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What's the point of the Resistance?

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Just want to throw out two points, one that the New Republic would change the planet it was operating from every so often, so think of some weird governmental Olympics. Something that would make me think that not all of the Republics facilities would be placed on the one planet they are governing on for the few years they are there. And two, that Mon Mothma effectively started in a role where she was in complete control of the New Republic at the start to establish everything but was quick to give up power, I think shortly after the GCW ended after Jakku but I could be slightly wrong on that. 

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5 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Just want to throw out two points, one that the New Republic would change the planet it was operating from every so often, so think of some weird governmental Olympics. Something that would make me think that not all of the Republics facilities would be placed on the one planet they are governing on for the few years they are there. And two, that Mon Mothma effectively started in a role where she was in complete control of the New Republic at the start to establish everything but was quick to give up power, I think shortly after the GCW ended after Jakku but I could be slightly wrong on that. 

I believe the planetary political capital is rotated every two years. Not sure where I heard it though. It's mostly nominal in the first place though - the whole system's decentralised.

Mon Mothma, before leaving her role, had ample time to set up all the right infrastructure and people to ensure a functional governing body, rather than a decrepit, blind and deaf New Republic disney liked better.

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2 minutes ago, Astech said:

I believe the planetary political capital is rotated every two years. Not sure where I heard it though. It's mostly nominal in the first place though - the whole system's decentralised.

Mon Mothma, before leaving her role, had ample time to set up all the right infrastructure and people to ensure a functional governing body, rather than a decrepit, blind and deaf New Republic disney liked better.

It really makes no sense to move the capital like that, then again this is the same galaxy where people can be elected queen so I guess that is something that can be accepted without too much suspension of disbelief. And as for the New Republic and Mon Mothma, it really is all just to facilitate the fact they needed to set the film 30 - 40 years after ROTJ, due to the actors' ages, and needed to get them to where we have a 'Rebels vs Empire' scenario, regardless of what that does to the setting. I'd also be willing to bet that JJ and the others making TFA didn't fill in that timespan meaningfully and are expecting other writers and the fans to fill in the gaps they left. It could be argued that Lucas did something similar, to a minor extent with having the OT films seperated by a few years but those are small spans of time rather than events that seem to have radically have changed much of the OT cast.  

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Just now, Astech said:

Excellent argument. I loved how you used evidence and examples to support your claim there. Mom Mothma was the commander in chief of a military organisation with a military focus for over a decade. She was once a senator, but that didn't stop her from engaging in violent and dangerous action where necessary - several Clone Wars arcs have established that. And of course, her sheer experience as a senator would have given her the knowledge not to create a paralytic government in the first place. It's nonsensical.

Now calm down son. When someone posts pithy arguments like "Nuh uh, Mon Mothma wouldn't have done that" I'm under no obligation to lift my game and reply with evidence and examples.

The reason Mon Motham was fighting was to free the galaxy from a militarised government and restore a pre-clone wars era republic, a non-military government. She was basically fighting to remove the Empire from power and replace it with the equivalent of the modern UN.

Just now, Astech said:

So the first order destroyed 5% of the galaxy and crippled centralised financial, industrial, economic and political centers? No, they did not. They destroyed 5 planets of an explicitly decentralised government. That's the real-world equivalent of  the convetional bombing of a small town - sad, worth going to war over, but not really damaging in the slightest.

It's always tricky drawing analogies to the real world. They're never perfect and they tend to get bogged down in debates about which analogy is better or how it's applicable or not. 

My point was that the entire structure of government for the New Republic was removed in a single fell swoop, and no single entity existed in the galaxy to fill that power vacuum, EXCEPT the First Order.

Just now, Astech said:

Just... no. For one, Native Americans were there, with their own system of government and military. They were formed out of a nascent rebellion against the British Empire, which led to war while they were still establishing their own government. Up and until a colony declared its dependence, it was operating under the Empire (British, of course). That's the exact same scenario as the Rebellion. As further parallel, there was an awful lot of infighting between different factions of the US, up until the present day, exactly like the rebellion.

My point here is that the USA were comprised of new states. Very new states, from a culturally homogeneous origin. They didn't carry the baggage of centuries or even millennia of conflict with them, so they were able to come together much more easily than the New Republic could. Every debate in the new republic was carrying hundreds if not thousands of years of baggage with it, so you can easily see how discussions could bog down.

Just now, Astech said:

The republic did have a military - part of their responsibility was to defend charter systems from attack. Their military was just composed of localised defence forces rather than the coagulation of a whole political body's military might against another political body. By the time of the Empire's defeat, sure, some planets were war weary. Many others wanted it to continue, if only so they could ensure their continued safety.

A great effort is gone to in the prequels to show that the Republic is incapable of fighting a war against the CIS, due to their lack of military assets. Until they accidentally buy an army of clones, anyway.

Just now, Astech said:

As a side not, an oligarchy is rule by the wealthiest citizens of a society, like America ?. You'd be thinking of either a dictatorship or a theocracy, depending on how you viewed Palpatine and the Force.

I've always heard the term used to refer to rule by the powerful elite, not necessarily just the wealthy. Dictatorship might be a better descriptor for the Empire, at least before Endor, but I don't think Mon Mothma and her fellow rebels would have been happy to replace the dictatorship with an oligarchy.

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Just now, Astech said:

Mon Mothma, before leaving her role, had ample time to set up all the right infrastructure and people to ensure a functional governing body, rather than a decrepit, blind and deaf New Republic disney liked better.

A democratic republic, especially one comprised of different factions (let alone different *species*) could never be anything other than paralysed by debate. She did the best she could, I'm sure, but there's no way to reconcile that. The only way to have decisive action is to have one person in charge, or have a ruling class with universally aligned goals and beliefs. 

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3 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

A great effort is gone to in the prequels to show that the Republic is incapable of fighting a war against the CIS, due to their lack of military assets. Until they accidentally buy an army of clones, anyway.

