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thorrk

Duty should be restricted before it is released

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10 hours ago, twinstarbmc said:

As it is right now, Duty -- a max-one-copy Conflict card, that you have about a 50/50 chance of seeing over the course of a match and is in no way, shape, or form any more game-breaking than anything else out there at the moment -- will be in 99% Scorpion decks. If it is placed on the Restricted list, it will in 0% of Scorpion decks. This is a tremendous overreaction which, frankly, is worse for the game as a whole than the card itself is.

I hate Scorpion. HAAAAAAAAAATE. Playing against the clan makes me want to flip tables and punch faces. But I want this card to see play, because it's a good card. Note: I said "good." Not "insane and it needs to be nerfed now now now."

 In my experience you usually draw more than 50% of your deck. 5 turns of bid 5 plus 4 to start is already 24. Add to that Secret Cache, Niece, Sincerity dude, the Earth ring. I think 75% is a much more realistic number than 50%.

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2 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

 In my experience you usually draw more than 50% of your deck. 5 turns of bid 5 plus 4 to start is already 24. Add to that Secret Cache, Niece, Sincerity dude, the Earth ring. I think 75% is a much more realistic number than 50%.

That's 29. But if you bid 5 for 5 turns without getting dishonored out, you're really lucky.

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That's 29. But if you bid 5 for 5 turns without getting dishonored out, you're really lucky.

With city your don't, that's how the game works. And if you start bidding low to have a 50% chance to get blown out do you risk it? I would not, just like I would not run into 25%  restoration of balance with 10 cards in hand.

Also people now play test of skills in scorp so they draw more than 30 cards a game.

Edited by thorrk

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You're still applying the current meta to a future card, Pierre. I agree that if this card entered the card pool right now, it could potentially be a significant issue. However, we have 170+ other new cards to shake thing up. The environment will change, decks will evolve, players will adapt. Whether Duty still becomes an issue remains to be seen, but given that the Scorpion ToS deck wasn't even on most people's radar before Birmingham, who knows what will be dominant in six months time?

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1 minute ago, Hinomura said:

given that the Scorpion ToS deck wasn't even on most people's radar before Birmingham, who knows what will be dominant in six months time?

Hopefully not Scorpion ? ?

Jokes aside ( it was a joke, I swear ^^), that is indeed the correct stance to wait & see. It would be crazy strong if it was released now but could really be strong or even just good later on.

I found the card flavorful at least, they did a good job with that ^^

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2 hours ago, Hinomura said:

You're still applying the current meta to a future card, Pierre. I agree that if this card entered the card pool right now, it could potentially be a significant issue. However, we have 170+ other new cards to shake thing up. The environment will change, decks will evolve, players will adapt. Whether Duty still becomes an issue remains to be seen, but given that the Scorpion ToS deck wasn't even on most people's radar before Birmingham, who knows what will be dominant in six months time?

This is not a convincing argument. More cards will not change the fundamentals of Scorpion's dominance. The best case scenario is that Lion or Unicorn swarm actually gets good enough that we end up in a triangle where they beat Scorpion and Crab, Scorpion and Crab continue to beat everyone else, and everyone else beats swarm.

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32 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

The best case scenario is that Lion or Unicorn swarm actually gets good enough that we end up in a triangle where they beat Scorpion and Crab, Scorpion and Crab continue to beat everyone else, and everyone else beats swarm.

And then Scorpion will find themselves sitting on a card that does nothing against their worst matchups, so they’ll probably change it for something that actually helps them against Uni and Lion, because they can still beat the other clans without Duty. 

Just an example of how meta can change. 

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12 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

And then Scorpion will find themselves sitting on a card that does nothing against their worst matchups, so they’ll probably change it for something that actually helps them against Uni and Lion, because they can still beat the other clans without Duty. 

Just an example of how meta can change. 

Nah. If it basically decides the mirror, Crab, and is useful against voltron cutting it will be a net negative.

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50 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

This is not a convincing argument. More cards will not change the fundamentals of Scorpion's dominance. The best case scenario is that Lion or Unicorn swarm actually gets good enough that we end up in a triangle where they beat Scorpion and Crab, Scorpion and Crab continue to beat everyone else, and everyone else beats swarm.

What "fundamentals" are you talking about?  Why would you assume that new cards (or RL changes) won't change Scorpion's dominance?  Is that based on some kind of inside information... or just a random guess?  Also, why is the best case Lion and Unicorn beating Scorpion and losing to everyone else... another random guess?  Concretely, voltron type decks are at a disadvantage against Scorpion (in particular due to Scorpion having good character removal/control tools)... but that doesn't indicate anything else that you've highlighted.

