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What's the point of the Resistance?

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I think that Disney knows, and is building around the idea, that Star Wars is more than just the movies, it's a universe.

I think that the movies give enough information so that the general public/new audience can follow the story. My girlfriend really enjoyed TFA and TLJ and never bother with questions like ''what is the Resistance, really? Where is the First Order really coming from?'' she had enough information to enjoy both movies and understand what's going on. But if you're a fan and want to dig deeper, you'll have to look into other mediums (books, comic books, animated series, video games), or take a look into the Star Wars wookiepedia.

They already showed that they are using cross-media with the apparition of Saw in Rogue One. You can enjoy Rogue One without knowing where he's coming from, but if you want to know, you'll have to look into the Clone Wars and Rebels. And now, Solo's big reveal is the biggest contender as far as needing to watch other medium to understand (I would talk about it if I knew how to make spoiler tag, but since I don't, I'll leave it at that :P ). I was personnally pleased to see them go this far with this approach.

I don't think that's a storytelling failure, I just think that they are experimenting with the cross-medium story-telling to build their Star Wars universe. This allows them to not have to bother with explaining every origins in the movies, because they know that eventually there will be a book explaning it in more details. We don't currently know about Snoke origin or how he became the leader of the First Order, but I'm sure we'll get a book about it in the future. But to enjoy TFA or TLJ, I don't think the general audience really needs to know about it, he's the bad guy at the head of the First Order, and that's all that really matters (not talking about the hardcore fans here). As far as world building goes about the Force Awaken Era, I think that they are waiting after the release of Episode 9 before going into it in more details. And we'll soon get a Resistance animated series, it could bring a couple of answers to where the Republic really stood before TFA and what the Resistance really is.

 

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34 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

The thing is the Disney era creators aren't trying to tell a story. They're making a product. 

Exactly for all his faults Lucas was enthusiastic about star wars, had he teamed his ideas with a better script and a real director the prequels could of been good.

Disney verse is painfully unoriginal Tfa is a remake of hope, rogue one is based on a throw away line about rebel spies, and tlj despite telling you to kill the past is just a terrible remake of empire.

They've put star wars on cups and cabbage it's not special anymore because it's everywhere mass producer and entirely generic.

They've no respect for it, it's just a way to empty wallets.

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2 hours ago, Cr0aker said:

I'm with Hobo on this.  The whole of TLJ I could not get my head around the concept of the F/O, why does this handful of resistance(?!?) members matter, and how if the New Republic spanned a fair chunk of the galaxy... why were they not already in the fight after having their capital destroyed.  Your telling me every single soldier/spaceship/cop/militia member/civilian with a gun was on those handful of planets?!?  That no one else in a galaxy where even the tramp shuttles seem to pack decent firepower... took up the fight?

 

To be fair, one of the missteps of TLJ is that it happens within, like, a week of the end of TFA (no one seems to stay in bacta treatment very long) and takes place in the span of a day or two. (BOTH of these decisions were pretty silly, in my opinion.)

Even if the destruction of the capitol stirred up everyone with a blaster to go out and find and hit back the the F/O, it might have just not happened yet.

Though if it had stirred up ANYONE, you'd think SOMEONE would have responded to Leia's plea for help so... ugh. I enjoyed TLJ, even with all of it's many flaws, but I also wish they'd just told a better story in the first place. That said, this is where we are and hopefully something can be salvaged for a strong finish.

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4 hours ago, Cr0aker said:

Timothy Zhan knows good story telling.  I would have much rather them used their Tarkin esq CGI and made the Heir to the Empire trilogy than what we got.  You could still have had Fisher and Ford and Mark do all (most) the voice acting.  I guess I can still hope for an animated version someday.

Lucasfilm does have an animation division, and I can just imagine how great a CG Animated Thrawn Trilogy could be. We could still get Hamill as Luke, and if they did another 3d animated series they could reuse many of the props and assets used for the films in a show just by lowering the quality of the textures. It really seems like it would be a win win. 

3 hours ago, Red Castle said:

I think that Disney knows, and is building around the idea, that Star Wars is more than just the movies, it's a universe.

I think that the movies give enough information so that the general public/new audience can follow the story. My girlfriend really enjoyed TFA and TLJ and never bother with questions like ''what is the Resistance, really? Where is the First Order really coming from?'' she had enough information to enjoy both movies and understand what's going on. But if you're a fan and want to dig deeper, you'll have to look into other mediums (books, comic books, animated series, video games), or take a look into the Star Wars wookiepedia.

Well based off comments made by higher ups at Lucasfilm they want to acquire a new audience rather than trying to play to the existing fanbase. Despite, that the MCU often does listen to an extent to its fanbase while Lucasfilm seems content with labeling people who have issues with the film (valid or not) slurs and haters. 

