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Is Luke Gunner Actually That Good?

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2 minutes ago, Ebak said:

I respectfully disagree. I think it is good design. It's nice to see the developers looking at casual play as a legitimate thing and not just thinking "BWAH! COMPETITIVE!" like a lot of players were concerned about. Luke is thematic and very in keeping with what we see in the film and is costed quite hight for an upgrade. In comparison in first edition you could get a Z-95 headhunter for his cost. Okay, it's just a headhunter but that is still once less ship you cannot field because of Luke.

 Luke also provides the player with decent choice options, offering the player a crutch if they aren't good at predicting arcs but rewards them for proper arc placement and flying as they can then spend Lukes force point on a conversion. Anything that offers choice is, in my opinion, a good design.

As for design space, in that aspect, I do agree with you, although they could alter the wording on the card (if they wish) or simply change when an ability would trigger in the engagement phase. While clunky they could say "During the engagement phase, at initiative 7 you may ---" it is very awkward but it is something they can work around. There are solutions to any problem and I don't think Luke causes all the problems people say it will. I might end up being wrong, I might end up being right. The truth of the matter is that Second Edition is 3 months away and we won't know before that.

We don't need 2nd edition to be out already to be worried. We already know firing outside of arc abilities are overpowered in the current game, 2nd edition isn't so different from 1st in the basics that such an ability still being around isn't a potential problem. Yeah, you can't quite put together the full Fat Turret package due to other changes in 2.0, but you can get scarily close. Even if Engine Upgrade is also ridiculously expensive there are going to be Han and Lando (new Rebel Lando is I 5 if I recall correctly?) builds that aren't that far off, especially in a world where dice mods and action economies are a lot lower across the board and Auto Thrusters doesn't exist anymore. It's not even so much that you'd necessarily need to use his ability every turn; if you need to get out of arcs, you can still get a shot, but if you're outflying your opponent you get the action free Force token dice mod instead, sometimes both.

Yes, they have a means to fix things now if/when he does become a problem, but the fact there's something that already looks like it's going to require them to go to those measures before 2nd edition even releases is worrying.

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Unfortunately, the damage is already done.

We just gotta hope this poor decision can be swept under the rug by being blatantly overcosted. With any luck, it'll just result in the waste of this version of an iconic character and not hours upon hours of infuriating games.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Oh, I am not saying we can't be worried. What I am saying is the proof will be in the pudding, we can talk, debate and theorize about it all we want but we won't know until we actually see how 2.0 actually plays in the context of 2.0 and not comparing it to 1.0. Yes we can agree that turrets in 1.0 are very scary, but without knowing everything and being able to actually playtest it, we can't know for certain if it is too much or not. The developers do, they seem to have been testing this for a long time.

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3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Unfortunately, the damage is already done.

We just gotta hope this poor decision can be swept under the rug by being blatantly overcosted. With any luck, it'll just result in the waste of this version of an iconic character and not hours upon hours of infuriating games.

I hope this comes out and proves to be no problem at all just to see you eat your very pessimistic and negative words Fickle (and I will gladly do the same if I am wrong). It just seems whenever I see a comment by you I have to roll my eyes and think "Oh here we go, more 2.0 negativity." You know what Fickle if you are so concerned about 2.0, why are you even investing in it?

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People really like to ignore all the threads and posts I've made in support of 2.0. I have not made a thread about Gunner Luke.

Gunner Luke, as I've repeatedly stated, is the one mistake. It's all the more glaring given all the effort the devs have put into designing things such as mobile arcs in the first place.

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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7 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

The devs basically just said that Luke is intentionally uncompetitive point wise and is there as a crutch for new players starting out.  How is that bad?

Well, to play devils, advocate, here. Just because they've cost it high, doesn't mean that it will be high enough. That being said, if we do compare to 1.0, Luke is the most expensive upgrade ever. Now in 2.0, it could be that upgrades do cost quite a lot but it also could be that the cost is marginal.

Although you will never please everyone. People will moan why they can't fly Luke in competitive and argue about an iconic character even though we could just get another Luke upgrade as a crew instead of a gunner and iconically Luke is more known flying his own X-Wing.

Edited by Ebak

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1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

People really like to ignore all the threads and posts I've made in support of 2.0.

Gunner Luke, as I've repeatedly stated, is the one mistake. It's all the more glaring given all the effort the devs have put into designing things such as mobile arcs in the first place.

 

Yeah, because you double down hard on the anti-Luke sentiment. There is no sunshine and rainbows about that upgrade, there is no 'well maybe' it's all NO IT'S TERRIBLE AND IT SUCKS. You don't even entertain the idea that it could be okay. At least, whenever I've seen you talk about him.

Edited by Ebak

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Because there is no "maybe".