 

Thaddok

 

PS: If you want a prediction... I would guess that Lion and Crane will eventually end up with the best matchups against Scorpion... lion with honor/military swarm, and Crane with honor/political control.

 

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5 minutes ago, Thaddok said:

What "fundamentals" are you talking about?  Why would you assume that new cards (or RL changes) won't change Scorpion's dominance?  Is that based on some kind of inside information... or just a random guess?  Also, why is the best case Lion and Unicorn beating Scorpion and losing to everyone else... another random guess?  Concretely, voltron type decks are at a disadvantage against Scorpion (in particular due to Scorpion having good character removal/control tools)... but that doesn't indicate anything else that you've highlighted.

 

Thaddok

 

PS: If you want a prediction... I would guess that Lion and Crane will eventually end up with the best matchups against Scorpion... lion with honor/military swarm, and Crane with honor/political control.

 

The best province line up, the ability to threaten both conquest and dishonor, above average characters, the best stronghold. None of the spoilers from the new cycle challenge any of that, except the Lion stronghold if it can produce multiple attacks with 3+ dudes where the reliance on using conflict cards that stop one dude each becomes a liability. Voltron will conversely be good against swarm because one 6/6 dude being in every conflict will make breaking provinces difficult for the swarm deck.

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1 hour ago, HamHamJ2 said:

None of the spoilers from the new cycle challenge any of that, except the Lion stronghold if it can produce multiple attacks with 3+ dudes where the reliance on using conflict cards that stop one dude each becomes a liability. 

Dat new Crane conflict Courtier though...

That being said, I think Duty is a design choice to create games that you'll talk about just like Ujiaki or CB5F. High variance, not-good-till-its-OP cards that can have a massive impact. I don't remember where I've heard this from, but a designer of Hearthstone was talking about creating random and chaotic cards that bring unusual situations to the board, either weird or just epic, that transforms a moment into a story. And these stories create attachment and references to the game, tying the community together. However, some of these examples tilt on the NPE side of things when you are the 'victim' (except CB5F, with the risk cancels deserves it's effect / cost).  

Speaking of the card, I like it; though it's not going to fit into a Dishonor deck. I think it would have been less of a blow-out if it ignored all your Dishonored status tokens for a turn (as Scorpions 'sacrifice' their honor for their Duty). Or maybe sacrifice a Dishonored Character to draw cards. I really like the concept but I'm not sure if the effect is going to be OP at least 1/3 times you draw it. A version of 'Duty' could have required the Imperial Favor, slotting out perfectly with the theme and flavor text. 

 

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Yup, you're right - I spaced on there being three copies of (almost) each card in the Clan Pack. The actual number is 148 - 120 from the six Elemental Cycle packs, and 28 from the Clan Pack. Which is still a not inconsiderable addition to the card pool.

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4 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

The best province line up, the ability to threaten both conquest and dishonor, above average characters, the best stronghold. None of the spoilers from the new cycle challenge any of that, except the Lion stronghold if it can produce multiple attacks with 3+ dudes where the reliance on using conflict cards that stop one dude each becomes a liability. Voltron will conversely be good against swarm because one 6/6 dude being in every conflict will make breaking provinces difficult for the swarm deck.

Are you even reading what you're writing?

Your expectation is that it is impossible for any of those things to change with more cards from the upcoming cycle?  Are you completely confused... or are you really expecting all provinces, strongholds, and new characters to all be guaranteed to be worse than what Scorpion currently have?  Also, why would it be impossible for some other faction (likely Crane and/or Phoenix thematically) to be able to threaten both conquest and dishonor with more card support?

... sigh, no wonder the game designers ignore the forums.

 

Thaddok

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9 minutes ago, Thaddok said:

Are you even reading what you're writing?

Your expectation is that it is impossible for any of those things to change with more cards from the upcoming cycle?  Are you completely confused... or are you really expecting all provinces, strongholds, and new characters to all be guaranteed to be worse than what Scorpion currently have?  Also, why would it be impossible for some other faction (likely Crane and/or Phoenix thematically) to be able to threaten both conquest and dishonor with more card support?

... sigh, no wonder the game designers ignore the forums.

 

Thaddok

We know two of the new provinces. One at least is above average, but not as good as Shameful or Secret Cache. Frankly a neutral air province that was better than Secret Cache would be super busted and the one we have spoiled is not it. It would take several OP provinces in specific elements to let anyone else match Scorpion's Seeker of Void lineup, which is unlikely. I guess everyone could get OP strongholds in this cycle, or characters that are all OP. But again those seem unlikely. 