3 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

Exactly for all his faults Lucas was enthusiastic about star wars, had he teamed his ideas with a better script and a real director the prequels could of been good.

Disney verse is painfully unoriginal Tfa is a remake of hope, rogue one is based on a throw away line about rebel spies, and tlj despite telling you to kill the past is just a terrible remake of empire.

Lucas is a great idea man who is good at world building and making things stand out, just look at how memorable the OT and PT planets are by comparison to most of the ones introduced in the Disney era films. The same can be said for a number of ships that we see especially in the ST and Lucasfilm's over reliance on old Mcquarrie art in Rebels, TFA, TLJ, and Solo. However, he is HORRIBLE at writing dialogue and HORRIBLE at directing people. The prequels as a whole would have been better had he not procrastinated writing scripts so that people could look them over and fluff them up and had other directors conveying what he wanted to try and get across. Granted he effectively directed ANH and shadow directed ROTJ. 

2 hours ago, NotBatman said:

To be fair, one of the missteps of TLJ is that it happens within, like, a week of the end of TFA (no one seems to stay in bacta treatment very long) and takes place in the span of a day or two. (BOTH of these decisions were pretty silly, in my opinion.)

Even if the destruction of the capitol stirred up everyone with a blaster to go out and find and hit back the the F/O, it might have just not happened yet.

Though if it had stirred up ANYONE, you'd think SOMEONE would have responded to Leia's plea for help so... ugh. I enjoyed TLJ, even with all of it's many flaws, but I also wish they'd just told a better story in the first place. That said, this is where we are and hopefully something can be salvaged for a strong finish.

I think it might be closer to 3 days, or less, between films, its just however long it took for Rey to get to Luke and as the film shows you can go from literally one end of the galaxy to the other in less 6 hours in that pod part of a Resistance Transport. I imagine that the Falcon could travel faster. 

The timeframe of TFA and TLJ are really one of the points that irks me, since it just comes across as the week from ****. The New Republic is destroyed, Han dies, Luke dies, Ackbar dies, Wedge probably died since he was last seen teaching on the capital, and the galaxy is taken over by the FO despite having lost a massive DS III, a fleet, Phasma, and their Supreme Leader. Add on the fact that Leia will either be killed of screen between films, or recast with the rumor being Meryl Streep at the moment, and that Lando might show up based on some rumors just tells me he'll likely be killed off too. By the time the ST trilogy is done I fully expect that all of the OT characters will have been killed for the sake of drama and propping up the new characters with the only characters remaining being Chewie, R2, and 3PO who will be relegated to the background as much as possible. I mean BB-8 is clearly them wanting to just replace R2 for the most part, despite the fact R2 is the one telling the story of Star Wars to be recorded into the Journal of the Wils. 

Edited by Animewarsdude

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45 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Well based off comments made by higher ups at Lucasfilm they want to acquire a new audience rather than trying to play to the existing fanbase. Despite, that the MCU often does listen to an extent to its fanbase while Lucasfilm seems content with labeling people who have issues with the film (valid or not) slurs and haters. 

I would be curious to see those comments and in what context they were said. I think it's pretty normal for any buisness to want to aquire a new audience.

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2 hours ago, Red Castle said:

I would be curious to see those comments and in what context they were said. I think it's pretty normal for any buisness to want to aquire a new audience.

No you want to grow while keeping existing customers.

In 2004 gw did the same they started ignoring veteran players and focusing on kids, they cancelled all but two games warhammer and 40k, what followed was a decade of decline that allowed other companies to claim disgruntled players and claim space in the market. 

you can't crap over the fan base and expect them to stay.

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5 hours ago, Red Castle said:

I would be curious to see those comments and in what context they were said. I think it's pretty normal for any buisness to want to aquire a new audience.

Somewhat blown out of proportion but she does bring up the points out the idea that girls couldn't relate to Luke

And that she doesn't feel any need to cater to male fans. http://comicbook.com/starwars/2016/11/29/lucasfilm-president-kathleen-kennedy-says-she-doesnt-need-to-cat/

She is rather outspoken on the matter of older fans and wanting to appeal to new fans.  I don't think she has to completely cater to old fans but you need to give them a bone and effectively bringing back the old cast only to kill them is a bit bitter. I understand that Han would die, but having the older characters pretty much just die without much real fanfare or just letting them pass on the mantle and go off into the sunset or step back into the role of side characters. 