Eh, the Republic as an entity might not have been all that great at fighting a war with the CIS, considering one used local sector fleets which were effectively milita versus a giant mass produced force, that said I think some planets could try to defend themselves. Not for very long or overly well, but based off the Tarkin book it seemed that if possible the CIS would often try to have Dooku would go in and try to turn the group to their side rather than fight if they had a sizeable force like Eridu. Based off what little we know of the New Republic's organization I suspect that the systems likely had a similar group, where they weren't one giant army working as a group, but there were surely forces out there that could try to deter pirate fleets and possible some FO forces to an extent. I still think it is frustrating that even 2 movies in, and a good few novels into the ST the FO and New Republic composition, forces, and overall territory is rather nebulous at best. I understand they didn't do that for the OT, but that was a different time, and well the ST is a continuation of something so I'd hope for more context for the galaxy at large. 

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7 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

It really makes no sense to move the capital like that, then again this is the same galaxy where people can be elected queen so I guess that is something that can be accepted without too much suspension of disbelief. And as for the New Republic and Mon Mothma, it really is all just to facilitate the fact they needed to set the film 30 - 40 years after ROTJ, due to the actors' ages, and needed to get them to where we have a 'Rebels vs Empire' scenario, regardless of what that does to the setting. I'd also be willing to bet that JJ and the others making TFA didn't fill in that timespan meaningfully and are expecting other writers and the fans to fill in the gaps they left. It could be argued that Lucas did something similar, to a minor extent with having the OT films seperated by a few years but those are small spans of time rather than events that seem to have radically have changed much of the OT cast.  

It makes sense when you realise that the New Republic is essentially every nation of our world having a centralised government. Nobody would be happy having the capital always in the US, China, India etc. So they move it around, which has both political and military advantages, at the cost of a little bit less effectiveness.

That 'need' for a Rebels Vs Empire movie is really quite inconsequential. Nobody complained about the premise of the clone wars - loyalist forces fighting a secession movement. There are plenty of other political climates that could lead to the scenarios we encountered. Heck, having Zsinj appear with a random super weapon like SKB would have been a good deal more believable.

4 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

The reason Mon Motham was fighting was to free the galaxy from a militarised government and restore a pre-clone wars era republic, a non-military government. She was basically fighting to remove the Empire from power and replace it with the equivalent of the modern UN.

The modern UN... is a military force. Aside from the major payers in the UN performing the same role in numerous countries by themselves, the UN also has a standing army to call upon from its member states to enforce its rules and sanctions.

We can't really claim to know what Mon Mothma's ultimate goals are in the new canon - in the old she was perfectly content with a militarised new Republic, or at least accepted it as necessary. The very fact that she's the leader of a military organisation shows that she accepts the use of force where necessary.

7 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

It's always tricky drawing analogies to the real world. They're never perfect and they tend to get bogged down in debates about which analogy is better or how it's applicable or not. 

Mainly because they're almost always a stretch to draw conclusions from real world events into some kind of application in fictional scenarios.

9 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

My point was that the entire structure of government for the New Republic was removed in a single fell swoop, and no single entity existed in the galaxy to fill that power vacuum, EXCEPT the First Order.

Except it wasn't removed. Not even close. The New Republic in nu canon is explicitly decentralised. Maybe they killed off the elected leader and the first few in the line of succession, but if the New Republic didn't have protocols to keep everyone in that line away from each other except under the most secure circumstances imaginable it's an inexcusable plot-hole. Maybe they destroyed a few branches of judicial and bureaucratic services. So what?

The very concept that the First Order was strong enough to build SKB, have an enormous standing military, be actively aggresive to swathes of the galaxy and have already been acknowledged to exist, yet not be addressed by the new republic is ridiculous. Again, the FO and NR are completely self-contradictory.

13 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

My point here is that the USA were comprised of new states. Very new states, from a culturally homogeneous origin. They didn't carry the baggage of centuries or even millennia of conflict with them, so they were able to come together much more easily than the New Republic could. Every debate in the new republic was carrying hundreds if not thousands of years of baggage with it, so you can easily see how discussions could bog down.

I could definitely see a bog form over the issue of, say, increasing the taxation of the Duros people by 0.13% for the next financial quarter, unless they return control of the waystation X73B to Rhodian officials within 2 rotations. I could not see a bog down of anything more than a few days over the matter of a large, well-armed military force openly attacking worlds.

16 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

A great effort is gone to in the prequels to show that the Republic is incapable of fighting a war against the CIS, due to their lack of military assets. Until they accidentally buy an army of clones, anyway.

Absolutely, but the CIS wasn't militarised either, not by a long shot. It was a conglomeration of corporations that produced the army of the CIS, which was until a certain point totally unaware of their existence. The republic would have won the 'unarmed' battle through the superior strength of its infrastructure.

18 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I've always heard the term used to refer to rule by the powerful elite, not necessarily just the wealthy. Dictatorship might be a better descriptor for the Empire, at least before Endor, but I don't think Mon Mothma and her fellow rebels would have been happy to replace the dictatorship with an oligarchy.

Typically the two groups go hand-in-hand, but in a technical sense an Oligarchy is rule by the rich.

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2 minutes ago, Astech said:

It makes sense when you realise that the New Republic is essentially every nation of our world having a centralised government. Nobody would be happy having the capital always in the US, China, India etc. So they move it around, which has both political and military advantages, at the cost of a little bit less effectiveness.

That 'need' for a Rebels Vs Empire movie is really quite inconsequential. Nobody complained about the premise of the clone wars - loyalist forces fighting a secession movement. There are plenty of other political climates that could lead to the scenarios we encountered. Heck, having Zsinj appear with a random super weapon like SKB would have been a good deal more believable.

Which is why I personally think a Cold War situation would have been ideal, or even having the FO treated as a Cobra Command sort of force trying to take over but is overall small but thwarted by Leia's group more often then not. That or even go the way that TNG moved on from the TOS era with the change in political climate. Then again I also think having it where the New Republic and Empire having to work together for the sake of the galaxy would be a more uplifting message basically saying that being bogged down by grudges and petty squabbles does little but actively trying to reach a middle ground and moving forward. Though note, that would be old empire not the super zealous 'space nazis' that the FO are. 

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On 6/8/2018 at 2:41 PM, Astech said:

The modern UN... is a military force. Aside from the major payers in the UN performing the same role in numerous countries by themselves, the UN also has a standing army to call upon from its member states to enforce its rules and sanctions.

