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thorrk

Duty should be restricted before it is released

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1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

Not only this but his answer/reply is scary. I don’t think that he is properly gauging how certain cards such as this one might seriously hamper the environment for the worse. (competitive, casual and everything in between)

For me it’s really perplexing that L5R was being touted as having enough gravitas to be able to challenge well established card games such as MtG, yet the lead developer thinks it’s fine if some cards are broken because, well, ‘frustrating cards are what makes the game great...’ ?

He’s just not getting it. Even after the RL, there seems to be a disconnect among developers (and their card designs), the gaming public (and what we strive to be able to play with in the cards and games we choose) and the competitive scene (with top players actually stating what and where the pitfalls of specific cards/combos are). 

Part of me seriously wishes for Scorpion players to take Worlds, choose Seeker, get Backhand and equally broken cards for Scorpion, and just run the competitive field into the ground.... then, maybe, there might be more true focus placed on objectivity. (ain’t holding my breath on objectivity) 

 

This is because FFG isn't WotC and doesn't want to be WotC. FFG's competitive space is more meant to be fun than anything else. They don't design games around Spikes.

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1 minute ago, Danwarr said:

This is because FFG isn't WotC and doesn't want to be WotC. FFG's competitive space is more meant to be fun than anything else. They don't design games around Spikes.

This is the same lazy design that i often hear for games like Warhammer 40k where the designers are purposely leaving imbalanced combo's out there and frankly I give it the same value I here that I give it there.  Don't justify lazy design work with the "Beer and Pretzels" not meant to be super competitive excuse. 

In any faction based game there needs to be design spaces that set each faction apart and they should not be perfect at everything, but in a well constructed rules set two equally skilled players should be able to sit down with any factions and have a roughly equal chance at winning against any other (discounting the hard counter/god draw argument) on any given day.

The issue is that we are not there as results are showing that Scorpion (and to a lesser extent Crab) is running away with the field.  What is fueling this is that these are the two best factions set up in the current environment for dishonor switch and the deck that should be there natural predator (honor runners) are not in any way viable at the moment.

Sadly the current rules set is geared towards you will lose honor with the undefended conflicts costing you honor, bidding for cards or duels potentially costing you honor and than the propensity of key power cards like Banzai and Assassination to include an honor kicker in their cost further dragging you down. 

Duty being A) limited to only one faction who is already strongly geared to manipulate the honor totals down to the lower spectrum, and than B) letting them play in that territory with far more freedom than other clans how have to measure each gain against each loss.

Add that the only real way to account for it is action cancellation which is only really reliably available in two clans (one of whom is the clan that this card benefits making it a cancel war) leaves it in a very dangerous and potentially very negative play space that serves to see the rich clan getting richer while the other clans suffer.

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I didn't say it was good design, just that that's been FFG's approach for years. Plenty of the other LCGs have crazy "1x limit" cards. They like the variance these cards introduce.

If FFG really wanted to have a competitive card game, they wouldn't have Roles restrictions, splash would be unlimited, and you could actually play the game in a best of 3 in a reasonable amount of time.

This is how FFG does things, for better or worse. There is always this tension with FFG gamers where people want X game to be hyper competitive, but FFG never designs to accommodate or really have a good handle on OP. They have the resources available if they wanted to, but it is abundantly clear from following the company for the last 6 years that they really have no intentions of doing that. They just want to make fun games and have people enjoy themselves.

Edited by Danwarr

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24 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

I didn't say it was good design, just that that's been FFG's approach for years. Plenty of the other LCGs have crazy "1x limit" cards. They like the variance these cards introduce.

If FFG really wanted to have a competitive card game, they wouldn't have Roles restrictions, splash would be unlimited, and you could actually play the game in a best of 3 in a reasonable amount of time.

This is how FFG does things, for better or worse. There is always this tension with FFG gamers where people want X game to be hyper competitive, but FFG never designs to accommodate or really have a good handle on OP. They have the resources available if they wanted to, but it is abundantly clear from following the company for the last 6 years that they really have no intentions of doing that. They just want to make fun games and have people enjoy themselves.

