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thorrk

Duty should be restricted before it is released

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17 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Yeah I remember the show.  

Its not about which was first it’s about who can make the ladies weak and coach Taylor gets it done every time

I am sure Kube and Coach Taylor (who will always be Gary from Early Edition in my book) would get along great.

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I think it creates interesting decision points for the opponent when bidding. Having your opponent play around Duty is almost just as good as having it in your hand. 

And that's really thematic with the clan. 

 

Wonder why Path of Man is Influence 4 instead of just not making it available like this one. 

Edited by Soshi Saibankan

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35 minutes ago, Soshi Saibankan said:

I think it creates interesting decision points for the opponent when bidding. Having your opponent play around Duty is almost just as good as having it in your hand. 

And that's really thematic with the clan. 

 

Wonder why Path of Man is Influence 4 instead of just not making it available like this one. 

because the path of man is open to anyone who is prepared to accept the truth it represents.

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36 minutes ago, Soshi Saibankan said:

I think it creates interesting decision points for the opponent when bidding. Having your opponent play around Duty is almost just as good as having it in your hand. 

And that's really thematic with the clan. 

 

Wonder why Path of Man is Influence 4 instead of just not making it available like this one. 

Possibly for fiction reasons - the Path of Man is available to anyone, if they are willing to undertake the hardships.

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Bruh, it's one card in the Conflict deck. One. Odds are it's never going to be seen. And since it's only one it had better be pretty darned solid to justify the slot. 

Man, I can't wait for your other six posts for when the other Clans get their versions of this type of card... 

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8 minutes ago, selderane said:

Bruh, it's one card in the Conflict deck. One. Odds are it's never going to be seen. And since it's only one it had better be pretty darned solid to justify the slot. 

Man, I can't wait for your other six posts for when the other Clans get their versions of this type of card... 

Old Stronghold Scorpion you'll see minimum 3/4 of your deck before you honor out so actually good odds of seeing it before the end of the game.  What will be even worse is a mirror match where if you play it and your opponent can get a Plagiarist to copy it.

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2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Old Stronghold Scorpion you'll see minimum 3/4 of your deck before you honor out so actually good odds of seeing it before the end of the game.  What will be even worse is a mirror match where if you play it and your opponent can get a Plagiarist to copy it.

Plagiarist can't copy it.  It isn't an Action.

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3 hours ago, selderane said:

Bruh, it's one card in the Conflict deck. One. Odds are it's never going to be seen. And since it's only one it had better be pretty darned solid to justify the slot. 

Man, I can't wait for your other six posts for when the other Clans get their versions of this type of card... 

That's not really the point the OP is trying to make here.

By printing a card as a 1 of with a really strong ability, you increase the impact of variance over skill. 

"Yeah I was doing everything right, I managed to get the Scorpion down on cards and was pressuring their honor...........

But, then they Doodied on me."

Nobody likes getting R. Kelly'd.  So, I can see where the OP is coming from on this.  I'd like to see what else will be in the elemental cycle before a pre-emptive decision is considered, but, thinking about a how Scorpion's conflict advantage can just snowball in generally and that this card can eliminate any work by an opponent to try and press them on honor to prevent a couple high bids to chip away at that conflict advantage, worries me a little bit too.

Again, the card seems to be designed to help the new stronghold, because it will take a nose dive on honor and has no way to recoup any honor, but, used in conjunction with the core stronghold you end up with something that can be leveraged to build an ultra trim deck that goes from mostly having the answers, to always having the answers.  Consider for a moment If Scorpion got a keeper role.   They could effectively run a 34 card conflict deck between Backhanded Compliment and Contingency Plan.  Add Manipulator in the mix and there is a potential for a Scorpion deck with a potential to completely bastardize the conflict advantage they already enjoy into something that is truly NPE.

It's not something to worry about now, but, I don't blame the OP for having concerns.

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Hello people I am back from GK Birmingham 

First I have to say that I still believe that Duty will be a tremendously toxic card, both of my wins against scorpion this week end were done by dishonor and I would have probably lost both of those games if duty was in their deck. 

I also had the chance to talk with Brad Andres about many things including this card.

Brad- His first answer was that he had about 200 games with the card and he thinks the card is fine (obviously). He also said that despite this dedicated testing it is very possible that Duty might be too powerful, but this remain to be proven on the field of Battle.

Me-I answered him than I will trust their judgement on the matter in regard of the power level of the card, but I really hope that they will react on a timely manner with the restricted list if my worries were confirmed. Regardless of its power level I also think Duty is really unfun and I believe that such cards should not be printed.

Brad-He answered me that "frustrating" cards are part of what makes game great and that every game has a portion of frustrating card like this, it generates controversy and engagement toward the community which is a good thing for them (marketing wise I suppose even tho he didn't use this word). Also he said that they were trying to push the limit of what was possible to do with L5r in order to keep the game fresh and interesting. He then reassured me saying that they are going to be reactive with the restricted list so if this card ever becomes a problem it will go right there.