But it's not. It's an important distinction that it relies on troops seconded from member nations. It doesn't pay for it's own military. That's how Mon Mothma wanted the New Republic to function.

On 6/8/2018 at 2:41 PM, Astech said:

Except it wasn't removed. Not even close. The New Republic in nu canon is explicitly decentralised. Maybe they killed off the elected leader and the first few in the line of succession, but if the New Republic didn't have protocols to keep everyone in that line away from each other except under the most secure circumstances imaginable it's an inexcusable plot-hole. Maybe they destroyed a few branches of judicial and bureaucratic services. So what?

A big deal is made in TFA of the New Republic having been destroyed. I can't remember reading any specifics about how decentralised the New Republic was, but it's clear that the alpha strike from Starkiller Base was sufficient to destroy any kind of cooperative resistance to First Order aggression.

On 6/8/2018 at 2:41 PM, Astech said:

The very concept that the First Order was strong enough to build SKB, have an enormous standing military, be actively aggresive to swathes of the galaxy and have already been acknowledged to exist, yet not be addressed by the new republic is ridiculous. Again, the FO and NR are completely self-contradictory.

I don't see how it's ridiculous. Both factions were forced into an unsatisfactory ceasefire, the Republic variously refused to acknowledge the First Order was a threat, or debated over how much of a threat, or were undecided about how to deal with the threat. There's a very clear parallel here with interwar Europe and the unwillingness of Britain to engage the Germans. It's illustrative that in the real world, despite having military treaties with Poland, the British didn't actually engage with the Germans properly until more than seven months after Poland was invaded, seven months after the declaration of war. It shows us that even when faced with a known threat and an open declaraction of war, a single country can struggle to find the best way forward for months at a time. Imagine instead a huge republic, where some states are totally uninterested in joining the conflict, some are openly hostile to the Republic itself, some are neutral, and of the ones that are interested in taking direct action, none of them can agree how to go about it. It's totally believable to me, that the New Republic failed to address the First Order, was unaware of their Alpha Strike capability, and got caught with their pants down.

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1 hour ago, Chucknuckle said:

But it's not. It's an important distinction that it relies on troops seconded from member nations. It doesn't pay for it's own military. That's how Mon Mothma wanted the New Republic to function.

Yes, the UN does not, under its own charter, have troops with alleigances directly to the UN. However, they do have over 100'000 personnel under the control of the security counsel, which has all the powers of a standard strategic command and then some. So no, it's military is paid for primarily by member states, just like any country, and the army is distributed to achieve the political and economic goals of the UN, just like a any country. It's a technical distinction, not a practical one.

1 hour ago, Chucknuckle said:

A big deal is made in TFA of the New Republic having been destroyed. I can't remember reading any specifics about how decentralised the New Republic was, but it's clear that the alpha strike from Starkiller Base was sufficient to destroy any kind of cooperative resistance to First Order aggression.

This is another example of self-contradictory plot, and circular reasoning; "A thing happened therefore something caused this thing to happen". The trouble with this is that, historically, there are dozens of entire systems that opposed Imperial rule openly. Notably the Mon Calamari, with access to shipyards and a strong industrial base. The idea that any government could be so fragile and blind as to be totally crippled by losing 0.00005% of its infrastructure is absurd. If you took out Washington entirely the US would remain functional indefinitely, and the army would actually become more effective as a state of emergency is declared.

1 hour ago, Chucknuckle said:

I don't see how it's ridiculous. Both factions were forced into an unsatisfactory ceasefire, the Republic variously refused to acknowledge the First Order was a threat, or debated over how much of a threat, or were undecided about how to deal with the threat. There's a very clear parallel here with interwar Europe and the unwillingness of Britain to engage the Germans. It's illustrative that in the real world, despite having military treaties with Poland, the British didn't actually engage with the Germans properly until more than seven months after Poland was invaded, seven months after the declaration of war. It shows us that even when faced with a known threat and an open declaraction of war, a single country can struggle to find the best way forward for months at a time. Imagine instead a huge republic, where some states are totally uninterested in joining the conflict, some are openly hostile to the Republic itself, some are neutral, and of the ones that are interested in taking direct action, none of them can agree how to go about it. It's totally believable to me, that the New Republic failed to address the First Order, was unaware of their Alpha Strike capability, and got caught with their pants down.

Why did they go into a ceasefire? There was no justifiable reason to give an openly hostile military force the time and resources to recoup. In those kinds of scenarios unconditional surrender is the go-to, not a cease fire in favour of the losing party.

Drawing the real life parallel here is accurate, but it was an incredibly stupid (probably treasonous) oversight in real life to let Germany be between wars, and it's the same in the SW universe.

The best real world parallel would be if, in the march to Berlin, the allies suddenly got together with Axis powers and drew up a charter, wherein German forces were given legal jurisdiction over Poland and the right to annex the territory, if Germany was willing to give up France (which was already under allied control at that point). The US and Russia politely don't poach the greatest minds in history, leaving the German people with a lack of R&D for decades to come. 20 Years later Germany develops the neutron bomb and, after a night of swift execution of a master plan published in courthouses all around Germany, every country in the world unilaterally bows before Germany.

What really happened? Germany was beaten into submission, occupied with a heavy presence for decades, stripped of all weapons of war, intentionally put into a crippling economic downturn and left to rot, which it did.

The 'unawareness' of the New Republic is inexcusable, since a pathetically small resistance group learned of its existence months in advance of it becoming operational.

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25 minutes ago, Astech said:

The 'unawareness' of the New Republic is inexcusable, since a pathetically small resistance group learned of its existence months in advance of it becoming operational.

If not longer, depending on when the new Resistance show is set. And in Bloodlines, which is set before Ben's fall to the darkside the Resistance was already formed so might have picked up on it some time before TFA rolled around.

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52 minutes ago, Astech said:

It's a technical distinction, not a practical one.

But it's an important one, because it establishes that the UN "rules" only through the support and donations of it's constituent members. It can't act of it's own accord, because it has no army. And I don't mean sending in peace keepers to Kosovo or something like that, I mean the UN can't invade North Korea or send troops to take out Assad in Syria. Because it's troops are all seconded from member nations, the UN is limited in it's ability to project force across the globe. Which is precisely the goal Mon Mothma wanted for the New Republic: an entity which could not rule by force and fear.

