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Commander Kaine

What IS "Rebel Bias"?

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The numbers of regionals show the following:

Rebels advanced with 31% from swiss to the cut, Imps with just 27%. But Quickdraw was at 32.4%, and the 27% include all the Quickdraws... So there was this massive difference between Quickdraw and everything else.

That alone already tells us that not flying her was simply the wrong choice.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The numbers of regionals show the following:

Rebels advanced with 31% from swiss to the cut, Imps with just 27%. But Quickdraw was at 32.4%, and the 27% include all the Quickdraws... So there was this massive difference between Quickdraw and everything else.

That alone already tells us that not flying her was simply the wrong choice.

Agreed. I don't think anyone is suggesting quickdraw isn't one of the best, if not the best, imperial-faction-specific card. But the thing is, is she overpowered or the others underpowered.

If you look at rebels and want a medium-heavy ship, Nym and Miranda compete for your attention. Norra Wexley is okay but not great. If you want a fighter ace, Poe is the default, but Flight Assist and the Saw's stuff means 'normal' T-65s (especially Flight Assist Wedge and Luke) can be nearly as good for detectably less points.

If you take a.n.other netlist and say 'but I don't want to fly quickdraw', it's hard to see who's competing for the slot. Vader, maybe? but he's about the same price for a ship which is a bit more fragile and doesn't get free attacks. Quickdraw's upgrades (AO/FCS) make up for Vader's free action.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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Does it matter? Rebel Bias or no Rebel Bias? Imo there might be a little bias but that's nothing to complain about plus i'm 99% sure the devs know that making a fair game is a lot more important and appealing to its customers then the rebels winning. (PS. SCUM WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER IN MY EYES ;)

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43 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Agreed. I don't think anyone is suggesting quickdraw isn't one of the best, if not the best, imperial-faction-specific card. But the thing is, is she overpowered or the others underpowered.

Is Nym overpowered on his own? ScumNym suggests otherwise.

Would we all scream for a QD nerf if there was another wingman for her who‘s on the same level?

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I don't think you can look at V1 as a good example of Rebel Bias.  For starters, I think that Rebels have more unique pilots and crew, to reflect their motley crew nature.  With the Power Creep of V1, you just can't avoid the broken.  So....the issues with Rebels being powerful in V1 has more to do with power creep than designers purposefully making Rebels more powerful.   With them being able to recreate everything from the ground up at this point they can build in balance.  Also, if something does go wrong in the future, they just adjust it via the app.   

So....with that said, I think that Rebels will have unique people that are powerful.  That's their Schtick.  That's their Faction quality.  I think a lot of people aren't looking at Imperials in the right way.  They see the super powerful options for Rebels, but they either aren't seeing all the powerful stuff in Imperials or aren't pulling in all the components that make Imperials.  I see Imperials as having numerous decent ships and ways to buff them all with a few elites thrown in that are good.

Here's an example, there is a thread about Which ships can token stack?  If you look at the list, most of them are Imperial.  No one talks about that.   

Another is Generics with Force Abilities.  That's only an Imperial thing with the Inquisitors. 

I look at Admiral Sloan and I see someone that buffs a lot of generics, which is supposed to be one of the identifying factors of Imperials.  I mean, you put that in a list with a good amount of swarms and that's crazy good!  Especially if you consider that most Rebel lists will have just a few, expensive unique ships.  Remember that having a few powerful ships for Rebels can be a weakness if you are able to target them with special stuff (abilities, Ion, Stress, etc).   Combine all the other boosting stuff we know and will surely see more of and I think Imperials will do really well with swarms or mini swarms.  

Has anyone seen the Tie Defender?  It looks crazy good!   It looks powerful.  Oh, not as super powerful as some of the highest named YT pilots, but.....a lot cheaper....and generics will be good.  

I think swarms or mini swarms will be the way to go with Imperials.  I think you can probably do 3 Aces, but that probably won't be the optimal build for Imperials.  I could be wrong, but I think having a number of ships with different tools and ways to help them is the way to go.

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8 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Well, its not there for you to prove wrong. 

 

Also, this comment describes most of the threads here... And if anything, 2.0 showed us that FFG listens to at least some criticism. And if an internet troll can make you dislike X-Wing, maybe you didn't like it enough. 

