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thorrk

Duty should be restricted before it is released

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Hello,

I am opening this subject because I consider this problem to be important enough to deserve its own topic. 

Yesterday was a crazy day for L5r first we had the announcement of the Scorpion clan pack which was the last thing we wanted to hear. Before the stream, we were pleasantly surprised to see that the cards shown so far had a reasonable power level but also were pushing Scorpion in a new direction rather than reinforcing the current scorpion control, which we all learned to hate.

But the hope of a balance and healthy environment has been completely been shattered by the design of Duty.

This card is in my opinion the most impactful and overpowered card in the game and unfortunately limiting it to one exemplar doesn't solve the problem at all.

So far one of the best strategy against the current scorpion has been to try to force the low bid game since it is a deck that plays mainly with its conflict and becomes a lot weaker when forced to play with its Dynasty, this strategy was mainly used by decks like Phoenix and Crab which have powerful dynasty options and can naturally draw a lot of cards. Needless to say Duty completely destroys this approach, if you play Duty in reaction to a bid 1 with a bid 5 while you are low in honor (which will happen sooner or later), in comparison to your opponent you will draw 4 cards and win 1 honor as well as denying 4 honor to your opponent, which is absolutely INSANE no matter how you look at it and all of this for a 0 fate card.

Now let's look how this cards play out in the context of a high bid game. This would be happening mainly against Crane and Dragon when those decks would rather try to out-muscle the scorpion player with a high bid gameplan. What would typically happen is that both players will try to draw as many cards as possible until they reach the point where you have to stay over 5 honor or start bidding low. With several assassinations and multiple dh characters and undefended conflicts, honor usually starts to be a problem at this point especially if scorpion is aggressively losing honor which its deck encourage you to do. If you start bidding low to put scorpion in difficulty then cf scenario number 1, if you carry on bidding 5 then you will reach the point where you loose the game if you get milled but scorpion won't, actually he can just play Duty in reaction of the mill and he is back with a full deck and won 1 honor in the process.

Needless to say, Duty is putting Scorpion in a win/win scenario no matter what you choose to do on top of its "normal" use which will prevent you from losing by dishonor which is just very powerful on its own especially when you combine it with City of the Open Hand. And the scary part is that you don't even need to draw it for it to impact the game.

I am also afraid that the very nature of this card makes it a very hard to counter, the only real counterplay we have are:

-Akodo Kage: but only available for the Lion clan and can be cloud the minded which scorpion already play in 3 exemplars.

-Counter-event: which are not available for all decks and can be countered by forge edict/censure.

-Policy debate: sees very limited play because of the restricted list and can be countered by forge edict/censure.

I don't see the elemental cycle improving this (unless they just give counter events to every clans but that would be silly).

This card is a danger for the meta and therefore should be included in the restricted list before its release. I am not going to bash the designers since designing card for such a new game 10 month in advance is not easy but please restrict this card, it's not too late!

Pierre Le Masson aka Thorrk/Hida Rehia double Hatamoto of the Crab Clan.

Edited by thorrk

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My gut reaction is to agree with the OP about having this card considered for addition to the restricted list.

While it's not splashable, it's certainly a card that breaks the fundamental rules of the game and allows for some ridiculous scenarios to occur.

I'm sure the design intent was to help the new Scorpion stronghold, that is going to plunge itself towards an honor loss. 

The scary reality is how it works with the original Scorpion stronghold.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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The idea of a powerful 1-of philosophy card for each clan bearing the name of their dedicated tenet sounds cool on paper, but the reality of that sort of design is a question of who draws theirs and who doesn't. Singleton cards are terrible design because they reduce strategy and increase luck in a way that players can't really control or interact with.

(Edit: was I mistaken? I thought each clan was associated with one of the virtues of Bushido, but I'm having a hard time finding a source for that.)

This specific card I could see being very hazardous in a field of counterspells like Censure, so hopefully we get another decent control card to help tame it. But regardless, I think this Duty will be a good reason for scorpions to go after Keeper roles now for Backhanded Compliment. Usually that card has a bit of trouble clogging your hand up before it can close the game out, but if you're able to draw 5 cards in the finishing stages of the game, that's the card you want to draw up.

Edited by AradonTemplar

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10 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

(Edit: was I mistaken? I thought each clan was associated with one of the virtues of Bushido, but I'm having a hard time finding a source for that.)