Me-I then asked how often are they going to update the Restricted list.

Brad-He said whenever it's necessary, they want to answer problems very re-actively.

I really appreciated that he took the time to kindly answer my questions.

I respect their decision so now I really hope that Duty will be either restricted or not release for Worlds.

DISCLAIMER: I tried to describe the conversation I had with brad as accurately as possible but it remains my interpretation, therefore take it with a grain of salt. 

Edited by thorrk

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So Brad tells you they have extensive data showing the card isn't a problem, and you somehow think that means they'll ban it within a few weeks of it releasing? I'd suggest preparing yourself for disappointment on that front, dude.

I'm still not seeing why you're so convinced this card is so deforming it needs to be banned. Again, it's literally a dead card for the entire game until a very specific situation against a very specific deck. I'm not even convinced most Scorpion players will run it, as it will cost them more games by being drawn instead of a useful card than it will win. And as you have no significant control over WHEN you draw it, you risk either not having it when you need it or it being vulnerable to any card or ring effect that attacks your hand.

You're clearly an exceptionally talented L5R player, but I think your fears are unfounded here.

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 I've found this quote frightening:   

1 hour ago, thorrk said:

Brad-He answered me that "frustrating" cards are part of what makes game great and that every game has a portion of frustrating card like this, it generates controversy and engagement toward the community which is a good thing for them.

 

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So Brad tells you they have extensive data showing the card isn't a problem,

Doing QA in the video game industry is part of what I do for a living so I know there is a tremendous difference between testing in a small group and testing at a large scale, especially when this testing has been done somewhere like 8 month ago when the meta and our knowledge of the game were very different. 

Quote

and you somehow think that means they'll ban it within a few weeks of it releasing? I'd suggest preparing yourself for disappointment on that front, dude.

I hope I am  wrong and I hope they will be reactive about if I am right, because I would not want the most important tournament of the year being ruined by this card. 

Quote

I'm still not seeing why you're so convinced this card is so deforming it needs to be banned. Again, it's literally a dead card for the entire game until a very specific situation against a very specific deck. I'm not even convinced most Scorpion players will run it, as it will cost them more games by being drawn instead of a useful card than it will win. And as you have no significant control over WHEN you draw it, you risk either not having it when you need it or it being vulnerable to any card or ring effect that attacks your hand.

My fear are based on my knowledge of the Scorpion vs Crab MU. This card simply destroys the balance of this MU in favor of Scorpion, if you think having a single card that has this power is ok I disagree ^^.  For other Mu I still believe Duty will be a very powerful tool especially when only cost 1 slot. Statistically on a game of 4 turns, Scorpion players are very likely to draw it and if they don't, you will have to play as if they drew it, which makes this card EXTREMELY reliable, and there is very few counters as explained on my OP. Having a card that single handedly removes a win condition and breaks a fundamental resource of the game is not ok for me. We actually saw that with City of the open hand, which I believe is the true responsible of the domination of scorpion, if city goes in the restricted list I might be ok with having Duty, but I doubt they will do that with a Sh.

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Again, how are they statistically likely to draw it? Are you assuming that your opponent, seeing that you're playing dishonour, will bid five against you every turn? Really?

Seriously. Please explain to me the math behind this. I'm absolutely trying to understand where you're coming from here, but simply cannot see it.

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Ok so there is a lot to explain here ^^.

Bidding one against scorp on turn 1 is suicidal, he is going to make so much value that you won't be able to recover, you give him the opportunity to activate his Sh and resolve an air ring (but often he doesn't even have to). If you want a good example of that, watch the final GK Paris where I get destroyed ^^ (and that was even tho I had storehouse and double envoy  to compensate for the lack of cards). Beside Watch commander will be a lot more effective and powerful on a high bid game  where both players have to play loads of cards to fight over different conflicts. You only start to bid one when watch commander/assassination did the job before and when you think you have enough cards in hand to prevent him from getting air or simply destroying you. This way you limit the use of his sh to 1 or 2 turns max, from this point the game start to be low bid and you are favorite. This point usually happens on turn 3 or 4 and the scorpion player drew around 30 cards so the odd he has Duty are very high.

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2 hours ago, kempy said:

 I've found this quote frightening:   

Quote

Brad-He answered me that "frustrating" cards are part of what makes game great and that every game has a portion of frustrating card like this, it generates controversy and engagement toward the community which is a good thing for them.

 

This honestly doesn't surprise me that much, I think it's pretty much in line with their response regarding the locked in roles and the initial controversy surrounding Scorpion's role selection from Worlds. 

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I don't have the artistic skills to make it, but here's my vision for the alternate art version of duty. 