2.0 did not show us that at all. Correlation is not causation.

 

I like X-Wing just fine. I also know hobbies die when new people encounter a wall of irrational screeching in every public forum.

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4 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

2.0 did not show us that at all. Correlation is not causation.

If you listen to what they wanted to bring back to X-wing....then it is the same issues that people have been complaining about for years.  I dunno.  I think that means they get it.  

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8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

If you listen to what they wanted to bring back to X-wing....then it is the same issues that people have been complaining about for years.  I dunno.  I think that means they get it.  

Getting it and getting it from indefensible posts aren’t the same thing. I feed my kids every morning, but it’s not because they remind me that they’re hungry.

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8 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

That, or they are actual idiots. 

Really, dude? 

I get it that you don't like some design stuff.

But now you're just a smarter guy and a better game designer then everyone else. 

Good for you! 

Go make a game. 

I'd love to play it some day. Really.

Maybe you're right about the company. And maybe you aren't.

But if you really prefer to feel like ALLL the evidence is pointing to the good gents at ffg NOT caring about making a good game, then I will politely dismiss myself from this topic.

Good day, you guys. 

:)

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This thread is so bad. Imho the premise is completely wrong. 

I know in that huge wall of text OP tries to explain that it has nothing to do with how dominant which faction was during the game’s lifespan.

But it IS about that i am afraid, and there is just the last time that Rebels have been dominating the meta a bit.

We had prolonged timespans that Empire and/or Scum were the best faction hands down, and therefore you can’t say there is any Rebel Bias, not conscious, nor subconscious.

Mistakes were made in game design, for and against all factions. That’s about it.

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13 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Do you ever feel when you are flipping through imperial cards that these are ALMOST good? They just have a bit too many restrictions. If you wanna have fun, go and read imperial only upgrades and abilities, and compare them with similar abilities from others. 2.0 Wedge vs Soontir is a very good example of this, and a reason why I am worried about 2.0.

Luke Gunner is also suspect. 

If you have above average perception abilities, you might notice how both Wedge and Luke are rebel characters. 

 

You can add other informations we have so far pointing in the same direction:

- Rebels are the only faction with 4 dice primary attack ships. And they have 2 of them.

- Dash was already close to OP in 1.0 and they buffed him.

- Rebels have the most unchanged or buffed ships. The 2 other factions, especially scums, took a major hit.

- With defense being less effective tanky ships will be at an advantage. Faction with the tankiest ships?

Sure they can play around with point cost and upgrade availability in the app but when the core looks so strong.... like they say: "bad feeling about this".

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7 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Dash was already close to OP in 1.0 and they buffed him. 

Dash loses any kind of PTL effect and has to use up his Elite slot in order to make his barrel roll white. His already not too hot durability that was off-set by either mobility (no longer a thing) or huge defense buffs like GlitterMeasures will matter a lot more now. His weapon has been weakened since it now is arcbound and no longer denies range boni. Yes, the blind spot isn't there anymore, but you are still much better against him at close ranges and the arcs create much larger safe areas. He goes up the PS ladder, but we'll have to see how much that is even worth in the new meta. I'd consider Dash 'mildly dampened' rather than buffed. Oh and of course point cost are the huge unknown at the moment that can make any balance discussion irrelevant once we know them.

 

On the topic of this thread again: I don't see much rebel bias, but I sure see lots of confirmation bias...

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On 5/24/2018 at 11:11 AM, Admiral Deathrain said:

Dash loses any kind of PTL effect and has to use up his Elite slot in order to make his barrel roll white. His already not too hot durability that was off-set by either mobility (no longer a thing) or huge defense buffs like GlitterMeasures will matter a lot more now. His weapon has been weakened since it now is arcbound and no longer denies range boni. Yes, the blind spot isn't there anymore, but you are still much better against him at close ranges and the arcs create much larger safe areas. He goes up the PS ladder, but we'll have to see how much that is even worth in the new meta. I'd consider Dash 'mildly dampened' rather than buffed. Oh and of course point cost are the huge unknown at the moment that can make any balance discussion irrelevant once we know them.

 

On the topic of this thread again: I don't see much rebel bias, but I sure see lots of confirmation bias...

