Jump to content
feydruatha

Scum and villainy faction talk(Solo spoilers)

Recommended Posts

On 5/27/2018 at 11:22 PM, Alpha17 said:

NO SCUM PLEASE!!!

Scum works, to a point, in X-Wing, but it should stay out of Legion just like it has Armada.  None of the Scum factions were ever serious contenders in the GCW, most certainly not in terms of force-on-force ground combat.  

If a new faction is added, it should be from the Clone Wars, or ****, I'd take even the Vong well before Scum. 

That would be a valid objection if Legion were either a "grand strategy" game or even a 6-15mm models "mass battle" wargame, but it isn't. Even at the doubled points value, it's barely putting enough figures on the table for either side to be considered company scale, and the standard size is barely platoon scale. You're seriously going to argue that the biggest criminal syndicates in the galaxy can't muster up fifty or so mooks?

Imperial garrison deploying to ferret out a criminal base. Scum attacking an Imperial garrison in retaliation. Scum double-crossing a Rebel cell they were paid to smuggle weapons to. Rebels raiding a criminal base for supplies. Rebels attacking local criminal gangs to gain support from a populace. Imperials attacking criminals they believe are smuggling weapons to the Alliance. Etc etc etc. There are easily enough conflict scenarios to justify them as a faction, and that's before we consider that "realism"(in terms of the setting's internal logic) isn't the biggest factor to consider in a game where every minor skirmish fought across the length and breadth of the galaxy is under the command of the same handful of big-name characters from the movies - there are significantly fewer mental contortions required to justify a criminal gang fighting Rebels or Imperials than are needed to reconcile the omnipresence of Vader et al. And an order of magnitude less than necessary to justify *entirely defunct* forces like Clones or Separatists fighting Rebels and Imperials.

 

Bring on the Scum, I say, much more potential for variation than Slightly Different Stormtroopers or Faceless Robotic Uniformity: The Army.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/29/2018 at 7:53 AM, ninclouse2000 said:

No scum faction please.  It helped ruin x-wing.

It wasn’t the scum that did that. It was poor game design of several pieces. Scum merely happened to have two of them (mindlink and JM5K). What’s interesting is that mindlink fell out of favor well before it was nerfed because the rebels got scarier weaponry in the next wave, so even arguing mindlink itself is debatable.

Honestly, I joined Legion saying “no scum please - I love my xwing scum but don’t need them here”. After playing Legion a few times, and after watching Solo, I feel like it’s a solid idea. Maybe make the scum a single faction, but limit commanders and operatives to specific sub-factions (ie you’re building a Crimson Dawn list, or a Hutt one, etc). The foot soldiers can largely be similar but the named folks have differing flavors 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the arguments against Scum but from a variation, gameplay and “fun” perspective, bringing them in makes more sense than excluding them.

and, frankly, any gang that can’t muster up 50-ish goons for a fight with either an invading imperial force or Rebel mosquitoes isn’t really a gang - the Hutts, Black Sun, Crimson Dawn and Co could absolutely do that.

Edited by DangerShine Designs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The  reason I think that scum faction could work is because this is an objective based game.  Rushing in to grab some supplies that were left, or intercept some transmissions in order to sell the intel to the highest bidder.  Get in and out before the Empire knows they are there or before the rebels can get it first. I hope to see CiS and Republic first, but I could get on board a scum faction

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, azavander said:

The  reason I think that scum faction could work is because this is an objective based game.  Rushing in to grab some supplies that were left, or intercept some transmissions in order to sell the intel to the highest bidder.  Get in and out before the Empire knows they are there or before the rebels can get it first. I hope to see CiS and Republic first, but I could get on board a scum faction

spot on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am the biggest Clone Wars fan you'll find, but...

I gotta say after Solo I'd be totes down with some Scum faction being released first.

I wonder if they could do a thing so that Scum could be used as a standalone faction, or as add ons to any other faction - with some kinda list restriction of course.

Would really work well with a mercenary feel, and could be a way to introduce a third faction more incrementally than having to drop a commander, a troop, a support, and a heavy all at once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

I wonder if they could do a thing so that Scum could be used as a standalone faction, or as add ons to any other faction - with some kinda list restriction of course.

Would really work well with a mercenary feel, and could be a way to introduce a third faction more incrementally than having to drop a commander, a troop, a support, and a heavy all at once.

Runewars TMG has a mechanic where certain heroes allow you to add an out-of-faction unit to your army.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/27/2018 at 6:22 PM, Alpha17 said:

NO SCUM PLEASE!!!

