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D.Erasmus

Anyone else seen Solo yet? *Spoilers*

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7 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Canto Bight arc. That and commie bot in solo. (If they add that abomination to X-wing I’m going to print some alt arts that would make Stalin crack a smile).

Guess you didn't watch the Clone Wars series. They have a commie bot in that also, he led a droid uprising against some Mandalorian Death Watch, who are really, very fine people btw. I don't know what George Lucas was thinking, by allowing that little beeping, bleeping commie R2-D2 to do that. Also, why was there no outrage or butt hurt about that? LMAO

Edited by acesandeights
Spell check changed butt hurt to Pittsburgh

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9 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

No captain antilies was in charge of the ship, the captain is always the ruling authority on any ship, if an admiral takes command he becomes the captain, if the senior officer dies the next in line becomes the defacto captain.

And enfy is representive of the narrative that women are better than men and should always be in charge, same thing as holdo in tlj.

And yes i have not seen the film, thats why i'm going at this from a dispasionate place.

Disagree all you like guys thats your right but there's no reason to keep being so antagonistic, constantly trying to cast me as angry guy is not constructive as should of become obvious by now, it's gotten boring to read the same false accusation over and over.

Captain Antilles is subordinate to the royal family. Leia was firmly in charge of that ship and of it's mission. It is ridiculous to say that Leia is not one of the leaders of the Rebellion in the original trilogy. As is Mon Mothma, also a woman. Gasp.

Enfys and Holdo do not push any kind of gender agenda. They're just people in positions of power. Do you think women should not be in positions of power? Would you have liked the movies better if only men had been in positions of power?

I mean is that what this really boils down to? "Holdo/Enfys shouldn't have been in charge. Because she's a woman".

This is Star Wars. They could have cast a male, a female, or a gender ambiguous alien or robot. Why be upset that they chose a woman?

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37 minutes ago, acesandeights said:

Guess you didn't watch the Clone Wars series. They have a commie bot in that also, he led a droid uprising against some Mandalorian Death Watch, who are really, very fine people btw. I don't know what George Lucas was thinking, by allowing that little beeping, bleeping commie R2-D2 to do that. Also, why was there no outrage or butt hurt about that? LMAO

That entire setting and scene is different from commie bot in solo. 

Rofl

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4 hours ago, joewrightgm said:

Just saw it.  I had fun with it.  Definitely not Rogue One good, but a fun story none the less. 

Despite my initial misgivings about having really ‘big’ named celebs in it, they played their parts very well.

Really, it is a miracle that the film wasn't a complete and utter mess. It wasn't great, but it could have been much worse and as is it falls between enjoyable and meh. You know what really might have helped this film? Pushing its release back to this December, they could have refined stuff a little more and it would have been cheaper on the production budget I'd imagine and increase its box office budget not competing against alot of other films and being placed in a less than ideal weekend for releases anyways. 

29 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

So what upset you the most about L3?

Well I know she annoyed me, not ruin the film or anything but she was annoying. Probably more that she was in your face, and shaming others kind of deal, not that anyone really took her seriously and ends up dying without really accomplishing anything. She was sort of eyerolly for me, but thats cause I like the more 'active doing' aspect of droid rights like IG-88, Droid Grota, etc. 

Reflecting on the film it seems more like she was a parody of the sterotypical SJW than a character to really push that kind of agenda like some might insist here and there. 

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1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

So what upset you the most about L3?

 

 The short answer: L3  wasn't funny. They tried to make another K-2SO and failed. (Idk, maybe she wasn't meant to be)

The Long answer:

I literally only watched the trailers, I had no idea what to expect from L3. Then when we're first introduced It's all like cool, this is Lando's droid. Oh she's sassy, like K-2SO. I like where this is going.

Then she starts yelling at the droids in the fighting ring and it's like... that's not funny. And keeps rambling about it the whole time there making their way down to the Falcon. Okay, she's clearly here to cater to people who identify as SJW's, and yeah you shouldn't abuse/misuse technology, so while not funny yeah whatever. still not a terrible character at this point, and even with L3's mannerisms, not a bad message.

Then we have that awkward conversation in the Falcon's cockpit, which was actually kind of funny, Like L3 you are a droid, so a little bit of irony humor there. 