52 minutes ago, Astech said:

If you took out Washington entirely the US would remain functional indefinitely, and the army would actually become more effective as a state of emergency is declared

But the New Republic is not the USA. The USA is a largely homogeneous group with a single shared history and narrative. The NR is comprised of systems and planets utterly alien to one another, with no shared narrative or history, and as many different ways to proceed as there are member systems.

52 minutes ago, Astech said:

Why did they go into a ceasefire? 

They went into a ceasefire for all the reasons that they are usually employed: One side knew they were beaten but the cost of final victory would be too high for the other side, so they negotiated. As it turns out, the First Order managed to negotiate quite well and were able to remilitarise quickly. 

52 minutes ago, Astech said:

Drawing the real life parallel here is accurate, but it was an incredibly stupid (probably treasonous) oversight in real life to let Germany be between wars, and it's the same in the SW universe.

But... that's the point. The NR sucked. It made mistakes, it was shortsighted and paralysed by politics and negotiations. It wasn't the final happily-ever-after peace the characters wanted. It sucked in a way that closely mirrors similar situations in our own world. That makes it a good piece of storytelling as far as I'm concerned, because it presented our characters with a situation that's both challenging, frustrating and realistic.

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7 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

But it's an important one, because it establishes that the UN "rules" only through the support and donations of it's constituent members. It can't act of it's own accord, because it has no army. And I don't mean sending in peace keepers to Kosovo or something like that, I mean the UN can't invade North Korea or send troops to take out Assad in Syria. Because it's troops are all seconded from member nations, the UN is limited in it's ability to project force across the globe. Which is precisely the goal Mon Mothma wanted for the New Republic: an entity which could not rule by force and fear.

I've had to do a good deal of digging here, but ultimately your statement is wrong. For one, the original UN charter of 1945 (still standing to my knowledge), gives the UN control of the total air force of all member states to some degree or another, mostly depending on their financial situation. That's for response to urgent military threats, which can be construed as anything from the Iraq nuclear debacle to a declaration of war by North Korea. While in name the charter members of the UN can simply refuse to support a directive of the security council, it'd alienate them for decades and possibly cut off any support they themselves may receive. The UN thus operates as a directional body for the declaration of large-scale war should it ever be necessary.

Given the fact that the most aggressive countries on the international stage are the security council though (US, UK, Rissia etc), they've yet to actually come to this point.

2 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

But the New Republic is not the USA. The USA is a largely homogeneous group with a single shared history and narrative. The NR is comprised of systems and planets utterly alien to one another, with no shared narrative or history, and as many different ways to proceed as there are member systems.

You're right, although I'm sure African-American citizens would argue that they had a different narrative, as would native Americans, and French colonists. The New Republic is in fact more durable than the US because of this, not less. Each of them independently decided to be part of a larger group, and when that larger group is threatened by 5 of them being ruthlessly killed off, the natural reaction is to band together like they've done in the past and fight off this menace.

2 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

They went into a ceasefire for all the reasons that they are usually employed: One side knew they were beaten but the cost of final victory would be too high for the other side, so they negotiated. As it turns out, the First Order managed to negotiate quite well and were able to remilitarise quickly. 

That's the thing though - the 'cease fire' worked out entirely in the FOs favour. republic negotiators were thus incompetent, which is again out of line (although, Master, the negotiations were short). The republic held all the cards, so negotiating for anything less than total demilitarisation of the Empire, and sanctions against future build up, would have been utterly foolhardy.

2 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

But... that's the point. The NR sucked. It made mistakes, it was shortsighted and paralysed by politics and negotiations. It wasn't the final happily-ever-after peace the characters wanted. It sucked in a way that closely mirrors similar situations in our own world. That makes it a good piece of storytelling as far as I'm concerned, because it presented our characters with a situation that's both challenging, frustrating and realistic.

And again, it's entirely out of character with the rebellion that formed it and the major backing races behind it (bothans pushing for political activity, Mon Cala pushing for military and judicial power, Duros pushing for expansion and exploration, Humans pushing for expansion, and so on). Everything about the Rebellion was focused on quick and decisive action, and for all the major players to fall so far from thier very clear and firm roots is a once again non-nonsensical.

As an alternative, take a look at the prequels republic. As tedious as the politics were, it was essentially the New Republic done right. They'd had over a millennia of nothing but minor border squabbles, while a malignant force lurked behind the scenes, slowly corrupting the body from the inside. As they neared the crescendo of their failure, the Jedi (Resistance equivalent) were sent on wild-goose chases for decades among ever-growing, carefully orchestrated unrest. And when entire worlds were put under siege (Coruscant, for example, which was actually under attack for days - great story), even the nearby systems didn't freak out and secede - they all banded together with such vigour that Palpatine was able to channel it into a total reformation of government into a highly militarised Empire.

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19 minutes ago, Astech said:

IWhile in name the charter members of the UN can simply refuse to support a directive of the security council

This is the key element for me. Close comparisons between the UN and the NR fall down because they're dealing with vastly different scenarios,  but the basic thrust of the comparison stands. Mon Mothma wanted a governing entity that relied on troops seconded from member systems, rather than a body that maintained its own military.

19 minutes ago, Astech said:

The New Republic is in fact more durable than the US because of this, not less. Each of them independently decided to be part of a larger group, and when that larger group is threatened by 5 of them being ruthlessly killed off, the natural reaction is to band together like they've done in the past and fight off this menace.

After the Hosnian strike, the first instinct of each member system is naturally to withdraw and protect themselves first and foremost, and only after their immediate security is established, to think about linking up with one another and retaliating. Remember that the end of The Last Jedi is only three or four days post Hosnia. The story picks up maybe an hour or so after the strike on Starkiller Base and the only measure of time we seem to have is that Rey spends... I think it's three nights on Ach To? 

19 minutes ago, Astech said:

That's the thing though - the 'cease fire' worked out entirely in the FOs favour. republic negotiators were thus incompetent, which is again out of line (although, Master, the negotiations were short). The republic held all the cards, so negotiating for anything less than total demilitarisation of the Empire, and sanctions against future build up, would have been utterly foolhardy.