The issue is that they may say that, but when you are hosting events gated by $100+ conventions and have an organized play event structure geared around competitive play than you need to step up and make sure you are fulfilling that desire otherwise you run the risk of your game drying up and dieing.

They are able to get around it with many of their licensed properties like Star Wars and Game of Thrones if is offset by the popularity of the setting and the fact that there is a certain percentage of the player pool that will buy it regardless of balance based on they need everything for the franchise that they love and the casual gamer who will give it a lark because hey they love <insert fanchise here> and how bad could it really be.  L5R does not have nearly that large a fan base and I can only say that locally I've watching the game wither and die as players get tired of dealing with the same overpowered strategies and little sign that anything is being done to address them.

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Just to specify when we were talking about "frustrating" cards we were not talking about cards that were Op but rather cards that are annoying (for example feast and famine: not necessarily that op once you learn how to play around it but feels incredibly frustrating especially for new players)

Of course they are looking after cards that are imbalanced that's why they made the restricted list.

Edited by thorrk

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4 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

It's not actually enjoyable to know I need to play Scorpion to have any chance of winning so I don't think that strategy is working very well.

The Scorpion pack doesn't come out until October, so who knows what is coming in Elements cycle that might end up being powerful for one clan or another.

Kotei attendance has been pretty good for the most part and there has been a pretty decent clan spread, so at least some people are enjoying the game.

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1 minute ago, Schmoozies said:

L5R does not have nearly that large a fan base and I can only say that locally I've watching the game wither and die as players get tired of dealing with the same overpowered strategies and little sign that anything is being done to address them.

L5Rs bigger problems are the game is pretty obtuse as well as long. This makes it even more frustrating when certain strategies don't get addressed for awhile. However, this is pretty much par for the course for FFG games. Netrunner has basically died and been resurrected twice. GoT was actually completely rebooted and seems to be doing well now a few years out after flopping very hard in the first 18 months or so.

My only advice is to keep playing the game if you enjoy it and stop if you aren't because FFG really isn't going to change any time soon. These lulls and stumbles with their games are pretty common.

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2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Also most of the players I've seen saying Duty is fine or is unplayable are Scorpion (and in many cases said the same things about Fate Worse than Death and its 4 cost meaning it would be almost unplayable) so make of that what you will.

Just to be very clear on something here...we're not magical samurai. There are no ulterior motives from me, at least - I place the good of the game before the good of the clan every time, and always have. I also have a tendency to concede in major events when people ask me nicely, so it doesn't actually do me a whole lot of good to overpower 'my' faction.

If I *was* sneaky and devious, I'd be playing along with the hyperbolic claims, because I honestly believe my chances of winning a game go up if my opponent has this card in their deck.

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6 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

If I *was* sneaky and devious, I'd be playing along with the hyperbolic claims, because I honestly believe my chances of winning a game go up if my opponent has this card in their deck.

Agreed, this card is barely playable. 

If someone wants to put this on the RL that's essentially the same as banning it... which won't actually make any difference other than guarantee that people won't play it from the start (as opposed to playing it and then removing it from their decks in when they see how this is a blank card in most games).  

Thaddok

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20 hours ago, Hinomura said:

Just to be very clear on something here...we're not magical samurai. There are no ulterior motives from me, at least - I place the good of the game before the good of the clan every time, and always have. I also have a tendency to concede in major events when people ask me nicely, so it doesn't actually do me a whole lot of good to overpower 'my' faction.

If I *was* sneaky and devious, I'd be playing along with the hyperbolic claims, because I honestly believe my chances of winning a game go up if my opponent has this card in their deck.

To be honest I can't read Scorpion players posts about their clan card reveals with a straight face.

I do not think you guys are role-playing, you are just very heavily biased towards your own faction(much more than other faction players from what I saw) and you always try to deflect(and yes, I am generalising, it might not be you personally but just something I have experienced). I still have fond memory of Scorpion players trying to convince me that Kachiko will be worse than Ujiyaki(Ujiyaki who?) and unplayable because she is a conflict deck character. They were also saying that FWTD will only see fringe play in some decks as 1 of max. I was against both points and guess who was right. 