Then we get down to Kessel. And the plan's going fine, and L3 starts complaining about droid rights again, and start's setting all of the droids free, and yelling about my compatriots. So not only does she nearly ruin the overall plan of stealing the Kalaxium with her little droid rebellion, most of the time she's rattling on about droid rights again, in the command center of Kessel, a planet filled with actual slaves. And it's only by dumb luck (thank you GONK!) sets all the prisoners free. To me it feels akin complaining about the food at Mcdonalds to a starving person. You're complaint might be valid in a localized way, but in the bigger scope they don't mean much.

Besides the fact that droids are ultimately machines, and it's their programming (Or bugs in programming in certain instances, according to Cassian) that gives them the human like traits. and L3 spouting off how droids should rise up like in terminator and be given the same rights as other beings is just... absurd, really.

It's weird, as much as I dislike the character, I do like how she ends up, uploaded into the Falcon. I can kind of picture her now in the OT. 

"Yeah Han, I heard about your little fight with Leia. Oh what's that, now your bringing her on board? Well let me just overload the negative power coupling. Good luck doing anymore kessel runs without the hyperdrive you cheater!"

Or 

"After 15 something years you finally brought me back to Lando! It's about time! Wait... where are we going? What is that?! OH NO, another death star." 

Or

"Power sequence completed.... wait, Who is this girl!? Eh, well she's better looking than unkar Plutt, that's for sure."

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It's important to remember she wasn't setting out to free the droids, she just wanted that one droid to get out of her way. The rebellion was a complete accident.

Just now, FlyingAnchors said:

Besides the fact that droids are ultimately machines, and it's their programming (Or bugs in programming in certain instances, according to Cassian) that gives them the human like traits. and L3 spouting off how droids should rise up like in terminator and be given the same rights as other beings is just... absurd, really.

One thing to remember is that droids are very clearly sentient in Star Wars. They frequently express happiness, sadness, fear, they have a sense of their own mortality, they feel pain, they express loyalty and devotion, they require restraining bolts (what are these for if the droids are just computers with no free will?) and this is all just in the OT. Remember C3PO's apprehension at being given to Jabba, his dialogue with R2 when they land on Tatooine in ANH, his despair when he thinks Han, Chewie, Luke and Leia have been crushed in the trash compactor... the list goes on and on. We see a mouse droid flee in terror at the sight of Chewbacca, we see a GONK droid screaming as his feet are burned in RotJ. We see battle droids in the prequels acting cowardly (why program a droid to feel fear?) etc, etc, etc. They're very clearly sentient.

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42 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

It's important to remember she wasn't setting out to free the droids, she just wanted that one droid to get out of her way. The rebellion was a complete accident.

One thing to remember is that droids are very clearly sentient in Star Wars. They frequently express happiness, sadness, fear, they have a sense of their own mortality, they feel pain, they express loyalty and devotion, they require restraining bolts (what are these for if the droids are just computers with no free will?) and this is all just in the OT. Remember C3PO's apprehension at being given to Jabba, his dialogue with R2 when they land on Tatooine in ANH, his despair when he thinks Han, Chewie, Luke and Leia have been crushed in the trash compactor... the list goes on and on. We see a mouse droid flee in terror at the sight of Chewbacca, we see a GONK droid screaming as his feet are burned in RotJ. We see battle droids in the prequels acting cowardly (why program a droid to feel fear?) etc, etc, etc. They're very clearly sentient.

Why program a droid to feel fear? Because there expensive, obviously. You want your droid to come back in one piece, not have it blindly walk into some hazard.

And I totally disagree. They are not sentient. They just have a very advanced form autonomy, that gives them the appearance of being human, I suspect to better fit into their surroundings.

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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Just now, FlyingAnchors said:

Why program a droid to feel fear? Because there expensive, obviously. You want your droid to come back in one piece, not have it blindly walk into some hazard.

And I totally disagree. They are not sentient.

I don't see how you can reconcile the behaviour of the droids in Star Wars with that statement. In one instance R2 steals his own X Wing, disobeys orders from Luke and flies off to save C3PO.

Why did that droid run off and free the other droids after his restraining bolt was removed?