It's just the Star Wars version of the treaty of Versailles. It's hardly unrealistic when it so closely mirrors an event in our own history.

I doubt the Republic held as many cards as it would have liked. An increased sphere of influence would have meant an increased drain of funds. Systems under Imperial rule would have declared secession expecting the Republic/Rebellion to assist them, forcing the Republic to divert assets. Recaptured systems would have required rehabilitation, humanitarian resources for refugees, rebuilding of infrastructure destroyed in the fighting, etc etc. Remember that the Rebellion in the OT had no territory of it's own, they weren't kitted out for capturing and holding territory. That swing came after Endor and would have totally changed the dynamic of the war.

Once again, I don't want to get bogged down in specifics and appropriateness of analogies, I just want to point out that throughout history, people have routinely failed to act decisively, failed to properly take advantage of military victory, failed to cooperate with their allies at key moments, so on and so forth. Germany from the first to the second world war is the most well known example of a political ***********, but Star Wars isn't breaking any new ground or stretching the bounds of credulity here. The story they're telling us is very believable because it borrows so heavily from our own history.

19 minutes ago, Astech said:

Everything about the Rebellion was focused on quick and decisive action, and for all the major players to fall so far from thier very clear and firm roots is a once again non-nonsensical.

Yes, but the Rebellion had to undergo a paradigm shift at some point. You can't liberate a galaxy using only guerrilla tactics, and the cost of that paradigm shift would have altered things for everyone. Suddenly the Rebellion has to commit forces to protect systems that are under threat from the Empire. They have to provide wide-scale humanitarian aid, deal with refugees, triage calls for aid and the political fallout of prioritising one call over another.

And maybe after Jakke Mon Cala started demanding huge amounts of resources in return for it's massive contribution to the Rebellion, maybe the Duros didn't want to pay, maybe they were forced to and resent the Man Calamari because of it, maybe the funds were mismanaged and now BOTH sides hate each other and so on and so forth. Maybe they loaned enormous sums of money to Ryloth, but under the condition of strict financial reform. Maybe the Twi'leks have been financially crippled ever since and this has made them sympathetic to the First Order. I don't want you to get caught up in the details because it's just an example of what MIGHT have happened. You can change the names, the reasons, the results, the point is there's three decades of galactic history to fill in, and every chance or possibility that allies of convenience during the galactic civil war were at each others throats once the threat of the Empire was out of sight.

I personally don't find it a stretch to imagine that a leadership capable of running a guerrilla military organisation might flounder when required to run a galaxy-spanning bureaucracy. Mon Mothma was clearly a brilliant individual, but she failed for one reason or another to recreate the stability and prosperous Republic that she desired. It's telling that Ackbar was a member of the Resistance, not the Republic. Clearly he had no stomach or desire for politics either, and was happier working from the bridge of a spaceship.

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10 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

This is the key element for me. Close comparisons between the UN and the NR fall down because they're dealing with vastly different scenarios,  but the basic thrust of the comparison stands. Mon Mothma wanted a governing entity that relied on troops seconded from member systems, rather than a body that maintained its own military.

But they're dealing with nearly identical scenarios - a situation where you have hundreds of competing cultural, economical, political and military agendas in one chamber of government (UN/senate). The UN's military is composed primarily of volunteers, like the non-wartime military of the Republic. In times of war both rely on forced involvement. It's the basic way any kind of military organisation of any scale works.

12 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

After the Hosnian strike, the first instinct of each member system is naturally to withdraw and protect themselves first and foremost, and only after their immediate security is established, to think about linking up with one another and retaliating. Remember that the end of The Last Jedi is only three or four days post Hosnia. The story picks up maybe an hour or so after the strike on Starkiller Base and the only measure of time we seem to have is that Rey spends... I think it's three nights on Ach To? 

I can tell you that the first instinct of every military person, from private up to commander in chief (likely also a political leader), is "****, we need to get in contact with our allies ASAP, and coordinate our defence, before long-term communication is severed by this intelligent enemy and we're left on our own." And the first instinct of every citizen is "we're screwed, but they only took out 5 planets. If all of us fight then we'll beat them." The same happens in real life - as soon as any kind of attack is waged in any form, the lines are immediately drawn, and allies know exactly where they stand.

I'm not surprised we didn't see retaliation from the New Republic withing the 3-4 days (your guess is as good as mine) that's elapsed so far, but to say the New Republic is finished, or even that they were dealt a severe blow is serious exaggeration.

17 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

It's just the Star Wars version of the treaty of Versailles. It's hardly unrealistic when it so closely mirrors an event in our own history.

I doubt the Republic held as many cards as it would have liked. An increased sphere of influence would have meant an increased drain of funds. Systems under Imperial rule would have declared secession expecting the Republic/Rebellion to assist them, forcing the Republic to divert assets. Recaptured systems would have required rehabilitation, humanitarian resources for refugees, rebuilding of infrastructure destroyed in the fighting, etc etc. Remember that the Rebellion in the OT had no territory of it's own, they weren't kitted out for capturing and holding territory. That swing came after Endor and would have totally changed the dynamic of the war.

Once again, I don't want to get bogged down in specifics and appropriateness of analogies, I just want to point out that throughout history, people have routinely failed to act decisively, failed to properly take advantage of military victory, failed to cooperate with their allies at key moments, so on and so forth. Germany from the first to the second world war is the most well known example of a political ***********, but Star Wars isn't breaking any new ground or stretching the bounds of credulity here. The story they're telling us is very believable because it borrows so heavily from our own history.

Coincidentally, the treaty of Versailles - as you say a very close mirror to the new Empirical death - lead to the largest and bloodiest conflict in human history, and frankly it was predicted at the time. And of course, the treaty of Versailles actually did require the surrender of virtually all arms, which was a very sensible requirement to the agreement of everyone present on the allies side.

An orderly, accepted retreat skillfully conducted puts far more strain on the retreating party than those advancing. Even if a scorched earth policy is instituted there simply isn't enough time to burn down the fields, factories and military assets in time. So you're right, the expanding sphere of the Rebellion would have been under a good deal of strain, which isn't really that bad, since each individual planet is willfully changing sides and was already almost entirely self-sufficient. Contrast this to the empire, who are compacting more and more enormously expensive capital ships - and their crews, ground support, repair infrastructure, etc - into a smaller and smaller space. Again, they were in the far worse position.

