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DXCrazytrain

Impatient FO main is impatient

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I'm very happy they separated both the OG and the Sequels now me and my friends can field our factions without being required to purchase Sequel stuff, it always irked me that Quickdraw was one of the best "imperial" pilots. I hate the new ships, they are just repaints or extremely lame, the only exception being the Tie Silencer, that is a slick design. Its going to be fun when they redo epic and I can do full on rebel vs imperial battles.

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3 hours ago, Sekac said:

So let me make sure i understand.

Your argument is there are 3 metrics we can look at 1) money made, 2) critic reviews, 3) user reviews. 

And then you provide a reason why we should doubt metric 1, and a reason to doubt metric 2, so therefore 3, by process is elimination, is the most valuable. 

That's not how it works. 

User reviews should be discarded first due to bias. If you want to disregard critics because they might be biased,  then you can't argue that the group that definitely is biased is somehow useful information. 

Your "I was around for all of them" argument illustrates this perfectly. You're comparing public reception of a movie released before the internet to one after-- and even more importantly, in a time when it is fashionable to trash anything and everything online.  

Your perceptions about how people received a movie 40 years ago and how they receive it show absolutely nothing except bias. 

And again, of course the original movies were received better. They're classics for a reason. Expecting the new ones to be classic as well is ridiculous. 

And none of that has anything to do with the new ones being popular, which they indisputably are. 





Who is saying anything about pre-internet and post-internet receptions?  Who is saying any new Star Wars movie will fail to be as classic as the OT and will therefore suffer?  You are trying to interject that narrative.  For pete's sake, just look at Rogue One and The Force Awakens: they were both received by audiences much better than TLJ (almost twice as positively, in fact).  Why wouldn't this "post internet" mentality of "it's cool to hate stuff" upon which you are blaming the poor ratings of TLJ on not have also similarly trashed Rogue One or TFA, both of which have an over 85% positive reception with audiences and both of which came out in this post-internet age?

I'm merely pointing to the actual data that exists in a cross comparison of nine Star Wars films released across a period of 40 years.  Despite not being "the classics," and existing in a post-internet fandom age, three Prequel Films, The Force Awakens, and Rogue One all fare substantially better on audience reception (all of them, unlike TLJ, have an audience reception that is generally positive).


This is precisely proving my point that some TLJ apologists are entirely unwilling to acknowledge that a reasonable chunk of the fan base did not enjoy the film.   Wake up, it wasn't just some tiny overly loud minority that didn't like it...   Not that it matters.  Some people like, great.  Some people hate it, fine.  That's not to say anyone or everyone should or shouldn't like the film -- it's a matter of taste and subjective preference, to each their own.  But you can't keep maintaining this "fake news" attitude that the dislike of TLJ is rooted entirely in a small and shrill insignificant minority, when it appears to be closer to like  60% of the audience.






 

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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6 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

But that's not how the initial claim was made: the obvious intention of the initial claim was saying that, relative to other Star Wars, TLJ was unpopular.  The question is, was TLJ as popular as we'd expect a Star Wars film to be?
 

Actually, the initial claim to which Sekac replied was about the new movies being unpopular, not just the Last Jedi. And he replied accordingly, including the Force Awaken.  And I don't see that it was only relative to other Star Wars, just that the Sequel Trilogy was unpopular in general. Are you saying that the Sequel Trilogy is unpopular?

And even if it was just about The Last Jedi and only relative to other Star Wars, I would not say that it is 'unpopular', more like 'Divisive'. As much as there is fans that hates it to a new level, there is also fans that really loves it. Or do you believe that you are an arbiter to "how the movies are actually viewed?" and say that most fans didn't like it? Because that's what being unpopular implies.

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On 5/22/2018 at 11:46 AM, DXCrazytrain said:

So why do we have to wait for wave 2 for FO and Resistance? Most Wanted started scum with only 4 ships.

Was there an answer to this that I missed?

The cynical answer I keep coming back to is that they want FO and Resistance players to also buy one of the 3 conversion kits so they have something to play until wave 2.

Full confession, I'm just being whiny and grumpy because I have to wait and I'm about as patient as the Emperor is forgiving.

They started with 6 ships, 2 unique ones two repainted models, and conversion for some models. 

There is the Empire while you wait for Jar Jar Abrams' Disasterpiece to hit the table.;)

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Gonna be very interesting to see what they do with FO/Resistance. I like the split, thematically, but I was surprised by it, there's just nowhere near enough ships to support it as yet, so list variety is pretty lame. Clearly the TV series will have to contribute but ep 9 is too far away to give them much, early on.

