in the open a foot away, would still have to give the trooper cover, which is patently ridiculous.

TL;DR : 

The RRG implies that cover is only evaluated along the ground and even small cover projects an infinite frustum of protection.

The FAQ/Emails clarify that tall/higher units can and should be able to see "over" terrain.

However, I still have uncertainty when it comes to shooting at units above.

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@CaptainRocket, very nice diagrams. One rather small quibble: on number 8, as you've drawn it there should be 2/3 attack dice, not 1/3. Because the mini farthest to the left can actually see a part of the defender's base (if you can see any part of a defender, you can contribute dice. It's not center-to-center.). So you could either change it to 2/3 attack dice, or move the mini "down" in the diagram to remove any ambiguity.

lyQCOLF.jpg

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4 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

@CaptainRocket, very nice diagrams. One rather small quibble: on number 8, as you've drawn it there should be 2/3 attack dice, not 1/3. Because the mini farthest to the left can actually see a part of the defender's base (if you can see any part of a defender, you can contribute dice. It's not center-to-center.). So you could either change it to 2/3 attack dice, or move the mini "down" in the diagram to remove any ambiguity.

lyQCOLF.jpg

Good catch! Thanks I'll fix that too!

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5 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

You are correct, however in the emails the designer has clarified that ...

 

Actually, I hate the current situation. Each time, I believe I understood the rules, someone's telling me: "Yeah, there was that e-mail by Alex. He said the rules are different now."

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1 hour ago, DerBaer said:

Actually, I hate the current situation. Each time, I believe I understood the rules, someone's telling me: "Yeah, there was that e-mail by Alex. He said the rules are different now."

I feel ya!

You know maybe I should make 3 versions of the diagram... 

One for the Learn to Play guide.

One for the RRG as published.

One for the Alex Davy emails.

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On 6/1/2018 at 4:51 PM, CaptainRocket said:

You are correct, however in the emails the designer has clarified that the cover check is only triggered if first the LOS must be at least partially obscured.

If that were not the case, an ATST an inch away from a barricade, shooting at a trooper in the open a foot away, would still have to give the trooper cover, which is patently ridiculous.

TL;DR : 

The RRG implies that cover is only evaluated along the ground and even small cover projects an infinite frustum of protection.

The FAQ/Emails clarify that tall/higher units can and should be able to see "over" terrain.

However, I still have uncertainty when it comes to shooting at units above.

Thanks but can you post the source of this email or a pic, please. It will be really appreciate by italian community.

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On 6/1/2018 at 2:28 PM, DerBaer said:

In cases 3, 13 and 14 I would have applied cover. The line from base center to base center goes through cover.

Totaly agree. Rules are written very clear for me.

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3 hours ago, Nymlyr said:

Tottaly agree. Rules are written very clear for me.

It's been corrected in an e-mail as "rules as intended" because it made no sense in many situations.

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6 hours ago, luca89gladio said:

Thanks but can you post the source of this email or a pic, please. It will be really appreciate by italian community.

There are quite a few emails consolidated in this thread. Someone in any reasonable sized community should really be familiar with this forum and keep up to date on all threads. It can help quite a bit.

 

 

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Ghost Dancer Helpfully typed it up for us:

Cover & LOS

The rules on RR page 8 is to help players determine what terrain elements will provide cover during the game, but is determined before the game begins. You DO NOT use the 50% rule during the game.

The rules for determining obscured minis will be updated as follows:

The player checks line of sight from the attacker’s unit to each mini in the defending unit. If any part of a defending mini, including its base, is blocked by a piece of terrain or another mini, the player then traces an imaginary line from the centre of the base of the attacker’s unit leader to the centre of the base of the defending mini. If the imaginary line crosses either that piece of terrain or the base of the mini that blocked line of sight, that mini is obscured. The player repeats this process for each mini in the defender to determine how many of those minis are obscured.

This prevents immersion-breaking scenarios. Essentially it’s a 2 step process:

  1. 1.      Check line of sight; if the mini is behind a piece of terrain but loS is not blocked to any part of that mini, the mini is not obscured.
  2. 2.      Draw an imaginary line from the centre of the base of the attacker’s unit leader to the centre of the base of the defending mini. If the imaginary line crosses a piece of terrain or another unit’s base, that mini is obscured.

If at least half the defender’s minis are obscured, the defender has cover. The type of cover (none, light, heavy) should have been determined for each type of miniature at the start of the game.

Area terrain is a flat template decorated with removable elements (e.g. a forest). True line of sight is not used for the removable elements, instead, the entire base should be treated as the border of the terrain. A normal forest does not block line of sight. However, you may have a dense forest that blocks LoS when it is between two units , but not blocking LoS if a unit’s leader is within the forest.

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On 5/31/2018 at 6:17 PM, CaptainRocket said:

But 24 for a giant walker (or imagine an airspeeder) seems absurd...

And 25 makes no sense since you are literally exposing the same amount of the target as 24 !

How's it exposing the same amount of the target? Picture yourself as the person shooting. You'd barely be able to see the walker.

 

Update: Wait, I think I see your point. Since the Cover 2 doesn't give the walker any benefit, then it doesn't hinder the LOS.

But in reality the Cover 2 would block the Attacker from having a clear LOS to the Walker.

Edited by Lumberjack Nick

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19 hours ago, Lumberjack Nick said:

How's it exposing the same amount of the target? Picture yourself as the person shooting. You'd barely be able to see the walker.

Update: Wait, I think I see your point. Since the Cover 2 doesn't give the walker any benefit, then it doesn't hinder the LOS.

But in reality the Cover 2 would block the Attacker from having a clear LOS to the Walker.

I made some mistakes in the picture and it's confusing.

I'm gonna do an update in the next few days...

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