Why even HAVE restraining bolts? What are they for if the droids are totally devoid of free will?

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23 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I don't see how you can reconcile the behaviour of the droids in Star Wars with that statement. In one instance R2 steals his own X Wing, disobeys orders from Luke and flies off to save C3PO.

Why did that droid run off and free the other droids after his restraining bolt was removed?

Why even HAVE restraining bolts? What are they for if the droids are totally devoid of free will?

Because his logic board determined that was the best course action, given L3's response to the given situation. Did she not tell him to "your free! do whatever!"

Sentience (Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive or experience subjectively.) and Freewill(the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion) are two different things. 

The US Navy has a drone prototype that can Launch, Fly, and Land itself on an aircraft carrier, or divert itself to an airbase and land their without having any input from a human being at all. It also has the freewill to select the best course of any of these actions at any given time, but it lacks the ability to subjectively perceive what the best course of action it should take. It will only return to the carrier because of a mechanical problem or low fuel, not because it feels sleepy. 

Legends actually covers this pretty in-depth: 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Droid_programming

 

And yeah, while sentience programming does exists, it's limited exclusively to IG-88 and the droids he recruited when he took over the 2nd Death Star.

Now you could argue that droids have artificial sentience, or more commonly called artificial intelligence, but it's still just droids running programming language set of options. Exception of IG-88, we have yet to see a droid act beyond the scope of it's programming(which is pretty wide in Star Wars). 

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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But... the droids in Star Wars DO feel, perceive or experience subjectively AND act without the constraint of necessity, at their own discretion.

All the time!

In all the movies!

That drone sounds really cool, but does it get sad when it's operator gets sick? Does it verbally insult the other drones? Does it decide to go on rescue missions when the other drones get injured or captured? 

The droids in Star Wars make decisions on their own all the time, for their own reasons. They are very much self aware and intelligent, with sentience and free will. This is REPEATEDLY shown.

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10 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Okay, she's clearly here to cater to people who identify as SJW's, and yeah you shouldn't abuse/misuse technology, so while not funny yeah whatever. 

So what is a SJW? What does that term mean to you? I see this “Social Justice Warrior” term being used a lot. 

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10 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Why program a droid to feel fear? Because there expensive, obviously. You want your droid to come back in one piece, not have it blindly walk into some hazard.

And I totally disagree. They are not sentient. They just have a very advanced form autonomy, that gives them the appearance of being human, I suspect to better fit into their surroundings.

 
It's a hard-GONK life, for us
It's a hard-GONK life, for us!
Steada oil-baths, we get tricked
Steada free will, we get kicked
It's the hard-GONK life!

200.gif

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Most droids are sentient in the same way people consider animals to be but that comes down to personal philosophy and therein your definition of sentience. As characters it makes sense to have them be sapient like the biological characters but they don't have the same agency in the context of that universe . K2's sacrifice means a lot less when you realize they could just take his hard drive and put it into another unit with zero repercussion. C3PO gets disassembled and reassembled numerous times with no adverse effects. 

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Well yes. If a droid gets completely vaporized or what have you then it's done but standard damage we see to them is a few blasters hits and the lights go out. You can resuscitate a human after their heart stops too and they'll live. Difference is you have to do substantially more destructive damage to a droid to 'kill' it in the same way as a biologic. Whatever their entity is stored in can typically be saved in the cases of character droids we see dying. We see exactly that with L3.

Edited by McFoy

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On 5/30/2018 at 5:29 AM, FlyingAnchors said:

Why program a droid to feel fear? Because there expensive, obviously. You want your droid to come back in one piece, not have it blindly walk into some hazard.

And I totally disagree. They are not sentient. They just have a very advanced form autonomy, that gives them the appearance of being human, I suspect to better fit into their surroundings.

You mean like a 2-year old? ?

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Droids who become more human usually do so through 'life experience', and whilst star wars isn't entirely consistent about it, it's implied that wiping memory, or being rebuilt too substantially, may cost you that experience (or at least the evolved mindstate resulting from it) even if you have the memories themselves. Whether you'd get another K2-SO by attaching salvaged memory chips to another K2 or just a K2 droid with some confusing memories is a good question.