2 things I look forward to atm, which should happen. 4/5 named TIE/fo's being viable. The RZ-2 A Wing.

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12 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

don't forget the Tie/ your momma from The Last Jedi.....

TIE/mekangeroodownsport?

4 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Gonna be very interesting to see what they do with FO/Resistance. I like the split, thematically, but I was surprised by it, there's just nowhere near enough ships to support it as yet, so list variety is pretty lame. Clearly the TV series will have to contribute but ep 9 is too far away to give them much, early on.

2 things I look forward to atm, which should happen. 4/5 named TIE/fo's being viable. The RZ-2 A Wing.

Indeed. Advanced Optics got the TIE/fo All-stars close to being workable, but the fact you could only field 4 of them, not 5, without stripping off a touch too many toys left them feeling wanting.

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21 hours ago, direweasel said:

Right - another excellent point.  Voluntary reviews should not be conflated to being a scientific poll.  Only people with really strong feelings on a movie will tend to bother to go fill out an online review.  I've only ever done it once.  Of all the people who saw the film, I'd be surprised if 10% of them actually went to metacritic to voice their opinion one way or the other.

10%? I would say 0.001%
(also, 90% of the haters)

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10 minutes ago, Odanan said:

10%? I would say 0.001%
(also, 90% of the haters)

I was trying to be overly generous :)

I originally put 1%, but then edited it because I was sure somebody would be able to point out some stat showing 2% of viewers had posted a review somewhere and didn't want it to be close. 

Edited by direweasel

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13 hours ago, Red Castle said:

And even if it was just about The Last Jedi and only relative to other Star Wars, I would not say that it is 'unpopular', more like 'Divisive'. As much as there is fans that hates it to a new level, there is also fans that really loves it. Or do you believe that you are an arbiter to "how the movies are actually viewed?" and say that most fans didn't like it? Because that's what being unpopular implies.


I don't think I'm the arbiter of how movies have been received by audiences (in fact, the whole point of  my first post was to look at the empirical data that might be used).  Looking at what is, in my opinion, the best available data out there on audience reception to TLJ, it suggests that most people didn't like it (~65%).  Of course this isn't a scientific poll that includes in its sample size every single person who ever saw the movie, but that type of data does not and never will exist.  So if we want to say anything about a film's reception, we can either look to the best available data or else say nothing at all beyond mere unfounded speculation.

 

3 hours ago, Odanan said:

10%? I would say 0.001%
(also, 90% of the haters)


But if this is true, then why do ALL THE OTHER STAR WARS MOVIES have generally positive reviews? 

If only people who feel really strongly about films go and rate them, period, then we'd still have to conclude from the data that for 8 of the 9 Star Wars films, lots more people loved it than hated it.  Which means for TLJ, unlike past Star Wars films, lots more people hated it than loved it.  This could be because far less people loved it (than usual) or far more people hated it (than usual), or both.   Either way, the data still supports the point that it was the least well-received Star Wars film by the audience.

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22 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

The Last Jedi: 46% audience score (over 190,000 ratings)

 

18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

If only people who feel really strongly about films go and rate them, period, then we'd still have to conclude from the data that for 8 of the 9 Star Wars films, lots more people loved it than hated it.  Which means for TLJ, unlike past Star Wars films, lots more people hated it than loved it.  This could be because far less people loved it (than usual) or far more people hated it (than usual), or both.   Either way, the data still supports the point that it was the least well-received Star Wars film by the audience. 

"The data" is a joke. 

You do realize what a pathetically small percentage of the total that is, right?  And you further realize how a self-selected population is about the least scientific polling possible, right?  People with the biggest incentive to post are those with the strongest opinions.  So even if all 190k of those people absolutely despised TLJ, it would be a tiny, non-representative proportion of the whole viewership.  It's completely meaningless, and the fact that you place any credence in it tells me that you either have no understanding of statistics, or of proper scientific polling, or both. 

Your attempt to further extrapolate and make a statement that 60% of the people who saw the film didn't like it, is also woefully unproven.

 

Edited by direweasel

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35 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Looking at what is, in my opinion, the best available data out there on audience reception to TLJ, it suggests that most people didn't like it (~65%). 

 

what is this best available data that suggest that 65% people didn't like it?

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Thing is.... what does it matter?

TLJ is popular, it is liked by a sizable population. It's also unpopular, many hate it. These are both clearly true. So it's divisive. I don't really understand what the point of arguing that is.

Certainly don't see what it has to do with FO in 2.0... A topic I am interested in.