Not to mention her desire to have strong empowered female characters in Star Wars, despite the fact that Leia and Padme both fit that role and are classic characters. And how most people who critize these new characters are called out as sexist, being manbabies who can't accept women, or that Star Wars needs less white men on and behind the screen. That last one being JJ's comment. Yet, it seems fans don't have issues with Leia, Padme, Mon Mothma, Hera, or Ahsoka to name a few. Conversely look at the female characters given to us in the new films, Rey is (in my opinion) most interesting in her silent introduction and is underdeveloped, Jyn is fairly boring and not really an active protagonist, Phasma has a good actress behind her but is criminally underused, Holdo is antagonistic solely to drive the plot, Rose has too many issue to list right here, Qi'ra is underveloped likely for the sake of sequels to flesh her out, and L3 is either annoying or a parody of a SJW activist that doesn't come across as well as they might have liked.

I want good new characters regardless of gender, though I'd even more love if they actually tried to have more alien and droid characters in their casts, Rogue One only has K2, and Solo meaningfully only has Chewie. I understand they don't want to overload the main cast on the episodic films but the other films should be places they could add all kinds of new and memorable characters. 

Edited by Animewarsdude

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Just now, Animewarsdude said:

despite the fact that Leia and Padme both fit that role and are classic characters.

Yeah...

Kinda but not really. Leia is a classic case of being a strong, empowered character... for a woman. If you compare her exploits to Luke's, or even Han's, she's not really up there. Yeah, she chokes Jabba out, but does she get a lightsaber? Does she fly a snubfighter? And yes, the trilogy is mostly about Luke's "hero's journey" so Leia must by necessity take a back seat. But that's Kennedy's point. If we're going to have another hero finding their way in the galaxy, there's no reason it couldn't be a woman. 

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36 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

So I ask about exemple of comments made by higher ups at Lucasfilm implying that they only care about the new audience and doesn't care about the existing fanbase, and you give me two comments where she says that she wants to bring more diversity to the cast. What does it have to do with not trying to play to the existing fanbase?

43 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

She is rather outspoken on the matter of older fans and wanting to appeal to new fans.  I don't think she has to completely cater to old fans but you need to give them a bone and effectively bringing back the old cast only to kill them is a bit bitter. I understand that Han would die, but having the older characters pretty much just die without much real fanfare or just letting them pass on the mantle and go off into the sunset or step back into the role of side characters. 

The sequel trilogy was not meant to be about continuing Han, Luke and Leia's journey, it's about the new characters and the last Skywalker.

The Prequels were about Anakin and Obi-Wan, leading to the fall of Anakin and their confrontation on Mustafar and the rise of Palpatine; The original trilogy was about Luke's journey, the redemption of Vader and the fall of the Empire; The Sequel trilogy is about Kylo Ren (the last Skywalker) continuous fall to the dark side and Rey rising to confront him and probably more that we'll find out in episode 9 (it's hard to judge a product when it is still not finished), my guess is the end of the Skywalker bloodline.

As far as older characters just dying without much real fanfare, I simply disagree. Han's death was really emotional and the last step Ben needed to do to completely move to the dark side, before killing him he was still torn apart, there was still light in him; and Luke's death (including his confrontation with Kylo) is probably my favorite scene in the entire saga. Just perfect. As shown at the end with the kids, Luke Skywalker legends will be told and will inspire an entire new generation. Luke was never my favorite character in the OT (I always prefered Han) but man does his death makes me rethink everything about him. There is so much poetry in those scenes, they are, in my opinion, the perfect sendoff for those heroes from my youth. They were not just passing on the mantle, they were very important in the evolution of our new characters. 

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1 hour ago, Chucknuckle said:

Yeah...

Kinda but not really. Leia is a classic case of being a strong, empowered character... for a woman. If you compare her exploits to Luke's, or even Han's, she's not really up there. Yeah, she chokes Jabba out, but does she get a lightsaber? Does she fly a snubfighter? And yes, the trilogy is mostly about Luke's "hero's journey" so Leia must by necessity take a back seat. But that's Kennedy's point. If we're going to have another hero finding their way in the galaxy, there's no reason it couldn't be a woman. 

Eh, I mean I guess. Leia proves more skilled and better at rescuing herself than Luke or Han did, and she is a **** of a lot emotionally stronger than Luke is in the films and I'd argue have as much if not more courage. Luke sort of bumbles around for the most part during ANH, lets his feelings get him in trouble and ultimately leading in him losing a hand in ESB, and really is only in control in ROTJ. Leia on the other hand also does get captured by Jabba but frees herself in the chaos and kills her captor, and was able to not end up as a near meal for the Ewoks like Luke, Han, and Chewie, though Luke does help solve that issue with 3PO and the force. The OT might have been Luke's story but Leia was infinitely more competent in most scenarios. 