If you look at recent history - the most incompetent part of it - you do see a lot of really stupid decisions. Mainly political, but also a great deal of military failures. Go back 2 centuries to the Napoleonic wars though and you'll find that incredibly different societies banded together into a near-unified (by today's standards, at least) army under a cohesive government. The new canon Republic's death isn't about already incompetent bureaucrats making more bad choices - it's about proven tactical geniuses suddenly failing at their jobs, which is where the problem lies. It's as if Wellington finally stopped Napoleon at Waterloo, only to give him control of Germany!

2 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Yes, but the Rebellion had to undergo a paradigm shift at some point. You can't liberate a galaxy using only guerrilla tactics, and the cost of that paradigm shift would have altered things for everyone. Suddenly the Rebellion has to commit forces to protect systems that are under threat from the Empire. They have to provide wide-scale humanitarian aid, deal with refugees, triage calls for aid and the political fallout of prioritising one call over another.

And maybe after Jakke Mon Cala started demanding huge amounts of resources in return for it's massive contribution to the Rebellion, maybe the Duros didn't want to pay, maybe they were forced to and resent the Man Calamari because of it, maybe the funds were mismanaged and now BOTH sides hate each other and so on and so forth. Maybe they loaned enormous sums of money to Ryloth, but under the condition of strict financial reform. Maybe the Twi'leks have been financially crippled ever since and this has made them sympathetic to the First Order. I don't want you to get caught up in the details because it's just an example of what MIGHT have happened. You can change the names, the reasons, the results, the point is there's three decades of galactic history to fill in, and every chance or possibility that allies of convenience during the galactic civil war were at each others throats once the threat of the Empire was out of sight.

I personally don't find it a stretch to imagine that a leadership capable of running a guerrilla military organisation might flounder when required to run a galaxy-spanning bureaucracy. Mon Mothma was clearly a brilliant individual, but she failed for one reason or another to recreate the stability and prosperous Republic that she desired. It's telling that Ackbar was a member of the Resistance, not the Republic. Clearly he had no stomach or desire for politics either, and was happier working from the bridge of a spaceship.

And, militarily, action is still quick and decisive. The concept of a chain of command and emergency powers (and the SKB debacle is exactly what those kinds of legislative doors are opened for) means that the New Republic could mobilise fully within a week - month tops - of learning of the existence of SKB. There's no reason whatsoever for a political entity to decay that far in 25 years - not when those who created the system still hold positions of influence.

First of all, that's entirely out of character for the Mon Cala - essentially directly opposed to what every creator has done with them before this. What I'm trying to get across is that there is no reason for any of what Disney has portrayed as having happened to have happened. It's like they distanced themselves from the OT through an arbitrary number of years and thought "this'll do, let's start from scratch here and retcon everything until it makes sense to our audience".

Again, that's the circular reasoning route "Mon Mothma failed to establish a strong republic because she failed to establish a strong republic".  That guerilla organisation was made up of some of the greatest, most experienced minds in the galaxy. Ackbar was a law enforcement officer (captain) in the clone wars, capable of setting up an effective law enforcement system and, in conjunction with Mon Mothma, an effective judicial department. Between Leia and Mon Mothma an effective government should be a snap, and their military brilliance is really undisputed. Again, there's no reason to suddenly have a failing republic and - minutes later on screen - a dead republic. Ackbar being happier on a spaceship is great, but when he fails to stop 3 fighters from crippling his command and killing himself it's clear he was out of character yet again.

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Just now, Astech said:

But they're dealing with nearly identical scenarios - a situation where you have hundreds of competing cultural, economical, political and military agendas in one chamber of government (UN/senate). The UN's military is composed primarily of volunteers, like the non-wartime military of the Republic. In times of war both rely on forced involvement. It's the basic way any kind of military organisation of any scale works.

This is true, but the similarities break down because you have Team America, World Police basically underpinning all the UN works. Without that single, enormous military entity in it, the equation changes entirely. It's also very difficult to draw parallels without a more comprehensive knowledge of the relative military strengths of the Republic members. Is there anyone who could, single handedly or with a group of close allies, hope to fight the First Order on anything approaching an even footing?

Just now, Astech said:

I can tell you that the first instinct of every military person, from private up to commander in chief (likely also a political leader), is "****, we need to get in contact with our allies ASAP, and coordinate our defence, before long-term communication is severed by this intelligent enemy and we're left on our own." And the first instinct of every citizen is "we're screwed, but they only took out 5 planets. If all of us fight then we'll beat them." The same happens in real life - as soon as any kind of attack is waged in any form, the lines are immediately drawn, and allies know exactly where they stand.

This may also be true, but I doubt it's as clear cut as you might think. I would imagine the first action of any planetary/system ruler would be to recall all military assets to ensure their own planets and civilians are protected. Retaliation would not be a consideration until felt as secure as was reasonable. It's worth noting it took more than six months before the British engaged the Germans after their declaration of war in 1939.

Just now, Astech said:

to say the New Republic is finished, or even that they were dealt a severe blow is serious exaggeration.

The New Republic is finished. The Hosnian strike saw to that. What's left to the member systems/planets now is to figure out what to do. Do they welcome their new First Order overlords, or go to war? We have no idea what their relative military strengths are like, so it's hard to judge what the fallout will be. Even when Germany was in full swing in WWII there were countries who refused to join the fight. Even the USA only really got involved after Pearl Harbour. 

Just now, Astech said:

Coincidentally, the treaty of Versailles - as you say a very close mirror to the new Empirical death - lead to the largest and bloodiest conflict in human history, and frankly it was predicted at the time.

This is true and I have no doubt we'll see this conflict develop in episode 9, but imagine how WWII might have gone had the Germans maintained their alliance with the Russians and you can see how the equation changes drastically. The Eastern front basically overshadowed the entire war and sucked all the military assets out of Germany. This may well be the position that the First Order is in now. We don't know. Maybe there is no Space Russia to blunt their forces. Maybe the remaining systems/planets are terrified that if they go to war and others don't, they'll be obliterated. Maybe everyone is waiting to see which way this imagined Space Russia will jump before they get involved. We just have to wait and see what we get in Episode 9.