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3 hours ago, Odanan said:

Your OP was hijacked! This is a TLJ bashing thread now.

Now we just need to make it political for closing it. ?

In that case... trump is bad, anti-vaxers are worse, the earth is round, and climate change is real.

Also, TLJ is my least favorite of the series but it's still Star Wars so I still like it.

There, that should be all the nails this threads coffin needs.

I will try to start another thread about the FO and Resistance factions. Please join me there for more Wave 2 speculation.

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1 hour ago, DXCrazytrain said:

In that case... trump is bad, anti-vaxers are worse, the earth is round, and climate change is real.

Also, TLJ is my least favorite of the series but it's still Star Wars so I still like it.

There, that should be all the nails this threads coffin needs.

I will try to start another thread about the FO and Resistance factions. Please join me there for more Wave 2 speculation.

Hopefully the next one won't be hijacked. It should be interesting to see what they do for the upcoming conversions. Who knows, maybe FFG know more than we do and have some concept art for The Resistance that is letting them know that we will be seeing a good deal more Resistance and FO ships in that show.

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24 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Hopefully the next one won't be hijacked. It should be interesting to see what they do for the upcoming conversions. Who knows, maybe FFG know more than we do and have some concept art for The Resistance that is letting them know that we will be seeing a good deal more Resistance and FO ships in that show.

I hope that they will take their time with the new Resistance series ship and get their informations right. We already have a couple of Resistance and FO ship to make the transition to 2.0, no need to rush.

as for the second wave, I’m hopeful for a Force Awaken Core Set (like they did in 1st edition), but I’m not holding my breath. I’m actually waiting for those 2 factions before jumping in in 2.0, so not having to buy the first Core Set would be a big plus for me.

as for the ships, I’m mostly intrigued to see what they’ll do with the Upsilon shuttle.

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20 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is precisely proving my point that some TLJ apologists are entirely unwilling to acknowledge that a reasonable chunk of the fan base did not enjoy the film.   Wake up, it wasn't just some tiny overly loud minority that didn't like it...   Not that it matters.  Some people like, great.  Some people hate it, fine.  That's not to say anyone or everyone should or shouldn't like the film -- it's a matter of taste and subjective preference, to each their own.  But you can't keep maintaining this "fake news" attitude that the dislike of TLJ is rooted entirely in a small and shrill insignificant minority, when it appears to be closer to like  60% of the audience.

I'm not going to lie, @Sekac's latest contribution is so incredibly flawed it's downright hilarious.  "If we're trying to determine if people liked a film, we should discount the opinions and views of the people who watched it because bias.".

Talk about the proverbial ostrich defence mechanism.

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On 5/24/2018 at 4:44 AM, Odanan said:

Your OP was hijacked! This is a TLJ bashing thread now.

Now we just need to make it political for closing it. ?

Well the 1st Order wouldn't be here if it was not for the 2nd prequel trilogy (aka Disneyvers). Now not bashing TLJ I actually liked it (mostly for throwing shade on TFA) but I am convinced years from now after Episode 9 comes out we will look back at it with the same discontent as we did for episodes I through III.

That being said, just because the movie sucks doesn't have that much of an effect on the game. Sure I am not a fan of Episode 3 and hopes that Disney decides to just redo the whole series (but after episode 7 and 8 that might not be a good idea) but I will still very much want Clone Wars era ships to come out. Even though I am not a fan of the Arc (it should have been Z-95 in the movies) it is already out in the games and is a good ship. I am more into the gameplay and not the narrative so yeah those movies suck, bring out their ships anyways. CIS, Republic, Resistance, 1st Order, Alliance, Empire and Scum.

Heck we could make our own narrative much like that one short comic strip The Star Wars where G. Lucas talked more about his original concept before it got started on the script, where Sith Lord and Galactic Emperor were two different people. Sort of a mirror universe, the pieces are the same but players are different. 1st Order is a shadowy nations that existence is denied but is still the power behind the Galactic Empire and Confederate of Independent Systems. Republic is a fractured conglomeration that split into CIS and had a coup that formed the Empire. The Empire just lost a civil war resulting with a new nation the Alliance. The Resistance is another splinter group from the Empire that is allied with the CIS but not the Republic however still has yet to gain recognition from other groups including the Empire. There, all the major factions in all 3 eras now coexist in a single coherent narrative. Call it The X-Wing Wars. (Yes there will be some Mandalorian backstory squeezed in there, we can call it the Jumpmaster Crisis).