I don't mind having Rey as the protagonist in principle, I just want her to be better written. I want more of her intro scene where I felt for her and thought she was interesting but she seems to not fail at anything or have difficulty doing anything for the first time like flying the falcon as well through derelict ships, winning a fight with a lightsaber the first time using one, triple killing ties the first time she fires the Falcon's guns. All of that is likely part of them trying to write her as strong and competing with superhero films but hasn't helped her be as strong as a character as she could be and I want her to be. It takes a lot of agency from the character when the force just auto levels them to be strong without effort and somehow learning all of Kylo's lightsaber skills due to their force connection. If this was a superhero flick and she was bit by a radioactive bug that gave her powers that would be fine, but when we have two generations of characters that needed to train to earn their strengths it comes of as lazy when they don't do the same for her, yet another reason why I wish they had allowed for a timeskip between TFA and TLJ so that at the very least we could assume she did it off screen. 

16 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

The sequel trilogy was not meant to be about continuing Han, Luke and Leia's journey, it's about the new characters and the last Skywalker.

The Prequels were about Anakin and Obi-Wan, leading to the fall of Anakin and their confrontation on Mustafar and the rise of Palpatine; The original trilogy was about Luke's journey, the redemption of Vader and the fall of the Empire; The Sequel trilogy is about Kylo Ren (the last Skywalker) continuous fall to the dark side and Rey rising to confront him and probably more that we'll find out in episode 9 (it's hard to judge a product when it is still not finished), my guess is the end of the Skywalker bloodline.

As far as older characters just dying without much real fanfare, I simply disagree. Han's death was really emotional and the last step Ben needed to do to completely move to the dark side, before killing him he was still torn apart, there was still light in him; and Luke's death (including his confrontation with Kylo) is probably my favorite scene in the entire saga. Just perfect. As shown at the end with the kids, Luke Skywalker legends will be told and will inspire an entire new generation. Luke was never my favorite character in the OT (I always prefered Han) but man does his death makes me rethink everything about him. There is so much poetry in those scenes, they are, in my opinion, the perfect sendoff for those heroes from my youth. They were not just passing on the mantle, they were very important in the evolution of our new characters. 

I don't need it to be about them, but I'd like more closure to them and a happier ending than Han leaving his wife and becoming a penniless smuggler, Leia fighting her whole life for something that just collapses, and Luke effectively creating a galaxy wide issue only to then run someplace to die rather than trying to fix the issue. From what we've seen the ST is just not what I would have like explored, having a small seditious force rising up and trying to cripple the New Republic or erupt the galaxy into war again rather than a return to the OT dynamic. 

And you know, you might be right, perhaps JJ might turn around and make the ST into something that ties it all together and is enjoyable for all, TLJ just doesn't feel like a middle chapter at all and I partially think we might end up with them trying to Marvelfy the mainline films with them just continuing on and on rather than being a focused 3 part story. If I walk out of Episode 9 and find it to be a well tied together trilogy I will be one of the first to sing its praises but so far I don't see it.

You obviously like the ST, or at least TLJ, and I'm glad to hear it, but I just personally don't share the same opinion. Han in TFA felt like he was just sent off to die based off his talk with Leia and him going out on the bridge over nothing. And, Luke to me was vastly out of character to what we are shown in the OT with the only moment he felt like himself being that scene between him and R2. 

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1 hour ago, Animewarsdude said:

I don't mind having Rey as the protagonist in principle, I just want her to be better written

I’m like that with all the main characters. When I watched TFA I really liked all the characters, the movie just didn’t seem to have anything coherent for them to be doing. It was just a bunch of set pieces strung together with barely understood rationale. 

 

1 hour ago, Animewarsdude said:

I don't need it to be about them, but I'd like more closure to them and a happier ending than Han leaving his wife and becoming a penniless smuggler, Leia fighting her whole life for something that just collapses, and Luke effectively creating a galaxy wide issue only to then run someplace to die rather than trying to fix the issue. From what we've seen the ST is just not what I would have like explored, having a small seditious force rising up and trying to cripple the New Republic or erupt the galaxy into war again rather than a return to the OT dynamic. 

You really are echoing my opinion on these movies. At the end of RotJ the empire is (presumably) overthrown, the sith are destroyed, the Jedi have returned (see title of movie), the new republic is going to establish peace, and Han and Leia get their happily ever after. Now, to have a sequel you need drama so you’d have to undo some of that, but they undid ALL of it, and that just cheapens the OT, makes the entire franchise feel pointless because no progress ever gets made. No matter what struggles the protagonists go through, the universe will just get reset in another 30 years. 

