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One of the things i liked most in the multiplayer Game of Thrones LCG were the titles.

Every round the players had to choose a title like "Hand of the King", "Master of Coins" and etc. Each of these titles had an cool ability, like buying more cards and getting more gold, but most important, they had the "Rivals" and "Supports" system.

The Rivals and Supports make each round really dinamic, forbiding attacks against some players and giving rewards when attacking others.

I think that Titles would really fit L5R multiplayer. In L5R lore the clans compete for the various imperial titles (Imperial Advisor, Emerald Champion, etc). And mechanically the Titles prevent that a single player get predate too much by the other players, what, in the end, harms the fun for everyone.

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Maybe once they end play testing the MP rules, they’ll release some specific cards for multiplayer, and maybe some card similar to titles amongst them

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I don't remember having titles in the CCG, but I didn't play any multiplayer match back then.

I guess they could ressurrect the old winds, right hand of the Emperor, left hand, underhand and so.

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Posted (edited)

I actually 100% am behind this, and they're pretty easy to impliment - the mechanics translate pretty easily, just use different names like "Shogun" or "Emerald Champion". I actually did this a while back while trying to jank some multiplayer rules together - when I get home I'll post them here. Might be a few hours though. I lied, I found them on my laptop; forgive my awful writing (And they may need to be tweaked to fit into the new L5R Multiplayer rules):

 

Titles are distributed during each Dynasty Phase, just before the action window opens (Effectively
1.3.1), following the distribution rules found in the AGoT LCG rulebook. (Shuffle face down, remove
one randomly. In a three-player game, two titles are removed at random; in a six-player game
no titles are removed. Then, in Player order, each person secretly selects one available title.
after all players have selected, all titles are revealed. Player Order for title selection
is clockwise, starting with the player with the Imperial Favor, or the first player marker if
nobody has the Imperial favor.) Titles are returned during each
regroup phase, just after rings are returned. (Effectively 5.4.1) 


Title abilities:

Supports - If a player’s title supports another title, that player
	cannot declare conflicts against the player holding
	the title that he or she supports.

Rivals - If you win a conflict against the player holding the title you rival,
	you may gain 1 fate. (Limit once per round.)


===================

Imperial Advisor
	Supports: None
	Supported by: None
	Rivals: None
	This Title adds +1 glory to your side during each glory count.
	INTERRUPT: When another player declares a conflict, you may select a different player.
	That player now becomes the target of the conflict. (The attacking player may choose which
	of the new defending player's province to attack, but may not change conflict type, 
	ring type, or declared attackers.)

Shogun
	Supports: Emerald Champion
	Supported by: Imperial Chancellor
	Rivals: Imperial Treasurer, Jade Champion
	You may declare a second MIL conflict this round against
	a different opponent.
	Other players may not gain MIL from the Imperial Favor
	this round in conflicts with you. 

Imperial Treasurer
	Supports: Jade Champion
	Supported by: Emerald Champion
	Rivals: Shogun, Imperial Chancellor
	When you reveal this Title, gain 1 fate and
	place 1 fate onto a character you control that has no fate.

Emerald Champion
	Supports: Imperial Treasurer
	Supported by: Shogun
	Rivals: Imperial Chancellor, Jade Champion
	When you reveal this Title, draw 1 card.

Jade Champion
	Supports: Imperial Chancellor
	Supported by: Imperial Treasurer	
	Rivals: Emerald Champion, Shogun
	When you reveal this Title, claim the Imperial Favor.
	When you declare a conflict against your rival, you may 
	gain an additional honor. 
	
Imperial Chancellor
	Supports: Shogun
	Supported by: Jade Champion
	Rivals: Emerald Champion, Imperial Treasurer
	You may declare a second POL conflict this round against
	a different opponent.
	Other players may not gain POL from the Imperial Favor
	this round in conflicts with you.
Edited by RavenwolfXIII

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1 hour ago, RavenwolfXIII said:

I actually 100% am behind this, and they're pretty easy to impliment - the mechanics translate pretty easily, just use different names like "Shogun" or "Emerald Champion". I actually did this a while back while trying to jank some multiplayer rules together - when I get home I'll post them here. Might be a few hours though. I lied, I found them on my laptop; forgive my awful writing (And they may need to be tweaked to fit into the new L5R Multiplayer rules):

 

I really liked what you did. I would love if they did something similar to that.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, RenanBarcellos said:

I really liked what you did. I would love if they did something similar to that.