Newer droids, or ones who get 'wiped' on a regular basis, are the 'roger roger' types. They steadily evolve into more complex individuals like R2-D2.

At the same time, I agree that 'killing' a droid completely takes a lot more effort. Both L3 and C-3PO get functionally blown to bits and are still salvaged (totally, in 3POs case).

The fact that a restraining bolt exists as a common, recognised technology implies the potential for a droid to rebel.

As far as the ethics of it goes, bear in mind that the major governments were 'okay' with using both droids (even relatively smart supertacticals) and clones both as disposable military assets....so slavery in one form or another is pretty common.

 

Enfys Nest.....

I dislike Holdo intensely. Not because of gender, but because:

  • The character feels shoehorned in for no reason (there was a whole swathe of named ex-rebel characters she could have been) given that she's killed off almost immediately (I mistakenly assumed she was being set up as 'new leia' to replace Carrie Fisher, which would have made more sense)
  • The character's existence makes limited sense. Given the displayed size of the resistance fleet in the films (one cruiser and screen) with no real indication that there's much more of a fleet 'off camera', it emphatically does not justify the existence of multiple flag officers.  Nor does a Vice Admiral commanding a corvette make much sense.
  • The character is irritating because she's inept. Not tactically - it's not a bad plan - but as a people-manager. I'm not trying to move the ultimate blame for what happened to the transports off Poe and Finn (who talked about the must-be-kept-secret plan in front of DJ) but not explaining a plan which does, to be fair, look really bad if you don't understand it, is the mark of a really bad people manager, and simultaneously grounding Poe but not confining him to quarters or brigging him left him free to come up with his own long-shot plan - which is exactly what you'd expect from someone with the personality of...well...basically every effective Resistance, Rebel and Jedi operative in star wars history (Cassian Andor? Han Solo? Wedge Antilles? Anakin Skywalker?).

By comparison, Enfys Nest is genuinely competent. And not a complete tool to people she's dealing with (when not trying to hit them with a concussion saw tazer stick thing, anyway).

  • My main impression was how young she looks (not Erin Kellyman's fault; it's the freckles) - which given that her character's role is essentially 'traumatized orphan who's decided to do something about it' suits.
  • The character fits the setting - whilst the 'Rich Corporations are bad' bit of The Last Jedi on Canto Bight was a bit overdone, 'Galactic Criminal Syndicates are bad' is a bit less of a questionable underlying theme; it's kind of their thing. The Cloud Riders are actually a very old bit of resurrected EU guff from the very first Marvel comics. Enfys Nest makes for a less ridiculous-looking boss than Serji-X Arrogantus, frankly.

 

Also, my other thought - I wasn't expecting Maul, but was expecting someone else - with connections to the underworld with the family name Vos, I was wondering if he might be related. Seeing Quinlan in the holocast and having Qira say "your brother's dead" would have been interesting....

 

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43 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:
  • The character feels shoehorned in for no reason (there was a whole swathe of named ex-rebel characters she could have been) given that she's killed off almost immediately (I mistakenly assumed she was being set up as 'new leia' to replace Carrie Fisher, which would have made more sense)
  • The character's existence makes limited sense. Given the displayed size of the resistance fleet in the films (one cruiser and screen) with no real indication that there's much more of a fleet 'off camera', it emphatically does not justify the existence of multiple flag officers.  Nor does a Vice Admiral commanding a corvette make much sense.

For the first point, I don't mind too much because every new face we add makes the galaxy feel a little larger. In the old EU anyone who had some facetime in the movies was a workhorse superstart. Dodonna invented the A Wing, Ackbar invented the B Wing, etc etc. Having the same characters pop up all the time is not better than introducing new ones.

And for the second point, the Resistance is populated largely by ex military from outside organisations. She was probably an admiral in the 'real' military and was allowed to keep her rank as she was ported over to the Resistance. I don't disagree that she made an error in not dealing with Poe, but at the same time she doesn't see as much of what's going on as we do. She has a brief tete-à-tete with him in the bridge of the Raddus and then he just, from her perspective, seems like a disgruntled pilot. It's only the audience who knows just how over the top he is getting. But you're right, the smart move would have been to have him confined to quarters or tossed in the brig after he came to her with the plan about Rose and Finn.

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