 

1 hour ago, Animewarsdude said:

And you know, you might be right, perhaps JJ might turn around and make the ST into something that ties it all together and is enjoyable for all,

After TFA, my thinking was “meh, but the characters are interesting, so maybe it’ll work as a full trilogy”. Unfortunately, if rumors are to be believed, Rian Johnson basically torpedoed any chance of that so I don’t have much hope for it anymore. I actually liked TLJ, more than TFA, but not to the point that it was worth ruining the trilogy for it, and it kinda seems like that may be what happened. Unless we get “episode 9, part 1” that starts with kylo waking up after having dreamed TLJ...

Edited by Forgottenlore

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20 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

I’m like that with all the main characters. When I watched TFA I really liked all the characters, the movie just didn’t seem to have anything coherent for them to be doing. It was just a bunch of set pieces strung together with barely understood rationale.

You really are echoing my opinion on these movies. At the end of RotJ the empire is (presumably) overthrown, the sith are destroyed, the Jedi have returned (see title of movie), the new republic is going to establish peace, and Han and Leia get their happily ever after. Now, to have a sequel you need drama so you’d have to undo some of that, but they undid ALL of it, and that just cheapens the OT, makes the entire franchise feel pointless because no progress ever gets made. No matter what struggles the protagonists go through, the universe will just get reset in another 30 years. 

After TFA, my thinking was “meh, but the characters are interesting, so maybe it’ll work as a full trilogy”. Unfortunately, if rumors are to be believed, Rian Johnson basically torpedoed any chance of that so I don’t have much hope for it anymore. I actually liked TLJ, more than TFA, but not to the point that it was worth ruining the trilogy for it, and it kinda seems like that may be what happened. Unless we get “episode 9, part 1” that starts with kylo waking up after having dreamed TLJ...

I do find the new characters interesting to a degree, especially Kylo who is probably the best we could hope for a follow up villain to Vader. The fans would always compare the two, might as well make that part of his character. 

They could have done a lot, they could have changed the dynamics but they went into planning these films with I think two main ideas 1) make it safe and 2) NO POLITICS as a plot point. Okay, someone can argue the animal rights stuff but I mean them basically saying that the fans don't want to see political talk and trade negotiations. This led to us getting a redux of the OT and invalidating the OT characters to play towards memberberries/nostalgia to hopefully make a film that people would like.

I think I'd like TLJ more if it wasn't centered around the familiar characters, if it was people we weren't decades invested in where they could explore a more grey view of the force and the like it would be fine, though I'd still call BS on the hyperspace attack but that is neither here nor there. And it just sort of seems odd to take a series that is generally so very black and white, as far as the saga films, and then introduce a whole bunch of grey especially when it likely will be back to black and white morality in Episode 9. 

Unless they have episode 9 start with Kylo having a bad feeling and then crumpling to ash as Doctor Strange finding another failed path to stopping Thanos and this whole time Disney has been working towards creating a multiverse on their properties I think what we got is what we got. People have called for years to have the prequels remade or strucken from canon but that won't happen and I highly doubt it will happen here. The ST is what it is and will always be there as the next step for the OT characters and the Star Wars universe as far as the saga films go. At least if any of us don't like that we do have an alternative 'Legend' that we can imagine the OT characters traveled down instead. Right now I'm more excited for the Underworld show and the Game of Thrones led trilogy than I am for Episode 9 and possibly the end of the Skywalker sage. 

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Back to the point of "what's the point of the Resistance."

What is the Resistance fighting for? What's their goal?

From everything I've read, they boil down to a militant vigilante group that is trying to circumvent a negotiated truce between 2 legitimate governments. As an unsanctioned group they can operate without breaking the terms of the truce and force an all-out war. Instead, they are trying to underhandedly wipe out a government and military that they consider as an eminent threat to the New Republic.

But it's entirely possible that Starkiller Base was a desperate option of the First Order to stop the illegal activities of the Resistance. From the First Order's point of view, they see the Resistance as government-sponsored terrorists operating within established First Order space. The First Order attack on the New Republic could be seen as an act of self-preservation.

Now that the New Republic is wiped out, what's the point of rooting for the Resistance? There have been 2 Republic-style governments in the galaxy. Both ended in failure. Are we all hoping that the Resistance will establish a New New Republic. That the 3rd time will be charm? Why are we rooting for the Resistance to succeed?

With the Original Star Wars Trilogy, we could root for the success of the Rebellion, because we believed when they overthrew the tyrannical Empire that things would be better. But now we known the Rebellion's victory did not make things better. It may have even made things worse with a continuation of hostilities and the creation of more weapons of mass destruction. So again, why are we rooting for the Resistance?

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3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I don't mind having Rey as the protagonist in principle, I just want her to be better written.