Well.... If we harass them enough about it, maybe they will :P Test it out with your friends and let me know how it goes!

I definitely think some of the titles need a bit of balance tweaking though.

Edited by RavenwolfXIII

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On 5/24/2018 at 11:23 AM, Barbacuo said:

I don't remember having titles in the CCG, but I didn't play any multiplayer match back then.

I guess they could ressurrect the old winds, right hand of the Emperor, left hand, underhand and so.

I was actually thinking this same thing. I've been designing the hands as Strongholds for multiplayer draft.

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On 5/24/2018 at 5:23 PM, Barbacuo said:

I don't remember having titles in the CCG, but I didn't play any multiplayer match back then.

Multiplayer AGoT appeared late in the CCG (in the Iron Throne block, the 2nd to last one), with the titles. The melee-specific rules didn't change when the game became a LCG (except that players could no longer be eliminated because there were no longer any Doomed cards).

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We played with these titles the other night, and It *REALLY* helps with stuff like kingmaker and ganging up on a weak player; Giving a player who's getting beaten down on a way to 'sue for peace' is really important to prevent runaway snowball steamrolls that are much, much more likely to happen in a multiplayer format, since you can get attacked multiple times before being able to respond with your own attacks.

Not tooting my own horn but I really like the title idea. (Ok, maybe tooting it a little bit, give me some slack)

I'm open to any sort of idea that solves those problems, however.

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I have an updated list of titles and rules, if anyone is still interested in me sharing them. Some have changed and there's a small tweak with how they're given out. They really do solve the problem where you can farm rings off down-and-out players.

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I think five Roles would be good, as wrangling more than 5 players is a bit of a challenge. I have put together a playtest set of rules that I sadly never got to try out, but here goes:

When you Pass during the Dynasty Phase, instead of gaining 1 Fate, you choose a Role. The Roles each have a Triggered Ability on them.

Right Hand of the Emperor: Reaction: When you claim a Military Ring - Gain 1 Fate. 
Left Hand of the Emperor: Reaction: When you claim a Political Ring - Gain 2 Honor.
Underhand of the Emperor: Interrupt: When you reveal an Honor bid - Add or subtract 1 from your bid, to a minimum of 0. (Unlimited)
Imperial Chancellor: Action: Choose a participating character during a Conflict - Move that character home. 
Emerald Champion: Interrupt: When a province is chosen as a target of a Conflict - Treat its text as blank, except for traits.

The Roles also have a Rivalry system. You have an Ally and a Rival. Right Hand's Ally is the Chancellor, but their Rival is the Left Hand. Left Hand's Ally is the Emerald Champion, but their Rival is the Underhand. The Underhand's Ally is the Right Hand, but their Rival is the Imperial Chancellor. The Chancellor's Ally is the Left Hand, but their Rival is the Emerald Champion. The Emerald Champion's Ally is the Underhand, but their Rival is the Right Hand.

When comparing Honor bids during the Draw Phase, you give Honor to your Ally based on your bid and theirs, then take Honor from your Rival based on your bid and theirs. Yeah, that's a little complicated in theory but once you see it in action, it works. It does mean there are scenarios where you gain and lose no Honor despite having different bids, but it limits you from gaining more than 4 Honor or losing more than 4 Honor on a bid.

When declaring a Conflict, if you declare a Conflict targeting your Ally, you lose 2 Honor. When winning a Conflict against your Rival, you gain 1 Honor (including defending).

Everyone has their own set of Elemental Rings. They gain Fate as normal, which usually leads to a general increase of +2 Fate production per Round, but I have not found this to be unbalancing. The Imperial Favor is a Glory Count by all players.