Scum works, to a point, in X-Wing, but it should stay out of Legion just like it has Armada.  None of the Scum factions were ever serious contenders in the GCW, most certainly not in terms of force-on-force ground combat.  

If a new faction is added, it should be from the Clone Wars, or ****, I'd take even the Vong well before Scum. 

Both Black Sun and the Zann Consortium would be interesting options there. The Hutt's used to be known for having their own fleets...ones that are still semi-involved in Disney stuff already since the Hutts had the fleets and forces to make the CIS and Republic both think twice about messing with them during the Clone Wars.

I'm kind of hammering out rules for a take on a non-Scum, limited faction that would also be rather good for also being a "wild" faction to drop onto the table and have go after everyone...yes, I loved the concept of the Rak'ghoul plague and the events tied to it from TOR...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/30/2018 at 6:58 AM, ScummyRebel said:

It wasn’t the scum that did that. It was poor game design of several pieces. Scum merely happened to have two of them (mindlink and JM5K). What’s interesting is that mindlink fell out of favor well before it was nerfed because the rebels got scarier weaponry in the next wave, so even arguing mindlink itself is debatable.

Honestly, I joined Legion saying “no scum please - I love my xwing scum but don’t need them here”. After playing Legion a few times, and after watching Solo, I feel like it’s a solid idea. Maybe make the scum a single faction, but limit commanders and operatives to specific sub-factions (ie you’re building a Crimson Dawn list, or a Hutt one, etc). The foot soldiers can largely be similar but the named folks have differing flavors 

Exactly what I would hope for if scum came to Legion.

I think the biggest reason I wouldn't want scum is just so there isnt this weird hodgepodge faction with units being together that doesnt make any sense. If they did subfactions I'd be 100% on board.

There can be generic soldiers and vehicles but the commanders, operatives, and maybe even some special forces could only be in a certain subfaction. That way you dont have two commanders or gangs/organizations that wouldn't work together in the SW narrative and each commander could offer different bonuses to the generics. 

I would love to see a Mandalorian subfaction. Having generics would fit the narrative, Mandos are more elite soldiers and not cannon fodder so they would either hire or oppress people into being their conscripts for grunt work. While having their own vehicles, its easy to believe they'd also steal those too. Then special forces could be "Mandalorian warriors" with Boba having an alt unit card with command cards making him a commander, or keep him an operative and pull a character from the EU as the main commander.

Lots of cool potential if done right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without scum this game becomes mindlessly boring. Stormtroopers shoot either stormtroopers or rebel troopers with everyone havimg similar weapons.

Warhammer despite all of its faults at least captured the imagimation and some creativity by having several very different armies to play. So far, Legion has several units that are too similar to give a different playing experience

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

Without scum this game becomes mindlessly boring. Stormtroopers shoot either stormtroopers or rebel troopers with everyone havimg similar weapons.

Warhammer despite all of its faults at least captured the imagimation and some creativity by having several very different armies to play. So far, Legion has several units that are too similar to give a different playing experience

Part of my current issue with having a scum or other armies mixed into it is that the current point in the game there is already a lack of diversity due to it being a very young game. Perhaps next year would be a better time to start when there becomes a decent amount of options for the Imperials and Rebels already in play.

There is also a lot of room for other minor factions that could play either on their own or as part of one or both current armies.

One example that could be fun would be a CorSec force, having them be a relatively small selection that anyone could mix into their army in small numbers would be an interesting take on things, further if there's enough, well, some people might go for a whole force because they want to do so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Shadows of the Future said:

Part of my current issue with having a scum or other armies mixed into it is that the current point in the game there is already a lack of diversity due to it being a very young game. Perhaps next year would be a better time to start when there becomes a decent amount of options for the Imperials and Rebels already in play.

Agreed. I'd like to see scum at some point, but I'd rather it be after Empire and Rebels have been fleshed out a bit more. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Shadows of the Future said:

One example that could be fun would be a CorSec force, having them be a relatively small selection that anyone could mix into their army in small numbers would be an interesting take on things, further if there's enough, well, some people might go for a whole force because they want to do so...

I agree, Id like to see them dabble in content like CorSec or other smaller stuff we've seen, such as Enfys Nest's little band or Saw's partisans. It could bring about "Allies" expansions, where you can only take a much more limited amount if using for either Rebels or Empire- but if ran as a "fringe" faction, you could add more. These "allies" could be dual faction as a way to start building up units for a fringe faction while still playing the normal two factions, then once there is enough to start building lists with, they could release the first fringe-only commander to officiate the faction and start releasing more things.