All I do is apply the same open mind that I give to Luke. We never see him train with a lightsaber (bar the remote-sparring scene on the Falcon) and yet he goes toe-to-toe with Vader the first time they meet, and he defeats him the second time he meets. The first time he hops into a fighter jet he outflies trained, experienced military pilots and pulls of a bull one in a million shot to blow up the deathstar. The first time he mans the Falcons guns he blows up two (or is it three?) TIE fighters. He learns telekinesis on his own, one shots an Imperial walker, etc etc.

If I can believe Luke can do all that with the training he had, then I can be generous enough to believe Rey can pull off the feats she has. 

1 hour ago, patox said:

But now we known the Rebellion's victory did not make things better. It may have even made things worse with a continuation of hostilities and the creation of more weapons of mass destruction. So again, why are we rooting for the Resistance?

I hesitate to draw analogies between Star Wars and the real world, but think of the First Order as the Third Reich. It rose from the ashes of defeat and threatened to destroy the world as we know it. The Rebels won the first war, but they lost the peace. The First Order retained too much power and influence and were able to develop a super-weapon with which to alpha-strike the Republic and take control. It's akin to Germany having developed nuclear weapons in secret prior to 1939.

That doesn't mean the Allies were wrong to oppose the Germans in the second world war, just because the first world war wasn't entirely decisive.

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5 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

All I do is apply the same open mind that I give to Luke. We never see him train with a lightsaber (bar the remote-sparring scene on the Falcon) and yet he goes toe-to-toe with Vader the first time they meet, and he defeats him the second time he meets. The first time he hops into a fighter jet he outflies trained, experienced military pilots and pulls of a bull one in a million shot to blow up the deathstar. The first time he mans the Falcons guns he blows up two (or is it three?) TIE fighters. He learns telekinesis on his own, one shots an Imperial walker, etc etc.

If I can believe Luke can do all that with the training he had, then I can be generous enough to believe Rey can pull off the feats she has. 

We see him train in ANH and get zapped, and frustrated with the difficulty of trying to just use the force without prior knowledge. Vader was toying with him during their first fight he starts off one handed and isn't really trying to kill Luke and Luke still ends up losing a hand. And ROTJ is a year after ESB giving Luke some time to train, and really the only thing he even has on Vader is being the man's son making him a weak spot for Vader. Luke has the throwaway line of being the best bush pilot that Biggs knows, and doesn't exactly outfly everyone since he needs Wedge's help to take out the fighter tailing him, and only wins in the end with a small influence from the force likely through Obi-wan and Han and Chewie coming to save his bacon at the last second. And unlike Rey, who again triple killed 3 ties with 1 shot, Luke misses a fair share of his first few attacks against the ties.

Yes, it is a matter of suspension of disbelief but throw away lines and not completely succeeding at everything the first time. I can make an allowance for Rey somehow beating Kylo who was wounded from Chewie but again she goes from not knowing the force existed to being able to use a Jedi Mind Trick, use the force to grab the Lightsaber from the snow, and use it to drive her victory against Kylo. If she was just given a timeskip with implied training or given some of these throw away lines I'd be much more accepting, and hopefully Episode 9 will have a timeskip to help with that. 

5 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

I hesitate to draw analogies between Star Wars and the real world, but think of the First Order as the Third Reich. It rose from the ashes of defeat and threatened to destroy the world as we know it. The Rebels won the first war, but they lost the peace. The First Order retained too much power and influence and were able to develop a super-weapon with which to alpha-strike the Republic and take control. It's akin to Germany having developed nuclear weapons in secret prior to 1939.

*looks to the red flag with a black symbol and the group using stormtroopers* Yup, that they are. The OT was based off WWII with the empire being loosely based around Germany from it, though the ST makes the FO a bit more overt. Though I do have to ask, for those who've been reading more books than me, has it been shown if the FO is actually a galactic entity with a governing body/territory? All I've gotten from what I've read and seen is that it was something shadowy that the Republic didn't take seriously and that certain members of the senate were secretly apart of. 

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9 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

Woah, what? Another bit I completely missed. 

In Bloodlines, the book where Leia's connection to Vader was revealed to the other senators, there were some senators who were members of the FO and plotting behind the scenes of the New Republic. They weren't part of the FO, they were there as representatives of their homeworlds but they were still supporting and part of the FO. Stuff like that is what makes me question the FO being a galactic entity with borders as opposed to something more secret organizationish. 

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11 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I don't need it to be about them, but I'd like more closure to them and a happier ending than Han leaving his wife and becoming a penniless smuggler, Leia fighting her whole life for something that just collapses, and Luke effectively creating a galaxy wide issue only to then run someplace to die rather than trying to fix the issue. From what we've seen the ST is just not what I would have like explored, having a small seditious force rising up and trying to cripple the New Republic or erupt the galaxy into war again rather than a return to the OT dynamic. 