Just now, Astech said:

An orderly, accepted retreat skillfully conducted puts far more strain on the retreating party than those advancing. Even if a scorched earth policy is instituted there simply isn't enough time to burn down the fields, factories and military assets in time. So you're right, the expanding sphere of the Rebellion would have been under a good deal of strain, which isn't really that bad, since each individual planet is willfully changing sides and was already almost entirely self-sufficient. Contrast this to the empire, who are compacting more and more enormously expensive capital ships - and their crews, ground support, repair infrastructure, etc - into a smaller and smaller space. 

This may well be true, but it changes nothing. Germany were also utterly spent after WWI but were able to recover incredibly quickly. What I'm getting at here is that the Rebellion went from a a grand total of however many ships they had at Endor, being a force that could launch a surgical strike at a key installation, to being a force suddenly expected to hold off entire Imperial invasion fleets while providing humanitarian aid and funds to rebuild. This immediately and dramatically changes the way the Rebellion has to fight, and would definitely be a factor in why the defeat at Jakku did not translate into an unconditional surrender.

Just now, Astech said:

Again, that's the circular reasoning route "Mon Mothma failed to establish a strong republic because she failed to establish a strong republic".  That guerilla organisation was made up of some of the greatest, most experienced minds in the galaxy. Ackbar was a law enforcement officer (captain) in the clone wars, capable of setting up an effective law enforcement system and, in conjunction with Mon Mothma, an effective judicial department. Between Leia and Mon Mothma an effective government should be a snap, and their military brilliance is really undisputed. Again, there's no reason to suddenly have a failing republic and - minutes later on screen - a dead republic. Ackbar being happier on a spaceship is great, but when he fails to stop 3 fighters from crippling his command and killing himself it's clear he was out of character yet again.

I feel like part of the reason we're approaching this from different angles is that the expectations you're placing on these characters seems unreasonably high to me. Creating an effective government could never be a snap. At best it would be a gruelling ordeal lasting many many years suffering constant setbacks. In the real world it would just never happen. That's like suggesting that because Obama was a gifted statesman that the USA should have a utopian government now. Hello Trump. It's doubly true when Mon Mothma was deliberately seeking to replace the checks and balances, the opposition and debate that made the Republic function, but would also by necessity make it harder for her to enact any meaningful change. And Ackbar creating an effective galactic legal code because he worked in law enforcement? Local law enforcement, even at the highest levels, is so removed from international law that it's not funny. Ackbar wound up in the Resistance, not the Senate. Maybe he tried to create a galactic legal code but was met with resistance and opposition at every turn and decided his efforts were better spent trying to directly oppose the rising First Order.

How was Ackbar to stop those three fighters? What assets did he have that he failed to use? What decisions could he have made to avoid that fate? It's unrealistic to expect him to pull some trick out of his *** at the last minute to defeat the First Order like that.

Expecting that the cast of the OT could have created a happily ever after government is unrealistic IMO. The flawed one we are getting in the sequel trilogy is much more true to life, I believe. I don't feel like you're making enough allowances for political opposition, selfishness and shortsightedness, from the competing interests of the New Republic. Leia, for instance, was almost immediately removed from politics once her connection to Vader was revealed. In an ideal world people would accept that she is still a brilliant stateswoman and leader, but the stigma had her removed.

 

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Chucklenuckle I know that you like the ST, and the more grey morality, and that is fine all kinds of Star Wars fans out there; however looking at the OT and PT both trilogies are set more in a black and white morality kind of setting. So while some people might enjoy the films and feel they give a darker side or more weight to the universe to many it might feel akin to working real hard and getting a surprise vacation but instead of going to Florida and staying in a nice resort and visiting the theme parks and beaches you instead are sent to Detroit and have to stay in a motel. My big issue with the ST is how it invalidates the efforts of the OT just to set us back to a OT dynamic, and that how it drags the characters through the dirt to put them in poor conditions. Some might argue that it makes them more interesting to be changed that way, though it isn't my cup of tea. And I know we would naturally need to have a conflict, sort of need it for that whole 'Wars' part of the title, but there would be so many more interesting ways to explore it than again the OT dynamic.

I think one of the biggest issue people have with the ST is sort of when it is set and the characters it involves. If they weren't the OT heroes, and it wasn't just set 30 years after ROTJ then it would be a bit more excepted. That, say it was set a hundred or hundreds years down the line with new characters so they could handle stuff like this it would be fine in much the same way that KOTOR is fine. Give the stories more room to grow and for the creators to have more freedom with the story telling. 

3 hours ago, Astech said:

I can tell you that the first instinct of every military person, from private up to commander in chief (likely also a political leader), is "****, we need to get in contact with our allies ASAP, and coordinate our defence, before long-term communication is severed by this intelligent enemy and we're left on our own." And the first instinct of every citizen is "we're screwed, but they only took out 5 planets. If all of us fight then we'll beat them." The same happens in real life - as soon as any kind of attack is waged in any form, the lines are immediately drawn, and allies know exactly where they stand.

Well taking into account real life events like Pearl Harbor and 9/11 it is also clear that when something horrible like that happens it also generally leads to a large amount of patriotism for a period of time that helps unify the people. And, in a system where the New Republic wasn't ruling harshly like the Empire was you'd expect that all the more. The Death Star destroying Alderaan led to planets and races turning to the Rebellion so another tragedy like that would never happen again, yet when Starkiller Base destroyed the Hosnian system it was met with a galactic 'meh, I guess heavy nazi empire is fine.'

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The whole thing about the rebels not going to help leia really makes no sense, they would of been alive under the empire, would of seen friends and family suffer and die but they are just going to sit on their hands and let it happen again?

You've only got to look at the real world reaction of former ussr satellites to communism to see how little sense  that makes.

I can see the territory abandoned by the republic accepting it but not rebel worlds.

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On 6/3/2018 at 6:23 PM, TopHatGorilla said:

resistance-is-futile-you-will-be-assimil:lol:

You have failed your community by not making this reference.You are all responsible for this.