If they do a fringe faction, at the very least I hope to see a multi unit "starter" set with possible conversion cards for any released unit that could be dual faction like they did with X-Wing.

Edited by Jman444

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, that's how I'd structure the entire Scum faction TBH.

Put out a handful of generic units like Gamorreans(very resilient, strong melee with weak or nonexistent shooting, really really cowardly?), Thugs(couple of humans, some Weequay, Nikto etc, basically a mini collection of the mooks you see in Jabba's Palace), an armed Bantha-II Cargo Skiff etc, which are only for the Scum faction, and then put in loads of various small bands of Commanders, Operatives, and Special Forces for all the various minifactions, many with the ability to be used by Rebels and/or Imperials, and with restrictions on which ones can be used together.

So you could take, say, Enfys Nest as a Commander with the biker gang and some Thugs riding on Skiffs and play them as a Scum army on their own, or you could take an Operative version of Enfys Nest as a Rebel selection, but you couldn't run Crimson Dawn units as part of the Scum army and Imperials couldn't use the Operative. You could have Mandalorians who certain Operatives could unlock for other factions as well, and have their Scum Commanders determine which other Scum they can align with - taking Fenn Rau or Sabine Wren would let you grab a unit for Rebels, while Boba Fett might give Imperials access to "Deathwatch Remnant" types.

There's a way to do it that benefits everybody, but it should probably wait until the beginning of next year to start mixing them in to the release schedule if they choose to do them - maybe start off focusing on Merc/Rebel-aligned units to start with to keep the Rebels on a level with the Empire given the latter have a lot more canon units.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think between Jabba's Palace, Mos Eisley Cantina, Crimson Dawn, Enfys Nest, Rebels cartoon etc there are way more options and para-military units in the galaxy then the merry band of rebels and the Imperial Regime put together.  I wondered if they were waiting to establish the 2 factions first like they did in Xwing. If they make them fit in both factions as hired help and also as a separate faction i don't care, I just feel after playing half a dozen games that this can never go to the next level unless they release more factions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm actually okay with scum factions - with the caveat that they are self contained and thematic.  

As much as I want the First Order and CIS armies, I can't help but think that the Nightsisters would make a great army - especially if you could dip into the Legends just to give them a Rancor as a heavy unit.   General wise we have Mother Talzin, maybe Old Daka.   Ventress can be an operative.  They have melee units, ranged with Energy Bows, heck, even reanimated fallen warriors.   Plus add in the Nightbrother clan to boot.  

A catch all faction wouldn't work, but individual armies.. that would be fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Jman444 said:

I agree, Id like to see them dabble in content like CorSec or other smaller stuff we've seen, such as Enfys Nest's little band or Saw's partisans. It could bring about "Allies" expansions, where you can only take a much more limited amount if using for either Rebels or Empire- but if ran as a "fringe" faction, you could add more. These "allies" could be dual faction as a way to start building up units for a fringe faction while still playing the normal two factions, then once there is enough to start building lists with, they could release the first fringe-only commander to officiate the faction and start releasing more things.

If they do a fringe faction, at the very least I hope to see a multi unit "starter" set with possible conversion cards for any released unit that could be dual faction like they did with X-Wing.

Using CorSec as an example, perhaps have a CorSec faction key word along with the fringe faction. Some characters may have a dual faction where the second faction is more of limiting how you can use them with other factions.

For instance, Corran Horn. He'd be Fringe/Rebel with the CorSec keyword.

You might also have some commander units designated that if they aren't with a fringe faction, they cannot be the only commander...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do want to see scum added (mostly because I want to field Weequay pirates commanded by Hondo Ohnaka), but I'm not a HUGE fan of the ability to mix faction units, because I feel that can lead to watering down the "uniqueness" of each faction. 

Let's say for instance Mandalorian jump troops are added to Legion as a "mercenary" unit.  Now, let's assume they have some version on Luke's Jump ability, combined with the close range firepower of Fleet troopers. If there is no other real competition for fast moving, terrain ignoring troopers which hit hard in close range then suddenly many Rebel and Empire lists have some number of Mandalorian jump troopers in the list (if that is deemed a useful type of troop).

Maybe it's just me, but sharing units amongst armies can lead to less of a feel of "Empire" or "Rebel" and more of "these are the best released units, and it's nominally an Rebel list because only Rebels can field an AT-RTs, but most of the units are mercenaries." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I do want to see scum added (mostly because I want to field Weequay pirates commanded by Hondo Ohnaka), but I'm not a HUGE fan of the ability to mix faction units, because I feel that can lead to watering down the "uniqueness" of each faction. 