I personnally really liked that turn of event. I never was a fan of perfect ending. The Republic was restored and there was peace everywhere, Han and Leia got married and had some children and Luke created a Jedi Academy to restore the Jedi order, and they lived happily everafter. That's not what really happened. The Republic was restored but was so afraid to start a new war that they did nothing against the rise of the First Order (like France and England with the Third Reich); Han was never meant for a family life and staying in one place so he took the sky whenever he could, not being there for his child and ultimately being part of his fall to the dark side; Leia starting the Resistance since the Republic will do nothing even though she is tired of fighting; Luke trying to build a jedi academy but failing his nephew, seeing the weakness of the Skywalker blood and his own vulnerability to the dark side, decide to seclude himself and shut off himself from the Force so that the Jedi order will die with him. But ultimately, both Han and Luke had a great sendoff showing their heroic side. Han, even though inside of him he knows that his son is lost, still try one last time to get him back from the dark side, and even though Kylo kills him, still show love and forgiveness for his son. Luke use all his power to come face the First Order so that his sister's Resistance can live another day and continue the fight. He then becomes a Legend that will inspire a new generation as the man that stood alone against the First Order.

A broken Luke was actually Georges Lucas idea of his draft for episode 7, and one of the few things that JJ kept. But instead of having him come back in the middle of episode 7, he made it the goal of episode 7 to find him back, which allowed him to give more spotlight to Han in episode 7 as the first mentor. Rian then had to find a reason why Luke would be that broken. What is the biggest weakness of Luke? Family. His anger when Vader says that he'll turn his sister is what allowed him to beat him, and for a moment, he was about to kill Vader, just like for a small moment he was about to kill Ben. Seeing his own weakness to the dark side, with a little self pity proper to Luke, I personnally find it believable that Luke would just go away, afraid that he'll continue to do more harm if he stays.

And by he way, thanks for your respectful answer, it's refreshing. We might not agree, but it doesn't mean we must not respect each other point of view.

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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:20 PM, Chucknuckle said:

This is very true, but the question wasn't "which ones are the bad guys" it was "who are the bad guys and where did they come from?".

TFA makes it abundantly clear in the opening sequence that the First Order are the bad guys and the Resistance are the good guys. The question is more "Wait, I thought the Empire lost after the last movie? Why is there still a resistance if the good guys won? What's going on?"

You don't get any of that line of thought in ANH or ESB because it doesn't actually matter at that point. Who cares how the Emperor came to be Emperor, and what the story with the senate was? He the bad guy. That's all we need to know. But by the time TFA rolls around we're invested, there's been thirty years of speculation and (now) legends material written about the subject, so we were all curious, and we basically got nothing. It DOES all get fleshed out for us evetually, but only once you read the expanded material in the novels and comics etc.

This. You don't need to explain much about the rebels; by definition, if the Galactic Empire is 'evil' (and the intro crawl that's our going-into-the-story exposition says exactly that) and you're rebelling against it, then you're the good guys* and you must be the underdog.

But TFA is set after a war the good guys won. So to get back to something like the original starting point of powerful bad guys versus underdog good guys, either:

  • The good guys have to have lost again in a war off-camera since the end of Return of the Jedi (which kind of cheapens the original trilogy)
  • The good guys have to turn into the bad guys (some of them, maybe. But have -for example - Leia turn into post-revolution Soviet Dictator would have had star wars fans actually try and lynch the directors...)
  • Have the bulk of the good guys refuse to get involved when the bad guys pop up again (hence, new empire versus new rebellion whilst the republic sits there fat, dumb and happy, with a few key individuals who do register what's going on either advocating for doing things officially or quietly doing things unofficially,  a la early WWII USA), which is what we got.

 

I don't think anyone minds it as a story choice. But it's something that isn't explained well at all if all you have to go on is the film.

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 6:41 PM, NotBatman said:

To be fair, one of the missteps of TLJ is that it happens within, like, a week of the end of TFA (no one seems to stay in bacta treatment very long) and takes place in the span of a day or two. (BOTH of these decisions were pretty silly, in my opinion.) 

Even if the destruction of the capitol stirred up everyone with a blaster to go out and find and hit back the the F/O, it might have just not happened yet.

Though if it had stirred up ANYONE, you'd think SOMEONE would have responded to Leia's plea for help so... ugh. I enjoyed TLJ, even with all of it's many flaws, but I also wish they'd just told a better story in the first place. That said, this is where we are and hopefully something can be salvaged for a strong finish.