Edited by Marinealver

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6 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I'm not going to lie, @Sekac's latest contribution is so incredibly flawed it's downright hilarious.  "If we're trying to determine if people liked a film, we should discount the opinions and views of the people who watched it because bias.".

Talk about the proverbial ostrich defence mechanism.

How else can I possibly respond to someone making the point that we should discount professional opinions because they might possibly maybe be afraid to get black balled ? 

I'll take the opinions of experts, 1 or 2 life which might be compromised, over a group that includes people literally petitioning to have TLJ removed from theaters because it so offended their fandom! A group whose reviews will certainly include things like "that's not how the force works!" and "The Holdo Maneuver was so stupid, why don't they just do that in every battle?"

Yes, let's listen to the fans so rabid and eager to tell everyone how stupid the movie is that before turning on the camera, giving their spiel, editing  and uploading it,  they never stop to ask themselves, "hmmm... as a member of a species that has not yet solved light speed travel, will speaking authoritatively about what militaries that have solved it should or shouldn't do with that technology make me look like a jackass?"

Because the answer is yes.

A lot of Star Wars fans are jackasses. I'm a huge star wars fan too, and probably a bit of a jackass. We just care too much. 

But at least I have the good sense to know that I'm never going to view a star wars movie objectively and that my opinion is unusable in an objective study.

Averaging a bunch of unusable opinions doesn't all of a sudden make it good data. 

And again, this is all beside the point. The movies are hugely popular, that was all I was disputing. Whether or not I'm wrong about how statistically meaningful rotten tomatoes users are doesn't change the fact that the "half" that don't like it still went and paid to watch it. 

I'm sorry if you don't like them, but you are also part of the population that made the new movies so popular. 

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3 hours ago, Sekac said:

I'll take the opinions of experts, 1 or 2 life which might be compromised, over a group that includes people literally petitioning to have TLJ removed from theaters because it so offended their fandom! A group whose reviews will certainly include things like "that's not how the force works!" and "The Holdo Maneuver was so stupid, why don't they just do that in every battle?"



OMG, so when you answer the question "what percentage of fans like the new TLJ movie?" you start by ignoring the entire group of folks who hated it, because you disagree with their opinions about the film?

Uhhh.....   wait what?

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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8 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



OMG, so when you answer the question "what percentage of fans like the new TLJ movie?" you start by ignoring the entire group of folks who hated it, because you disagree with their opinions about the film?

Uhhh.....   wait what?

That was never the question. I really don't know how to make that more clear...

I'm going to state it one more time and I suggest you read it really really slowly.

The question is, was, and always has been:

"Are the new movies popular?"

The percentage of fans that disliked one of the new movies have no bearing whatsoever on how popular it is. Fans that hated it and fans that liked both paid to see it. 100% of people that watched it contributed to making it popular. 

 

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1 hour ago, Sekac said:

The percentage of fans that disliked one of the new movies have no bearing whatsoever on how popular it is. Fans that hated it and fans that liked both paid to see it. 100% of people that watched it contributed to making it popular.

Thank you for getting it back to that.  I tried that argument a few pages back, thought not as well stated as that, and then allowed myself to get sidetracked.  But yes, this is the bottom line.  I think other people are using a different definition of the word "popular" than we are, and that's where the confusion is coming in. 

If a ton of people voluntarily paid for a product, then the product is popular.  Period.

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23 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


 Looking at what is, in my opinion, the best available data out there on audience reception to TLJ, it suggests that most people didn't like it (~65%). 

@AllWingsStandyingBy

I'll ask again, because you seem to have missed it the first time and I'm curious to know the answer.

What is this best available data that suggest that 65% people didn't like it?

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1 hour ago, Sekac said:

The percentage of fans that disliked one of the new movies have no bearing whatsoever on how popular it is. Fans that hated it and fans that liked both paid to see it. 100% of people that watched it contributed to making it popular.

Popular
(adjective)

1.  liked or admired by many people or by a particular person or group.
"she was one of the most popular girls in the school"
synonyms:  well liked, liked, favoured, in favour, well received, approved, admired, accepted, welcome, sought-after, in demand, desired, wanted; More
commercial, marketable, saleable, fashionable, in fashion, in vogue, voguish, all the rage, hot

I think the adjective you're looking for is successful @Sekac.  Because TFA and (to a lesser extent) TLJ have certainly been succesful when it comes to generating revenue (in the short term, at least - current projections for Solo make it seem as though people are taking the once bitten/twice shy approach following TLJ).

If a large quantity of those paying customers leave the theatre disappointed, unhappy or in a mood to write a scathing review on a movie site, that certainly doesn't make it popular.

 

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