Let's say for instance Mandalorian jump troops are added to Legion as a "mercenary" unit.  Now, let's assume they have some version on Luke's Jump ability, combined with the close range firepower of Fleet troopers. If there is no other real competition for fast moving, terrain ignoring troopers which hit hard in close range then suddenly many Rebel and Empire lists have some number of Mandalorian jump troopers in the list (if that is deemed a useful type of troop).

Maybe it's just me, but sharing units amongst armies can lead to less of a feel of "Empire" or "Rebel" and more of "these are the best released units, and it's nominally an Rebel list because only Rebels can field an AT-RTs, but most of the units are mercenaries." 

The easy way to prevent the list from only being nominally factional would be to have limits tied into it. Say that unless specifically noted (Some could be Fringe/Rebel or Fringe/Imperial type things), they cannot be from opposed factions and you have specific slots that must be filled with that faction. So if you want to have CorSec in your force, you need to have a CorSec commander (Or, in some cases, it could be an Operative). That opens a limited number of slots from your force organization option as being useable with that force.

For truly mercenary units, having them be limited by cost and/or making them limited in number of them usable in a force or even unique in a faction force...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I do want to see scum added (mostly because I want to field Weequay pirates commanded by Hondo Ohnaka), but I'm not a HUGE fan of the ability to mix faction units, because I feel that can lead to watering down the "uniqueness" of each faction. 

Let's say for instance Mandalorian jump troops are added to Legion as a "mercenary" unit.  Now, let's assume they have some version on Luke's Jump ability, combined with the close range firepower of Fleet troopers. If there is no other real competition for fast moving, terrain ignoring troopers which hit hard in close range then suddenly many Rebel and Empire lists have some number of Mandalorian jump troopers in the list (if that is deemed a useful type of troop).

Maybe it's just me, but sharing units amongst armies can lead to less of a feel of "Empire" or "Rebel" and more of "these are the best released units, and it's nominally an Rebel list because only Rebels can field an AT-RTs, but most of the units are mercenaries." 

This.

Not a Star Wars historian.  Just a fan and 2 months into gaming.  This seems like a polarizing discussion based on whatever happened in X-Wing, which I have never played, and logic.  Or, maybe, thematically accurate instead of the word logic.  It appears people are all-in or out and not many in the middle.  I see/appreciate both sides.  

If it were done in a way that it was in the spirit of all digital content/books and exhausted of any chance of tilting the intent/design of the game, why not?  

Where it goes wrong is ... somehow ... it is done and, as was hinted at by @Caimheul1313, you end up playing a game of nothing near the spirit of Star Wars.  Or a unit or two are just low cost/ridiculous ROI in a game.   

You arrive at here is a master list that by the rules I can build and, well, has zero applicable ties into anything related to anything in the Star Wars universe ... but ... allowable by the rules ... and ... well, I am that guy so ... deal with it

Now that I have played a few games I respect the concept of immersion.  I like that and would like to keep it.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not adverse to Scum as a faction.

 

I **AM** adverse to Boba Fett as a leader/Commander, as really, every time he’s worked with a group in his youth, things have gone terrible and it seems to set him out as lone-is-good.  He’s no doubt tired of being responsible for people ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I was going to make a new topic after seeing Solo last night, but it looks like this one exists and it makes more sense to post here. 

SOLO SPOILERS TO FOLLOW

 

I have long said here on the forums that scum working together made no sense at all, as they would be rivals to each other more than allies. What I completely forgot was the entire Maul Clone War plot, where he rallies the criminal factions and makes an uneasy alliance. Obviously at the time of Solo, this is still in effect to a significant extent. 

So, I stand corrected. I now think that a Scum faction could work. However, I'd prefer them not called "Scum and Villainy" and instead be called "Shadow Collective" which is what the loose alliance between Pyke Syndicate, Hutt Cartel, Black Sun, and Death Watch are known as. Obviously we learn in Solo that Crimson Dawn seems to be a part of this. 

What makes me a little sad / uneasy is that in my mind, Bounty Hunters would fit into this group as well, regardless of what they're called. With Boba Fett announced for the Empire, I wonder if that will be altered later (perhaps Bounty Hunter characters will ultimately have cards released to be played with multiple factions) or if Boba simply won't be able to work with the seedy underworld. 

I still would rather the two Clone Wars factions, but after Solo, I feel significantly better about a "Scum" faction being released at some point.

 

Edited by Copes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...