 

Agreed wholeheartedly. We don't know (purely from the films!) how long it is between Hope and Empire. But Luke has grown up a bit and is distinctly less dweebish ("Commander Skywalker"), Han's sort-of-commitment-but-not shows through - he's stuck around despite the price on his head but 'that bounty hunter' changed his mind. He's not backing out per se but he knows he needs to deal with this. You can see people have grown, the story has moved, and there's a period of 'stuff happens' that later stories can be set in and which allows the narrative to move on.

For starters, long enough to explain where Vader - last seen pinwheeling off into space in a small fighter that appeared to be roughly the same design as something described as 'short-range' was able to go and gather up an entire fleet of destroyers complete with his personal mobile oppression palace.

It's long enough to explain why we never saw the transports, or the speeders, for other pilots to turn up in Rogue Group, and for a new general to be commanding the operations.

 

By comparison, the time jump between Awakens and Last Jedi is also not stated directly, buy Rey's story appears to follow immediately, Finn is still unconscious, the Resistance is still on D'Qar, etc, etc. Which makes it more awkward to explain where the fleet was during the previous film, where Holdo was during the briefing in the base, and particularly where Crimson and Cobalt squadrons where when  two squadrons of heavy strategic bombers would have been a really useful asset for an occasion of the Resistance doing literally the one job they are supposed to be used for.....

Also.....yeah. Leia broadcasting a message to the galaxy and getting back a response of "you know what, no-one cares!" is a terribly depressing one. If, aside from these two dozen or so people and a couple of racecourse cleaning staff, no-one gives a monkeys about the empire resurgent reconquering the galaxy, then the latter almost deserves to win.

 

 

* for a given value of good, but this is simple black-and-white storylines rather than the moral grey of people like saw gerrera

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

By comparison, the time jump between Awakens and Last Jedi is also not stated directly, buy Rey's story appears to follow immediately, Finn is still unconscious, the Resistance is still on D'Qar, etc, etc. Which makes it more awkward to explain where the fleet was during the previous film, where Holdo was during the briefing in the base, and particularly where Crimson and Cobalt squadrons where when  two squadrons of heavy strategic bombers would have been a really useful asset for an occasion of the Resistance doing literally the one job they are supposed to be used for.....

Also.....yeah. Leia broadcasting a message to the galaxy and getting back a response of "you know what, no-one cares!" is a terribly depressing one. If, aside from these two dozen or so people and a couple of racecourse cleaning staff, no-one gives a monkeys about the empire resurgent reconquering the galaxy, then the latter almost deserves to win.

So, I played through the Battlefront DLC story missions again and it looks like there are only hours between Starkiller base firing and its destruction as Iden can see the SK beams from a planet and gets aboard a new star destroyer and after they jump into the system where Starkiller base is it explodes. She then with the other characters jump to the D'Qar where the Resistance is already loading up their ships and preparing to flee with her and the group being given a mission...one we likely we have to get a book for based off of how EA seems to just not want to continue with the game after the lootbox issue. Still, this effectively means that A) that Lucasfilm is unable to line up events themselves or B) that the difference in time between TFA and TLJ is just a hyperspace jump between and from TLJ we know you can get from one end of the galaxy to the other in 6 hours.

I think they've tried to explain that Cobalt Squadron was away doing a relief mission with the Ninka in TFA but that doesn't explain where the rest of their fleet was especially since their base was so small that they wouldn't really be landed there. It also makes it worse too when you think about how the Resistance has supposedly been going around helping people attacked by the FO and other planets and as soon as they ask for help either all their allies are dead or all their humanitarian effort was for not. All I can guess is that based off TLJ ending with the kids and if there is a time skip between the films that the new Resistance will be made up of the children who DO believe in justice and dreams while all the adults are the ones who are willing to allow evil to exist. 

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Honestly I doubt the republic's popularity was high after they retreated to the core and left systems to defend themselves, to go from being protected by the empire to being at the mercy of pirates and hutts must have been a nasty shock.

in that situation you might welcome a return to order.

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12 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

Honestly I doubt the republic's popularity was high after they retreated to the core and left systems to defend themselves, to go from being protected by the empire to being at the mercy of pirates and hutts must have been a nasty shock.

in that situation you might welcome a return to order.

Well you weren't "protected" by The Empire though. There might have been more order but you were as likely to be ill-used by The Empire as pirates or hutts. A government isn't paying (in that someone is essentially a slave) for the sorts of resources that build monstrosities such as Death Stars or StarKiller Base. 

 

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2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Well you weren't "protected" by The Empire though. There might have been more order but you were as likely to be ill-used by The Empire as pirates or hutts. A government isn't paying (in that someone is essentially a slave) for the sorts of resources that build monstrosities such as Death Stars or StarKiller Base. 

 

Remember Eisenhower’s Chance for Peace speech:

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.

 

So imagine the cost of a Death Star and how the Empire could have put those resources to actually help it’s citizens. 

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