It is the reincarnate of a lazily designed 1.0 mechanic that is utterly without merit or value in the new system.

It is NOT a good set of "training wheels" because it doesn't ease you into mobile arcs as much as utterly defeat the purpose of them. It is NOT a good representation of force users as none allow you to just casually shatter the maneuvering aspect of the game.

All it does is introduce the unnecessary risk that we'll see some fat turret become really flipping popular to the detriment of everything else. When the best case scenario of a design element is "well, maybe it'll be SO BAD that we won't see it on the table!", it's a clear sign that things could have been done better.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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The one thing I regret about 1.0; I introduced a friend to the game back in wave 5 and his first game was using Dash and Keyan. I regret my decision entirely because for months, the first year, even. He would always have a turret in his list and he didn't improve as a pilot. Hello, David if you are reading this.

The moment I challenged him to a no turret list, he started to improve. Now, in 2.0, I can still introduce someone to the game with an 'easy mode' turret but also teach them the value of manoeuvring and use a modification from Luke rather than always using him to switch the arc because now there is a choice. Especially since they will be forced to improve and get better if they want to enter competitive play or be forced to fly with a points handicap (essentially).

Edited by Ebak

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10 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Because there is no "maybe".

It is the reincarnate of a lazily designed 1.0 mechanic that is utterly without merit or value in the new system.

It is NOT a good set of "training wheels" because it doesn't ease you into mobile arcs as much as utterly defeat the purpose of them. It is NOT a good representation of force users as none allow you to just casually shatter the maneuvering aspect of the game.

It represents Luke's ability to use the Force to anticipate what he needs to do. Much like he uses it to anticipate when to fire his torpedoes, Vader uses it to Barrel Roll or even perform a Boost before he ever reveals his dial.

It still locks Luke into two firing arcs, and prevents him from being able to shoot out of more than one of them. Plus, he costs as much as an A-Wing.

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Wow, such stubborn immunity to other viewpoints is impressive!

Some of us immediately identified it as great casual card, as useful set of training wheels. The devs confirmed that it is indeed the idea behind it and they do and will cost it accordingly.

(And yes @ficklegreendice, it is because it allows for mistakes (rotate arc) but rewards proper usage of mobile arcs with a free dice mod. That is basically the definition of training wheels and I‘m not sure why you refuse to see it.)

I‘m done with the topic. If the devs chiming in didn‘t help then nothing else will.

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The devs have been wrong before, oh so many times. Let's not forget 2.0 is, all in all, them admitting that they had screwed up the game beyond reparation and had to start all over.

Luke is expensive, sure. But in a world where there are no 360 degree turrets, how much would you pay for making yours be a 360 turret?
The Punishing One title was also 12 points in 1.0 and I don't think anyone ever considered bringing Dengar without it, and it just added one more die. Under which circumstances wouldn't Dash want to spend the equivalent of 15 points in 1.0 to have his 4 dice turret become 360? While everyone else has to spend an action (that are super premium in 2.0) and guess to which arc to rotate, Luke gives you a free rotate, with full information or, if not needed, a Force token.

Luke will become autoinclude in certain ships. Perhaps not on Y-wings or HWK, or K-wings, but most likely in the expensive ones where the more you spend, the stronger it becomes.
It happened with Biggs. A 25 points "upgrade" that buffed your squadron so much that became autoinclude. It was known as the "Biggs tax", not so long ago. Luke will become the "Luke tax" to be able to abuse the game with your 360 degrees turrets, and people will gladly pay the cost.

Everyone is comparing Luke with training wheels. Even I did so some pages earlier. But the more I think on it, the more I see "training wheels" aren't the right simile. 
The right simile is playing with an autoaim in a first person shooter, with the twist that if you actually aim well by yourself, you instead get extra damage.
Sure most experienced players don't need the autoaim part, but who would really not activate it even just for those times that things go wrong? And if you don't need it for aiming, you still get the extra damage!

Why would I want any other gunner, that can be situationally good, when Luke is good all the time even if you don't need it for aiming? In which circumstances would I prefer adding another Z-95 or naked A-wing, when instead I can guarantee that my main ship will be useful every single round?

They have stated that if anything proves to be problematic, and for problematic they mean that it becomes too dominant for too long, they will overprice it out of the meta, or directly take it out of the pool of valid cards for the game mode.
Say whatever, but that matches exactly fickle's expression of sweeping a mistake under the carpet.
I think, most likely, they will errata his ability to add some limitation or move it to a different phase, or make it sensitive to stress or blocking.

 

In the end, while I find very interesting their new 2.0 philosophy of "Design first for theme. Then balance it out with price later", I fear it won't always work well.
There are just some things you cannot balance out with costs, and the TIE Phantom initial decloak was exactly that: a mechanic that disrupted the game so much that it didn't belong in it, regardless of cost.