We are talking about 2.0 here. Compared to almost everything else we've seen so far he definitely got a huge boost.

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On 5/24/2018 at 10:53 AM, Thormind said:

You can add other informations we have so far pointing in the same direction:

- Rebels are the only faction with 4 dice primary attack ships. And they have 2 of them.

- Dash was already close to OP in 1.0 and they buffed him.

- Rebels have the most unchanged or buffed ships. The 2 other factions, especially scums, took a major hit.

- With defense being less effective tanky ships will be at an advantage. Faction with the tankiest ships?

Sure they can play around with point cost and upgrade availability in the app but when the core looks so strong.... like they say: "bad feeling about this".

I don't see any faction taking a huge hit in viability. I see that Scum had some of their strongest dials receive some badly needed nerfs (Scum had several of the best dials in the game), and I also see several of their ships getting much needed buffs. Even if you think the Jumpmaster is DOA in 2.0 (which is a huge conclusion  being prematurely leaped to considering it still has multishot I6 pilot) you must admit that the faction also gained a massive buff in the Firespray as well as exclusive access to both those newly improved Firesprays and the Scurrg, which is an extremely potent ship in its own right and will likely remain so in 2e.

Every faction saw significant alterations. We don't have a very good idea of how all the changes are going to sort themselves out in a possible meta. We have very little idea of what anything is going to cost. At the very least we need to see how 2.0 plays out after release before we talk about how strong individual ships are, much less entire factions.

I do wonder about the 4 dice primaries, but not enough to do more than just wonder about them until we can actually see all these ships interact with one another.

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Well, IMO, there is a bias in your reasonning @Commander Kaine

Are you sure the amount of rebel miniature sold is bigger than other faction, I mean significatively. In fact I don't have the stat so I can't discuss it.

I assume that rebels are suposed to be "easier" more than "better". Ok it look like the same.

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58 minutes ago, player2422845 said:

Well, IMO, there is a bias in your reasonning @Commander Kaine

Are you sure the amount of rebel miniature sold is bigger than other faction, I mean significatively. In fact I don't have the stat so I can't discuss it.

I assume that rebels are suposed to be "easier" more than "better". Ok it look like the same.

I assure you, 100%, there is bias in my reasoning :D 

 

But, that doesn't mean my reasoning is necessarily flawed. 

 

And Easier IS better. Being easy allows for more mistakes. This means that with equally skilled players, if they make the same number of mistakes, the one with an easier list will win. 

In a balanced game, this is countered by the harder things being more effective at what they do. 

 

Comparing 2 hypothetical units, if two ships are identical in every aspect, but one has a Turret (= easier), the other should have an increased offensive capability in its arc. 

This is... sort of the case with 2nd edition. They are beginning to get it. 

 

But it doesn't really answer things like Soontir and Wedge, and how their abilities interact with their firing arcs. Pricing could solve the issue, but I am skeptical about their ability to accurately judge these things. 

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On 5/23/2018 at 11:37 PM, Commander Kaine said:

giphy-downsized-medium.gif

If 5 X-Wings are possible, I DEMAND 6 interceptors. At least. 

6 Interceptors would be awesome 😛

Maybe they ARE planning to put that Imperial fluff in and make ALL ships cheaper and more swarm-able.

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To put it in perspective, Dash lost:

Double-actions

Synergies between PTL and Kyle/Kanan

Two arcs worth of firing

Boost

Dash gained:

A 3 die attack at range 1.

Somehow this is a massive buff and imperials will never work.

Imperial fanboys are some of the worst.

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mostly I think Rebels just have had some of the most important pillars of the game as part of their core philosophy: offense and survivability.  The maneuverability and cost efficiency of Imperial ships has been strong at times but also wavered a bit when the lines started to blur and other factions got a lot more maneuverability options and ways to counter the defensive mechanisms of otherwise fragile ships.  Having one of the most popular and skilled pilots in canon who also drives a flying tank with 360 degree turrets certainly doesn't hurt either.

it would not shock me if Rebels saw somewhat more consistent results even in 2.0, as their strengths are just a bit easier to take advantage of than imperial maneuvers or perhaps scum gimmicks.