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The majority of the time Duty will be legal, Scorpion will not be Seeker of the Void.  However, they still have plenty of options at this years worlds for role choices.  We also haven't even seen what they can do with BC, as they did not have a Keeper role this entire year. 

 

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The problem with a card like Duty is that it further restricts deck design due to its all purposeness. Being able to get a 3+ (4 draw over your opponent minus Duty itself, possibly more cards if you can get your dial above 5) card advantage on a late game turn by using it during the draw step is such a valuable opportunity for any deck design that it's an auto-include for any Scorpion player. Even if your opponent has cards that can block it (despite its weak counterplay, which is another issue I have with this card for another rant), through application of other cards the Scorp player can use to diffuse or eliminate those cards (many of which also serve valuable functions beyond just insuring Duty gets played), Duty is still too good to pass up. Your typical Scorp player no longer has a 40 card conflict deck to design, but instead a 36 card conflict deck + 3 restricted cards  + Duty.

The more we see cards like this one, the more the design meta of this game will stagnate.

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Not all Scorpion players bid five every turn. Not all Scorpion players will play this. It's not an auto-include.

It IS very good in the decks that will play it, and maybe even too good, but we need to see actual data on that before reaching a definite conclusion.

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17 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

Not all Scorpion players bid five every turn. Not all Scorpion players will play this. It's not an auto-include.

It IS very good in the decks that will play it, and maybe even too good, but we need to see actual data on that before reaching a definite conclusion.

Its a 1 off that slots into any Scorpion deck as a safety valve for if things go wrong.  If they aren't at least trying to find a space for it, they're building their deck wrong.

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I respectfully disagree. I do appreciate you pointing out how to build my deck right though - hopefully I can take that advice onboard and get my third Hatamoto title ;)

Joking aside, I highly recommend folks read Jon Butler's excellent article on how to play Scorpion Dishonour over on the Imperial Advisor blog. His advice and deck list took me to a 7-0  record at GenCon and a top four Worlds finish, and it absolutely shows that there are (and this is very much a Scorpion strength and a major reason behind the success enjoyed in big events) multiple 'right' ways to build and play the clan.

Edited by Hinomura

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19 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

I respectfully disagree. I do appreciate you pointing out how to build my deck right though - hopefully I can take that advice onboard and get my third Hatamoto title ;)

Hey if you want to ignore a card that gives you the potential to ignore a lose condition (and if used correctly lend you a massive card advantage in the process) that only your clan has the option to field and is only a 1 of slot you go ahead.

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3 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Hey if you want to ignore a card that gives you the potential to ignore a lose condition (and if used correctly lend you a massive card advantage in the process) that only your clan has the option to field and is only a 1 of slot you go ahead.

I think his point is that a Defensive "Bid-1-All-Day-Everyday" deck is not going to ever find use for Duty unless dishonor becomes so hardcore that you can get dishonored without ever giving your opponent any honor from an honor bid.

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Yep. I can absolutely get behind the statement 'most Scorpion decks will try and run this card'. I don't agree with the statement 'all Scorpion decks will run this card, and those that don't are doing it wrong.' There is a successful style of play that bids low and absolutely can't afford to have a situational card be the one card it drew that turn.

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9 minutes ago, Saibot said:

I think his point is that a Defensive "Bid-1-All-Day-Everyday" deck is not going to ever find use for Duty unless dishonor becomes so hardcore that you can get dishonored without ever giving your opponent any honor from an honor bid.

Oh its there, between Assassination, Undefended conflicts and the slow air/fire bleed you can be in that situation easily.  Add the amount of self dishonor that Scorpion has for so many of their tricks to work and dishonor protection should always be something you are considering in the back of your mind.  Yes you can run the bid 1 archetype, and it may have been successful when the game first came out (although Gencon was a highly skewed environment and World's was not much better being Core only).  

Sadly the facts are that the decks that are doing well in tournament play at the moment are dishonor switch where you are able to leverage card advantage from high bidding and in faction dishonor to force their opponent's honor down and keep it low to limit their options.  This card lends protection against that archetype, which is highly prevalent in the field, and so should always be meriting consideration in a scorpion deck.  I never said that it was an auto-include in every deck but the power that it lends you in the mirror match means, which I did say, if you aren't at least trying to find a place for a 1 off that could save you a game you aren't really doing deck building right.  You may find you don't need it in most games, but ignoring the power it will lend you in the Crab and mirror match is very shortsighted.

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