Edited by Azrapse

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21 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

The devs have been wrong before, oh so many times. Let's not forget 2.0 is, all in all, them admitting that they had screwed up the game beyond reparation and had to start all over.

Luke is expensive, sure. But in a world where there are no 360 degree turrets, how much would you pay for making yours be a 360 turret?
The Punishing One title was also 12 points in 1.0 and I don't think anyone ever considered bringing Dengar without it, and it just added one more die. Under which circumstances wouldn't Dash want to spend the equivalent of 15 points in 1.0 to have his 4 dice turret become 360? While everyone else has to spend an action (that are super premium in 2.0) and guess to which arc to rotate, Luke gives you a free rotate, with full information or, if not needed, a Force token.

Luke will become autoinclude in certain ships. Perhaps not on Y-wings or HWK, or K-wings, but most likely in the expensive ones where the more you spend, the stronger it becomes.
It happened with Biggs. A 25 points "upgrade" that buffed your squadron so much that became autoinclude. It was known as the "Biggs tax", not so long ago. Luke will become the "Luke tax" to be able to abuse the game with your 360 degrees turrets, and people will gladly pay the cost.

Everyone is comparing Luke with training wheels. Even I did so some pages earlier. But the more I think on it, the more I see "training wheels" aren't the right simile. 
The right simile is playing with an autoaim in a first person shooter, with the twist that if you actually aim well by yourself, you instead get extra damage.
Sure most experienced players don't need the autoaim part, but who would really not activate it even just for those times that things go wrong? And if you don't need it for aiming, you still get the extra damage!

Why would I want any other gunner, that can be situationally good, when Luke is good all the time even if you don't need it for aiming? In which circumstances would I prefer adding another Z-95 or naked A-wing, when instead I can guarantee that my main ship will be useful every single round?

They have stated that if anything proves to be problematic, and for problematic they mean that it becomes too dominant for too long, they will overprice it out of the meta, or directly take it out of the pool of valid cards for the game mode.
Say whatever, but that matches exactly fickle's expression of sweeping a mistake under the carpet.
I think, most likely, they will errata his ability to add some limitation or move it to a different phase, or make it sensitive to stress or blocking.

 

In the end, while I find very interesting their new 2.0 philosophy of "Design first for theme. Then balance it out with price later", I fear it won't always work well.
There are just some things you cannot balance out with costs, and the TIE Phantom initial decloak was exactly that: a mechanic that disrupted the game so much that it didn't belong in it, regardless of cost.

At least three of the other gunners can give 2 attacks if you fly well and will save you points, which don't have to be used on another z or a, instead can be used to make your wingman an actual threat too. Because if its just fully kitted out single attack dash and a generic buddy, then most lists will chew through him quick with maybe one casualty, then you will have a generic vs 1 -2 kitted out ships that will probably fly circles around it. Of course I could be wrong and they make all the other good gunners around 25 points instead of 10 -15 so wont gain much by not running Luke, but I doubt they will be the point sink he is.

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8 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

It is NOT a good set of "training wheels" because it doesn't ease you into mobile arcs as much as utterly defeat the purpose of them.

Not really. Because it happens after maneuvering someone learning is able to fully see their mistake and think/discuss what they could've done differently, but can just spend the force token to keep the game they're in competitive. Just getting completely crushed and outflown isn't the only way to learn the game.

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A well modded 180 mobile arc + another 2/3 die attack with an extra, entirely separate ship is surely better, if flown well, than a barely modded 360 turret. I can't see him being auto include at all. 

I would compare it to EU Vader, rather than Dash/Dengar. Vader is a lot better with EU but sometimes, often even, it's points best spent elsewhere. He's still good, after all, and maybe offers something you might not get on another frame. We all know points become scarce when listbuilding and sacrifices must be made. 30 odd points is enormous considering there's no extra dice involved.

****, people seem to do fairly well with non LWF Quickdraw. I don't understand that AT ALL! :D

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A few things I am curious about is we know he has a crew and gunner slot, but have yet to know if he retained his canon slot. If he still had it would equipping a canon give him a front arc? if so then when the turret was switched to the sides he would only have 1 blind spot in his back and this would really boost all the double attack gunners on him, so much so that I think Luke would be a very poor choice to put on him. Just a thought I had, feel free to let me know where I am wrong and if it was confirmed somewhere that for sure he no longer has a canon slot.

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I'm looking forward to going against Dash + Luke Gunner Crew if i'm honest. It's going to be the new bogey man that people put on the table, people constantly look for it in tournament results but it just never quite seems to make a mark due to it being essentially a single ship list. 