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3 hours ago, Effenhoog said:

mostly I think Rebels just have had some of the most important pillars of the game as part of their core philosophy: offense and survivability.  The maneuverability and cost efficiency of Imperial ships has been strong at times but also wavered a bit when the lines started to blur and other factions got a lot more maneuverability options and ways to counter the defensive mechanisms of otherwise fragile ships.  Having one of the most popular and skilled pilots in canon who also drives a flying tank with 360 degree turrets certainly doesn't hurt either.

it would not shock me if Rebels saw somewhat more consistent results even in 2.0, as their strengths are just a bit easier to take advantage of than imperial maneuvers or perhaps scum gimmicks.

I think it can be summed up as "anything you can do I can do better", regarding imperials and the other factions. At least, it often felt that way.

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5 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

I think it can be summed up as "anything you can do I can do better", regarding imperials and the other factions. At least, it often felt that way.

I wouldn't say that is the case, even for me that's a bit too much. 

 

However, anything the Empire can do, the rebels can do good enough, and there are many things the Rebels can do, that the Empire can't. 

This got better with 2.0, but it is still not quite there yet. I still see no in universe reason for locking the Empire out of shield regeneration. All shields in SW are capable of regenerating. Some TIE-s have shields. 

Even if they had access to regen, it would be more limited by the virtue of not having shields in the first place. The Interceptor, the Striker, the Bomber and the basic TIE couldn't regen shields at all, and even the ships WITH shields have less of them. 

 

Consider this. It was stated that the Interceptor is the most mobile ship, and the only one with the full combination of boost + barrel roll in any combination. 

The A-Wing can do something quite similar, but a bit weaker. It can only slap boost on the end of any action instead of both boost and broll, but it is still very similar. 

 

Now, where is the imperial regeneration that is as powerful to rebel regen, as rebel arc-dodging to imperial one? I wouldn't mind if it came in a different slot, or it was less efficient, or had further limitations... I just want them to either: 

a, Compensate for these discrepancies

b, Remove imperial faction mechanics from other factions. Make it impossible to field 8 ships. Make arc dodgers much worse in other factions. 

 

Now, before you say: But the A-Wing is a really fast ship, and it deserves to fly very similarly to the Interceptor... Fair enough. But then the Defender should be able to regen shields, don't you think? 

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24 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

I wouldn't say that is the case, even for me that's a bit too much. 

 

However, anything the Empire can do, the rebels can do good enough, and there are many things the Rebels can do, that the Empire can't. 

This got better with 2.0, but it is still not quite there yet. I still see no in universe reason for locking the Empire out of shield regeneration. All shields in SW are capable of regenerating. Some TIE-s have shields. 

Even if they had access to regen, it would be more limited by the virtue of not having shields in the first place. The Interceptor, the Striker, the Bomber and the basic TIE couldn't regen shields at all, and even the ships WITH shields have less of them. 

 

Consider this. It was stated that the Interceptor is the most mobile ship, and the only one with the full combination of boost + barrel roll in any combination. 

The A-Wing can do something quite similar, but a bit weaker. It can only slap boost on the end of any action instead of both boost and broll, but it is still very similar. 

 

Now, where is the imperial regeneration that is as powerful to rebel regen, as rebel arc-dodging to imperial one? I wouldn't mind if it came in a different slot, or it was less efficient, or had further limitations... I just want them to either: 

a, Compensate for these discrepancies

b, Remove imperial faction mechanics from other factions. Make it impossible to field 8 ships. Make arc dodgers much worse in other factions. 

 

Now, before you say: But the A-Wing is a really fast ship, and it deserves to fly very similarly to the Interceptor... Fair enough. But then the Defender should be able to regen shields, don't you think? 

No, it should not. Regen has always been part of the Rebel's identity. You literally just made a point about Imperial faction identity, why can't Rebels have theirs? I think that a fast arc-dodger already exists in every faction, and that swarms are the new Imperial faction identity. Not all factions should share the same mechanics in the same capacity. Could the imperials get a crew for regen, or a pilot for the Punisher? Sure! But it should not be completely equal to what the Rebels have, and the Rebels should not ever be able to swarm as well as the Imperials can. Arc-Dodgers are now a feature of all 3 factions, with the A-Wing, TIE/In, and Fang Fighter all capable of arc-dodging.

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