You’re not. Only problem with this card is that “Duty” is the virtue associated to Crab. The one for Scorpion is “Loyalty”

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Thanks. I guess it gets muddied when there are seven virtues but you add Mantis (and Spider) clan after the fact. Duty and Loyalty are the same virtue, so in order to give Mantis one, they split it into two, it looks like. To be fair, Duty is a very Crab thing. But it's also a very Scorpion thing :P

I might try to come up with designs for the rest of this 'cycle' in the custom card thread. Like I said, it's an appetizing design idea, just too bad in execution it doesn't work very well. These sorts of themes are better suited for a stronghold effect, where it's more defining and less random.

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30 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Thanks. I guess it gets muddied when there are seven virtues but you add Mantis (and Spider) clan after the fact. Duty and Loyalty are the same virtue, so in order to give Mantis one, they split it into two, it looks like. To be fair, Duty is a very Crab thing. But it's also a very Scorpion thing :P

Ah, yeah, you’re right. For Scorpion the most important is Loyalty, primarily to the clan. That’s why Traitor’s Groove exist, because there’s no worse sin within the Scorpion than betrayal. 

And for the Crab is Duty, because they forsake even Honor if they must (using traps, practicing autopsies..) to accomplish their Duty of defending Rokugan from the Shadowlands.

I recall that for Lion the most important is Honor, for Unicorn is Compassion, for the Crane is Courtesy...

Spider follows the virtues of Shourido, so it doesn’t count. 

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Perhaps we should save calls for restriction until at least the next cycle is done.

If we’re honestly at the point where cards really do need restricting before they’re even out, then design is really screwed and I’m going to go play VTES when it’s properly into reprinting.

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@AradonTemplar

Ok, so I knew I saw something regarding this, and then I remembered it was in the RPG Beta Rulebook FFG released some months ago.

First, they changed (or retranslated) some of the virtues:

-Gi (Righteousness)

-Yu (Courage)

-Jin (Compassion)

-Rei (Courtesy)

-Meiyo (Honor)

-Makoto (Sincerity/Integrity)

-Chūgi (Duty and Loyalty)

 

According to that same book:

Courage is big for Crab, and they don’t care much about Courtesy

Crane values Courtesy, but are not keen to Courage

Sincerity is important for Dragon, and have a somewhat loose definition of Duty and Loyalty

Honor is at the center for Lion, but there’s little room for Compassion. 

Righteousness drives the Phoenix, but Sincerity is selective, as some truths are dangerous to reveal. 

Scorpion has Duty as its core tenet, and obviously they laugh at Honesty, Justice and Honor.

Unicorn, following Lady Shinjo’s steps, values Compassion over the other tenets, but obviously their wandering outside of the Empire was rough for their Courtesy. 

Edit: Sorry for derailing the thread. Didn’t notice it was gonna be such a long post. 

Edited by Tabris2k

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3 hours ago, AradonTemplar said:

The idea of a powerful 1-of philosophy card for each clan bearing the name of their dedicated tenet sounds cool on paper, but the reality of that sort of design is a question of who draws theirs and who doesn't. Singleton cards are terrible design because they reduce strategy and increase luck in a way that players can't really control or interact with.

(Edit: was I mistaken? I thought each clan was associated with one of the virtues of Bushido, but I'm having a hard time finding a source for that.)

This specific card I could see being very hazardous in a field of counterspells like Censure, so hopefully we get another decent control card to help tame it. But regardless, I think this Duty will be a good reason for scorpions to go after Keeper roles now for Backhanded Compliment. Usually that card has a bit of trouble clogging your hand up before it can close the game out, but if you're able to draw 5 cards in the finishing stages of the game, that's the card you want to draw up.

It's not one per deck out of power level per se, but because it's supposed to be only used once per game.

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It's a dead card for the ENTIRE game until you hit a very specific scenario. I think you'd be better off encouraging Scorpion players to put it in their decks, because honestly, it makes them worse. If you bid high and miss it, you put yourself in all sorts of trouble. If you bid low, you put yourself in a situation where it could be the only card you draw for a turn.

It's not good.

 

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2 hours ago, Ersatz Nihilist said:

Perhaps we should save calls for restriction until at least the next cycle is done.

If we’re honestly at the point where cards really do need restricting before they’re even out, then design is really screwed and I’m going to go play VTES when it’s properly into reprinting.

Is VTES being reprinted cool loved the game

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1 hour ago, Barbacuo said:

I know, but that's quite a big restriction already.

It is, but it isn't.  The card matters at the end of the game.  By that point, you've probably seen at least 20 cards, if not 30 or more.  That means you have a 50-75% chance of seeing it.  So while it is 1/deck, it has a good chance of being in your hand when its relevant.  

As pointed out, Is it useful for you to possibly have a dead card in your hand for 3 turns?

Sky is not falling, though I do think the "gain an honor" is a bit of a middle finger to everyone.  The "Don't lose" portion of the card is quite a strong effect.

 

 

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