Some great players will get some mileage out of it, as will the ones that ran double shadowcasters and just flew around the edge of the board with their arcs firing inwards but the common consensus will be:

"Yeah, it's a great combo, shame it costs 142 points though, if I could just get another decent ship in this list, it would be really good."

Then a few tournaments later, another card is released, the meta moves on and we never see the card again. The forums move on to other things to complain about, like Han Crew, Roark and every Force User that pays for it, being Initiative 7. Luke Gunner moves to Epic Only and Luke the Pilot starts to see table time and does surprisingly well. 

Then the HWK meta will come crashing through and sweep people unexpectedly away. The gunboats will stand resolute in the face of this new threat and Dash will repeatedly be ion off the board or hit with so many munitions in a single turn that he lays awake a night, clutching his alt art v.1 engine upgrade, remembering the days of the past. . 

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50 minutes ago, Skandranon said:

At least three of the other gunners can give 2 attacks if you fly well and will save you points, which don't have to be used on another z or a, instead can be used to make your wingman an actual threat too. Because if its just fully kitted out single attack dash and a generic buddy, then most lists will chew through him quick with maybe one casualty, then you will have a generic vs 1 -2 kitted out ships that will probably fly circles around it. Of course I could be wrong and they make all the other good gunners around 25 points instead of 10 -15 so wont gain much by not running Luke, but I doubt they will be the point sink he is.

If there is something we learned from 1.0 is that two unmodded attacks are worse than 1 fully modded attack. That is why TIE/D never really became a thing.
Sure, Han lets you attack first, and Veteran and Bistan lets you attack twice.
Han is of questionable interest on a ship that is already high initiative.
The double tapping ones still imply that you have had to spend one of your scarce actions on turning the turret to face your targets, so you don't have many tokens to properly modify your attack. Much less two attacks. Also, you will not be able to "double tap" on the same target. With Veteran you fire at targets on opposite arcs, while with Bistan you fire at two different targets. So most of the time you are going to be rolling unmodified dice against two different targets that will be able to modify their defense.

 

47 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

A well modded 180 mobile arc + another 2/3 die attack with an extra, entirely separate ship is surely better, if flown well, than a barely modded 360 turret. I can't see him being auto include at all. :D

How is the 180 turret well modded if you had to spend your action at rotating the turret? (assuming that you guessed right to which arc to rotate it)
And how is the 360 turret barely modded when you didn't need to spend an action to rotate the turret, plus you perhaps a Force token to go with it?

If you don't take Luke, then you need to rotate the turret yourself and get no mods for your attack, or change your flight pattern so that the turret arc ends pointing at your enemies, hopefully not being outflown because you fly much more predictably now, and then spend your action for one mod.
If you do take Luke, then you can fly however you want, as unpredictable as you want, then spend your action on a mod or further repositioning, and then either rotate your turret for free or get yet another mod with the Force token.

Under which circumstances you wouldn't want Luke? Luke allows for more unpredictable flying, better action economy, reactive play (instead of predictive, so more safety), and the only thing it costs you is a fewer naked A-wing.
Compare that with
Han: fly predictably or attack unmodded to attack first.
Veteran: fly predictably or attack unmodded to attack two different ships on opposite directions
Bistan: fly predictable or attack unmoded to attack two different ships as long as you still have a focus token left from the first attack.

If there is anything worse than 2 unmodded attacks is 2 unmodded attacks against two different ships.

Edited by Azrapse

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4 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Bistan: fly predictably or attack unmodded to attack two different ships on opposite directions

btw, the second Bistan shot can be modded as he has the focus requirement, and it doesn't need to be in a different arc:

After you perform a primary attack, if you are focused, you may perform a bonus [Turret] attack against a ship you have not already attacked this round.

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5 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Under which circumstances you wouldn't want Luke? 

The circumstances in which you can spend 30 odd points on all the other shenanigans we don't know about yet. 

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1 minute ago, Azrapse said:

If there is something we learned from 1.0 is that two unmodded attacks are worse than 1 fully modded attack. That is why TIE/D never really became a thing.
Sure, Han lets you attack first, and Veteran and Bistan lets you attack twice.
Han is of questionable interest on a ship that is already high initiative.
The double tapping ones still imply that you have had to spend one of your scarce actions on turning the turret to face your targets, so you don't have many tokens to properly modify your attack. Much less two attacks. Also, you will not be able to "double tap" on the same target. With Veteran you fire at targets on opposite arcs, while with Bistan you fire at two different targets. So most of the time you are going to be rolling unmodified dice against two different targets that will be able to modify their defense.

If you are flying well u aren't wasting the action on the turret movement so assuming no mod attacks is just wrong, also am i missing something that everyone ignores ezra? If a ship only has turrets is it considered to have no primary arc? would like to know this, cause at an estimated 14 points he is looking like a great gunner, giving a double attack if u can and if u can't a force token for modding

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