$tar War$ got pwned.:D Shamed Jar Jar Abrams has already contaminated it.:angry:

But yeah Resistance is Rebels, 1st Order is Empire, Republic is history. That is the only premise the suits can ever know about $tar War$. To be honest they should have read Frank Herbert's Dune, it would have been interesting to see some actual political intrigue instead of this garbage social commentary and political criticism they tried to add in Episode 3.

Anyways writing out a synopsis for a narrative to combine all 6 major factions from the three eras into a single timeline just for narrative purposes as why an ARC-170 is fighting a Upsilon Class Shuttle. The Resistance is just another splinter group trying to break away from the Galactic Empire the same way the Alliance did unlike the political dissolution that C.I.S. and Imperials did from the crumbling remains of the Republic (still around but only in a Byzantium state as a Shadow of its former self like the Eastern Roman Empire). however the Alliance does not back the Resistance as it is trying to maintain the treaty agreement with the Empire and Republic. Instead of having new E-wings and K-wings like the Alliance, they take the older X-wings and heavily modernize them. The Resistance fights mostly with the 1st Order who unlike the 4 other galactic nation states maintains influence over much of the galaxy through surreptitious means. They claim to be responsible for the shattering of the Old Republic into the Empire and Confederacy, they have no territory but maintain a stronghold (some might say Strangle-hold) in the Galactic Empire.

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On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:02 AM, Astech said:

Drawing the real life parallel here is accurate, but it was an incredibly stupid (probably treasonous) oversight in real life to let Germany be between wars, and it's the same in the SW universe.

Agreed. But, it happened. So it's believable in a different situation that it might also happen - given that the galaxy is even more war-weary than post-great-war Europe and America.

From their perspective, the Empire no longer has the military superiority or infrastructure to create a galaxy-spanning threat. Plus, Palpatine is dead, Tarkin is dead, Vader is dead, Piett is dead, Thrawn is (presumed) dead. The first three are perceived to be the main architects of most 'war crimes' the Empire is responsible for and the people the New Republic would primarily have wanted to try Nuremberg-fashion, the latter two are the most effective military commanders the Empire had.

We don't know how much stuff the proto-first-order were allowed to keep post-Jakku, how much was built in the intervening years, and how much was stuff Palpatine squirreled away as part of The Contingency*.  Since the Republic wouldn't know about the latter, they may not have realised how much seedcorn potential the First Order had.

But....yeah. That's two-days-after-Jakku decision-making. Bad choices, but perfectly understandable for people who've been fighting a civil war that started on Empire Day and grew out of the clone wars, and has been raging on and off for decades..

 

 

Starkiller Base wasting Hothian Prime meaning that the republic falls apart only makes sense if no-one is prepared to rally a forces against the First Order, and everyone keeps their defence milita home rather than releasing it to a combined republic 'fleet'.

I think the implied point is that The Really Bad Week has wiped out every OT character you knew about; if they hadn't died of old age, then either they were on Hosnian prime or were already part of the Resistance in which case they were either on D'Qar when the dreadnought dropped shots on it or on the Raddus' command deck when Quickdraw's missiles hit it. Essentially, there is no effective figurehead to do the rallying.

Now, if that's supposed to be the case, where there are no designated 'republic fleet' officers off Hosnian, I can agree that that's silly organisational design. But that's hardly unheard of in the star wars universe, where teenagers are elected queen, trading conglomerates with a monopoly on shipping blockade planets against....who, exactly?, Smugglers with no command experience beyond a half-dozen guys fighting a small-unit skirmish are handing general's ranks, and apparently the only way you can make lots of money in a galaxy that's supposedly been at peace (or at least in a shooting-free cold war) for thirty years is the arms trade.

I can't see that no-one (anyone!) post starkiller doesn't think the First Order is an enemy. But presumably they know that Starkiller has now been destroyed, so the First Order is coming with conventional forces, meaning a defensive engagement makes sense. They also know that the First Order's fleet massively outclasses their own system fleets, and they don't really know where it's bases are (so they can't go out and strike at it), and they don't know what the First Order plans to do. The First Order's publicly declared goals is the destruction of the republic as a separate entity, and getting rid of the resistance that they see as republic-sponsored terrorists. They don't know if a First Order destroyer is going to come hooning out of hyperspace at them, and want to keep their fleets home if it does.

Which is exactly the wrong response, but the key thing is that whilst the Republic was decentralised, we don't know if the republic's fleet command was. Individual fleets are owned by the member worlds, who might release them to a central command....but the central command is gone. Anyone they might have trusted to be impartial is gone, meaning that releasing them now means essentially putting them under the command of another member world.....when their own homeworld is under imminent threat.

Now this doesn't mean that the Republic is dead, gone, and incapable of resurrection. As noted by @Astech, I don't see the Mon Cala sitting there and letting Empire MkII take over the galaxy without at least trying to fight. But we don't know how much of that original fleet they still have after ~ 30 years of 'peace'. Even if stuff has been retained, one-month-readiness mothballs isn't unreasonable.

I can easily see it meaning no useful action is taken for days or even weeks. Also - as an aside, Leia's "please help us" message might aslo have been ignored for the same reason that she got forced out of politics; the whole Darth Vader's Daughter thing. Even if worlds were arming up for the fight, they might not have been prepared to send off forces not yet at operational readiness into a massively one-sided fight to save someone they citizens didn't like very much.  

 

 

 

 

* Which felt like a massively petty move for such an imposing sounding plan. I was really hoping for Dark Empire-esque clone shenanigans or something. It never really made sense to me:

I could see Palpatine thinking "If I don't get to survive, everyone dies!" and smashing what's left of the empire but that same emotional state doesn't lend itself to "Except you lot. You go and hide, and try again in a few years"

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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Fascinating thread.

My own perspective as a fan is that this is the material I've got, now I need to find a way that it makes sense, rather than be undone by the myriad ways in which it doesn't. Good material here for both processes but as someone who wishes to continue to enjoy Star Wars, I'll lean heavily towards the former.

I have to say though, going by the films alone, it is difficult... But I simply have to suspend my disbelief whilst watching.

The big thing for me is Ep IX is yet to come. If that doesn't help, then **** is really gonna hit the fan round here :D

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