I don't agree with op, it is stupid to say that Duty should be instantly restricted(just looking at the meta right now proves him wrong, there isn't much use for this card).  

But it is equally stupid or even more so, to say that card is unplayable and you would be happy for the opponent to put it in their deck, as some have suggested. The card didn't come out yet. No one knows how it performs. There are entire expansions and likely new deck types coming. There were people saying FTWD and Kachiko suck. It's better not to make similar mistakes again. 

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3 hours ago, BordOne said:

To be honest I can't read Scorpion players posts about their clan card reveals with a straight face.

I do not think you guys are role-playing, you are just very heavily biased towards your own faction(much more than other faction players from what I saw) and you always try to deflect(and yes, I am generalising, it might not be you personally but just something I have experienced). I still have fond memory of Scorpion players trying to convince me that Kachiko will be worse than Ujiyaki(Ujiyaki who?) and unplayable because she is a conflict deck character. They were also saying that FWTD will only see fringe play in some decks as 1 of max. I was against both points and guess who was right. 

I don't agree with op, it is stupid to say that Duty should be instantly restricted(just looking at the meta right now proves him wrong, there isn't much use for this card).  

But it is equally stupid or even more so, to say that card is unplayable and you would be happy for the opponent to put it in their deck, as some have suggested. The card didn't come out yet. No one knows how it performs. There are entire expansions and likely new deck types coming. There were people saying FTWD and Kachiko suck. It's better not to make similar mistakes again. 

I agree 100%, I have always looked at the new cards as this is cool, lets see how they play out rather than call doom or garbage off the bat. When I first saw Kachiko and AFWTD I did think they would be strong cards though which was generally against the grain of what most people expressed on these forums. I think more people need to be of the mindset of "lets see how this plays out before making judgment calls" rather than the current mindset of the player base right now. 

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at the meta right now proves him wrong, there isn't much use for this card).  

 Thanks for the good laugh. And thank for sharing your brave and such risky opinion, you must be a very brave person in real life ^^. 

Whether this card is too strong or just next level frustrating I hope it will be restricted, I think I used enough arguments and proven enough as a player to not be called stupid. You have the complete right to disagree with me but you should treat people with respect just like every single person did on this topic so far.

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With the 'clarification' from Tyler that Duty would stop both the game loss and the honour gain in a 5/1 bid when the Scorpion player is on four or less honour, I'm definitely seeing more weight to Pierre's argument. I still think that the card isn't so powerful that it should be restricted before it's even released, and I still say the environment will be very different with 170+ new cards, but I can absolutely see more where his concern lies now, and agree it is something that needs to carefully monitored.

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On 6/4/2018 at 6:19 PM, thorrk said:

Brad-He answered me that "frustrating" cards are part of what makes game great

I get what Brad is trying to say here, but man do I disagree. 

The fact of the matter is that game design is really hard and that even with extensive testing they aren’t going to catch everything. Not to mention that design for this set was likely finished long before the current meta formed. But if Brad answered “Game design is hard; we’re doing our best guys but sometimes we don’t catch everything,” he’d still get chewed out on these forums, so I appreciate the tough position he is in.

Edited by Suzume Tomonori

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Thorrk, are you the Pierre who beat me in the last round of proving grounds with some wonderful moves (talisman from hand to shift province to dtw after I had bowed kisasa with Ku)

 

If not then np. I had to applaud whoever that was.. 

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Thorrk, are you the Pierre who beat me in the last round of proving grounds with some wonderful moves (talisman from hand to shift province to dtw after I had bowed kisasa with Ku)

I could not play the proving round because I was in top16 of the main event so it was not me. ^^

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On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:27 PM, Hinomura said:

With the 'clarification' from Tyler that Duty would stop both the game loss and the honour gain in a 5/1 bid when the Scorpion player is on four or less honour, I'm definitely seeing more weight to Pierre's argument. I still think that the card isn't so powerful that it should be restricted before it's even released, and I still say the environment will be very different with 170+ new cards, but I can absolutely see more where his concern lies now, and agree it is something that needs to carefully monitored.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoooooaaaaa!!!!!