(renamed)

Hakuna Matata

[insert art of Timon and Pumbaa posed like the man and scorpion in the original art] 

(new flavor text)

"It's our problem-free philosophy."

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Pierre, thank you for being patient and explaining your logic to me, it's definitely appreciated.

I think you're still overestimating the impact and the numbers. In a three turn game, Scorpion see potentially 23 cards, which assumes a full mulligan and bidding five each turn. That leaves aside any additional draws from Imperial Storehouse, Bayushi Liar, Secret Cache, or Ring of Earth. That's a very, very dangerous way for them to play the game against you, and like I've said, should actually increase your chances of winning rather than lowering them. If a deck plays balls to the wall assuming it is going to draw a singleton from their deck, they're stuffed when they either don't draw it, have it plucked from their hand before they can play it, or get it canceled. There's a lot that can go wrong there. And that's before we start discussing that there's 120 cards from the Elemental Cycle and the rest of the Scorpion Clan Pack to impact the environment and change up the card pool too.

While being sympathetic to your concerns, I think your conclusion and request for restriction are based on incomplete information and flawed data. There's not a lot else to say other than wait and see, I guess.

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In a three turn game, Scorpion see potentially 23 cards, which assumes a full mulligan and bidding five each turn. That leaves aside any additional draws from Imperial Storehouse, Bayushi Liar, Secret Cache, or Ring of Earth. 

First you forgot Test of skill, bayushi manipulator and favorite niece, secondly I said 3 to 4 turns so 30 is an average between the 2 and thirdly you can't leave them aside those cards will make you draw/see a lot of cards ^^.

Quote

That's a very, very dangerous way for them to play the game against you, and like I've said, should actually increase your chances of winning rather than lowering them. If a deck plays balls to the wall assuming it is going to draw a singleton from their deck, 

If you think bidding 5 per turns is playing "balls to the wall " it's really not, it is the way top scorp players play all the time and it's the best strategy by far, and thanks to duty they can do it even more than before. It's absolutely not risky because the scorpion player is the one who has the information, he is the one who knows how he should bid.

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As a devout Scorpion player myself, I can say, without fear, that Duty is not going to be a "broken" card the likes of those added to the restricted list. It is a one in 40+ card draw and yes, even if we bid 5 every turn (which you don't against certain clans), the percentage of getting the card that requires a specific thing to happen in order to be effective is huge. Not to mention the exciting new tricks that Scorpion is getting will be more of a hinderance to your winning than Duty will. Trust me! I am a Scorpion after all. 

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I play Phoenix and when I sit down against Scorpion I basically know I am playing for tiebreaker points because the only way for me to beat them is by dishonor after like two hours of slow grind. Duty probably doesn't do much for them in that case. But I definitely see how other match ups could be dominated by it.

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6 hours ago, kempy said:

 I've found this quote frightening:   

 

Not only this but his answer/reply is scary. I don’t think that he is properly gauging how certain cards such as this one might seriously hamper the environment for the worse. (competitive, casual and everything in between)

For me it’s really perplexing that L5R was being touted as having enough gravitas to be able to challenge well established card games such as MtG, yet the lead developer thinks it’s fine if some cards are broken because, well, ‘frustrating cards are what makes the game great...’ ?

He’s just not getting it. Even after the RL, there seems to be a disconnect among developers (and their card designs), the gaming public (and what we strive to be able to play with in the cards and games we choose) and the competitive scene (with top players actually stating what and where the pitfalls of specific cards/combos are). 

Part of me seriously wishes for Scorpion players to take Worlds, choose Seeker, get Backhand and equally broken cards for Scorpion, and just run the competitive field into the ground.... then, maybe, there might be more true focus placed on objectivity. (ain’t holding my breath on objectivity) 

 

Edited by LordBlunt

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He didn't say broken cards are good, he said that frustrating gameplay is ok. These sorts of discussions do help engage the community, and if he's tested it extensively, then they should go ahead with it. If it turns out their design skills were wrong, they can restrict it, but it makes no sense to disregard their own playtesting on the word of players that haven't tried it out.

And even if there are some players saying it's too strong, there are other established players saying it's ok or won't even be played. What do you honestly expect them to do?

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53 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

He didn't say broken cards are good, he said that frustrating gameplay is ok. These sorts of discussions do help engage the community, and if he's tested it extensively, then they should go ahead with it. If it turns out their design skills were wrong, they can restrict it, but it makes no sense to disregard their own playtesting on the word of players that haven't tried it out.

And even if there are some players saying it's too strong, there are other established players saying it's ok or won't even be played. What do you honestly expect them to do?

The issue is we heard many of the same things from the design team during the Core release and that the first cycle would smooth out the wrinkles that Core only was presenting and look where that left us.

Also most of the players I've seen saying Duty is fine or is unplayable are Scorpion (and in many cases said the same things about Fate Worse than Death and its 4 cost meaning it would be almost unplayable) so make of that what you will.

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