Honor Victories are actually slightly more common. Having your Stronghold broken or reaching 0 Honor eliminates you.

 

Thoughts?

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4 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

I think five Roles would be good, as wrangling more than 5 players is a bit of a challenge. I have put together a playtest set of rules that I sadly never got to try out, but here goes:

When you Pass during the Dynasty Phase, instead of gaining 1 Fate, you choose a Role. The Roles each have a Triggered Ability on them.

Right Hand of the Emperor: Reaction: When you claim a Military Ring - Gain 1 Fate. 
Left Hand of the Emperor: Reaction: When you claim a Political Ring - Gain 2 Honor.
Underhand of the Emperor: Interrupt: When you reveal an Honor bid - Add or subtract 1 from your bid, to a minimum of 0. (Unlimited)
Imperial Chancellor: Action: Choose a participating character during a Conflict - Move that character home. 
Emerald Champion: Interrupt: When a province is chosen as a target of a Conflict - Treat its text as blank, except for traits.

The Roles also have a Rivalry system. You have an Ally and a Rival. Right Hand's Ally is the Chancellor, but their Rival is the Left Hand. Left Hand's Ally is the Emerald Champion, but their Rival is the Underhand. The Underhand's Ally is the Right Hand, but their Rival is the Imperial Chancellor. The Chancellor's Ally is the Left Hand, but their Rival is the Emerald Champion. The Emerald Champion's Ally is the Underhand, but their Rival is the Right Hand.

When comparing Honor bids during the Draw Phase, you give Honor to your Ally based on your bid and theirs, then take Honor from your Rival based on your bid and theirs. Yeah, that's a little complicated in theory but once you see it in action, it works. It does mean there are scenarios where you gain and lose no Honor despite having different bids, but it limits you from gaining more than 4 Honor or losing more than 4 Honor on a bid.

When declaring a Conflict, if you declare a Conflict targeting your Ally, you lose 2 Honor. When winning a Conflict against your Rival, you gain 1 Honor (including defending).

Everyone has their own set of Elemental Rings. They gain Fate as normal, which usually leads to a general increase of +2 Fate production per Round, but I have not found this to be unbalancing. The Imperial Favor is a Glory Count by all players.

Honor Victories are actually slightly more common. Having your Stronghold broken or reaching 0 Honor eliminates you.

 

Thoughts?

There are 6 roles for a good reason, not just because of 6 players. In a 3 player game, you remove two at random - so players can't just choose the same roles every round - while still leaving 4 roles - enough to give every player a choice. If you had 5 roles, then the last player would be locked into his role; essentially the second player would dictate his own role AND dictate the title of the 3rd player -  which isn't ok. 

Most of the roles already have a rival/supporter built into them, so that's already there. I think losing 2 honor instead of being outright prevented from targeting them is a good idea though.

I'm a little bit hammered right now, but my group did replace two of the roles with more defense-oriented ones that I can post in the morning, to help prevent people ganging up on a single player.

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Yeah, there are more roles than players, so that:

  1. The first player doesn't have the full choice
  2. The last player still has a choice

That requires 2 more roles than the maximum number of players. This is why AGoT has 6 roles, despite being played with no more than 4 (it's theoretically possible to play with 5 or even 6, but no one ever does, it's so messy and long). If you have 5 roles for 3 players, you remove only 1 before the first player chooses theirs (btw, this is how 3 player table are now handled in AGoT: the redirection title is permanently removed - and support is ignored).

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One more reason is that second player does not know what role the first player has! He can ques by 50% propability because one card was removed, but he has no full knowledge and that is nice so you can not game the system of rivals and allies.

So more roles provide more variety, but Also increase the amounth of hidden information.

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Just now, Hannibal_pjv said:

One more reason is that second player does not know what role the first player has! He can ques by 50% propability because one card was removed, but he has no full knowledge and that is nice so you can not game the system of rivals and allies.

So more roles provide more variety, but Also increase the amounth of hidden information.