You can't just go switching from team Edward to Team Jacob like that. 

I get it, Edward was so pale and shiny, like a cold glass of milk.  But then Jacob took his shirt off and it was like "daaaaannnnnngg hold me back."

It's ok, we've all been there. 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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On 6/5/2018 at 12:02 PM, BordOne said:

To be honest I can't read Scorpion players posts about their clan card reveals with a straight face.

I do not think you guys are role-playing, you are just very heavily biased towards your own faction(much more than other faction players from what I saw) and you always try to deflect(and yes, I am generalising, it might not be you personally but just something I have experienced). I still have fond memory of Scorpion players trying to convince me that Kachiko will be worse than Ujiyaki(Ujiyaki who?) and unplayable because she is a conflict deck character. They were also saying that FWTD will only see fringe play in some decks as 1 of max. I was against both points and guess who was right. 

I don't agree with op, it is stupid to say that Duty should be instantly restricted(just looking at the meta right now proves him wrong, there isn't much use for this card).  

But it is equally stupid or even more so, to say that card is unplayable and you would be happy for the opponent to put it in their deck, as some have suggested. The card didn't come out yet. No one knows how it performs. There are entire expansions and likely new deck types coming. There were people saying FTWD and Kachiko suck. It's better not to make similar mistakes again. 

This probably has more to do with the fact that most people are absolutely horrendous at evaluating cards than any kind of malice, or deception.

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As it is right now, Duty -- a max-one-copy Conflict card, that you have about a 50/50 chance of seeing over the course of a match and is in no way, shape, or form any more game-breaking than anything else out there at the moment -- will be in 99% Scorpion decks. If it is placed on the Restricted list, it will in 0% of Scorpion decks. This is a tremendous overreaction which, frankly, is worse for the game as a whole than the card itself is.

I hate Scorpion. HAAAAAAAAAATE. Playing against the clan makes me want to flip tables and punch faces. But I want this card to see play, because it's a good card. Note: I said "good." Not "insane and it needs to be nerfed now now now."

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On 5/31/2018 at 8:10 AM, Ishi Tonu said:

I'm sure the design intent was to help the new Scorpion stronghold, that is going to plunge itself towards an honor loss. 

The scary reality is how it works with the original Scorpion stronghold.

 

I think we are losing focus as to the intent of the Restricted List in this conversation and why FFG put that into effect. As Ishi Toni stated early on in the thread, this card will be ridiculously good with the current Scorpion SH that we have experience with (as to the capabilities and workings of the current Scorpion deck). Thus, the game designers should have another look at this card and re-evaluate its effectiveness within the current meta - even more so as this card (Duty) was designed and  playtested months ago, without the certain knowledge of the current (contemporary) meta. 

In my regards, I see this to be a simple matter of adding “fixes” or tweaks for certain cards that are necessitated by the changes that evolve through the grand meta shifts that typically appear during the life of a game. Hence, here we are. 

I’m likely restating what others have more poignantly stated earlier on in this thread, but someone please tell me otherwise.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

I think we are losing focus as to the intent of the Restricted List in this conversation and why FFG put that into effect. As Ishi Toni stated early on in the thread, this card will be ridiculously good with the current Scorpion SH that we have experience with (as to the capabilities and workings of the current Scorpion deck). Thus, the game designers should have another look at this card and re-evaluate its effectiveness within the current meta - even more so as this card (Duty) was designed and  playtested months ago, without the certain knowledge of the current (contemporary) meta. 

In my regards, I see this to be a simple matter of adding “fixes” or tweaks for certain cards that are necessitated by the changes that evolve through the grand meta shifts that typically appear during the life of a game. Hence, here we are. 

I’m likely restating what others have more poignantly stated earlier on in this thread, but someone please tell me otherwise.

 

 

 

 

Otherwise! :P

 

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1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

You know, we must have been separated at birth or something.... otherwise.... 

:D 

Weeelllllll.....

As the song goes "Papa was a rollin' stone" so it's very possible I have some half siblings running around somewhere.

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