Actually, we find the roles being hidden as a big negative in L5R. Player's need to know what others have chosen in order to make their choice, as they need the support/rival rules to prevent being ganged up on, as L5R incentivises beating on the losing player. (Easier to farm rings off a defenseless player than work to steal them from players who arn't weakened.)

We play with roles revealed and it tends to work out a bit better, since you can plan out your choices. Since the person with the Imperial Favor chooses first, most likely, the currently "winning" player will be forced to choose and reveal their role first, allowing a severely crippled player to chose the role that say, prevents them from being attacked by them. 

It works in AGoT to keep them hidden, but not in L5R.

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In AGoT 1st edition, titles were chosen openly, starting with (as in 2nd edition) the first player. It worked, but I prefer AGoT 2nd edition's hidden choice. Also, I'm not sure the imperial favor is an accurate indicator of overall board position.

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Not to talk everyone out of the title proposal (because I like the idea my self), why not just play predator/prey like V:tES. You attack the player to your left, defend against the player on your right. 

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1 hour ago, HirumaShigure said:

Not to talk everyone out of the title proposal (because I like the idea my self), why not just play predator/prey like V:tES. You attack the player to your left, defend against the player on your right. 

That feels a bit to simple because it eliminates a large part of the bargaining and Treaty-making. The most common Treaties in our games have been ceasefire and non-interference deals. If your targets were so clear it would just end up being a slightly modified head-to-head. There is also little reason to help other players in their conflicts when you know one player is coming for you and you have one player to go after and there is no way to change that. Furthermore (and probably more importantly), it eliminates the strategy of Ring-taking because you cannot go after targets of opportunity to score fat ring provinces anymore.

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In Vampire there Are cards that affect that predator / prey system. And because predator get extra blood if his prey get eliminated there is tendency of helping the weak prey a Little bit.

it is working system but requires some support from the rules and card pool.

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6 hours ago, Hannibal_pjv said:

In Vampire there Are cards that affect that predator / prey system. And because predator get extra blood if his prey get eliminated there is tendency of helping the weak prey a Little bit.

it is working system but requires some support from the rules and card pool.

I really, really hope there's not a seperate card pool for multiplayer. There should not be extra product you have to buy just to play multiplayer.

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Well, Vampire was multiplayer from the befinning, but all cards in it Also worked in two players games! So no problem in that. The only thing that would not work in two player would be title cards. For that there has to be separate product and if there is separate product for that there could be some other cards that would suit better to multiplayer.

But idea to prey to the left, depend from right by HirunaShigure is a valid one, it just would work better with some card support, but all (most) those cards ofcourse should be useable Also in two player games. 

For example Eagles sight from vampire is a boost card in two player game, but if you pay more it allows player to partisipate in another player conflict. Similar could be done in L5R to make the card usefull in both environments.

 

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7 hours ago, Hannibal_pjv said:

Well, Vampire was multiplayer from the befinning, but all cards in it Also worked in two players games! So no problem in that. The only thing that would not work in two player would be title cards. For that there has to be separate product and if there is separate product for that there could be some other cards that would suit better to multiplayer.

But idea to prey to the left, depend from right by HirunaShigure is a valid one, it just would work better with some card support, but all (most) those cards ofcourse should be useable Also in two player games. 

For example Eagles sight from vampire is a boost card in two player game, but if you pay more it allows player to partisipate in another player conflict. Similar could be done in L5R to make the card usefull in both environments.

 

Even titles could work in two player games where you have a list of them that are applicable by number of players (so for example make your defaults Imperial Chancellor, Emerald Champion, Left Hand and Right Hand in a 2 player game.  first player selects one, then discard one of the remaining at random and player two selects from the remaining options.  Each gives a mechanical benefit that could make the mirror match more interesting (Chancellor counts as +1 Political as long as you have more glory, shogun for military, Left and right are send homes for example, or you could replicate the old favor mechanics of honor a character/send home/card draw/cancel or reduce a loss of honor).  As you add more players you you add additional titles (Imperial Treasurer. Underhand, etc.) that add additional effects.

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