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Firespray-32

Is Luke Gunner Actually That Good?

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I'm also interested in the fact that "Fat Han" can't be so fat anymore and that probably needs to go into the calculations on this. While the Falcon title does provide some extra certainty in the Falcon's defense it still can't be more than 1 evade result (unless range 3 bonus).

We haven't seen enough of the Rebel crew cards to dismiss the Falcon's defenses, of course. We don't know if C-3PO has any of his former BS, or what R2-D2 does if he's also a crew card. They could be as good as they were before or far worse.

If Han doesn't have any good defensive abilities from crew, then him being able to turn his turret in the engagement phase may not matter that much.

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4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

in this case, being forced into your mobile arc still imposes a penalty of -1 red die. That is acceptable, as it represents an actual consequence to failing to catch your opponent in your arc. And really, that's all I ask for.

so if gunner Luke came with a "don't get cocky" clause that limited your attack to 2 dice, he'd be pretty well designed

How about losing dice modification you otherwise would have?

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3 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

How about losing dice modification you otherwise would have?

Not even remotely as impactful

You can easily roll into scenarios where Forcus wouldn't help at all

A two die cap, however, is guaranteed to result in a lower damage cap 

If you're going to get guaranteed benefits bereft of counterplay (unlike the mobile arc rotate action), you better be paying a guaranteed cost 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not even remotely as impactful

You can easily roll into scenarios where Forcus wouldn't help at all

A two die cap, however, is guaranteed to result in a lower damage cap 

If you're going to get guaranteed benefits berft of counterplay, you better be paying a guaranteed cost 

#reddicearefickletoo

Howlrunner ties saw more play than modless HLCs. Modification is bigger than extra dice.

Edited by Rakaydos

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4 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

#reddicearefickletoo

Howlrunner ties saw more play than modless HLCs. Modification is bigger than extra dice.

not that I hold a strong opinion, but shot-mods>no shot +mods

so thats my 2 cents, also, the 2 die cap seems reasonable as it simply makes it more balanced because always getting a shot (provided range and you dont screw up your measuring) is pretty powerful.

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5 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

#reddicearefickletoo

Howlrunner ties saw more play than modless HLCs. Modification is bigger than extra dice.

False parralel

Hlcs were far more expensive and unmodded and provided no range bonus. Han can mod regardless of luke and has his weapon baked in 

Additionally, an extra tie fighter shot ran into an extra green dice roll

But compared to a reroll, an extra die in your pool is objectively better. Same chance to hit on two dice as a rerolled die, but your damage cap is higher by a significant amount 

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1 minute ago, CMDR Ytterium said:

not that I hold a strong opinion, but shot-mods>no shot +mods

so thats my 2 cents, also, the 2 die cap seems reasonable as it simply makes it more balanced because always getting a shot (provided range and you dont screw up your measuring) is pretty powerful.

2 dice with force token: 2x6/8x4/8 chance of double hit (48/64, or 3/4)

3 dice without force token: 4/8x4/8x4/8 for a triple hit, 3x4/8^3 for 2 hits (1/8 chance of triple, 3/8 chance of double, combined 50% chance of 2 hits or better)

 

Two dice with force point is almost always better than 3 dice without.

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37 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

2 dice with force token: 2x6/8x4/8 chance of double hit (48/64, or 3/4)

3 dice without force token: 4/8x4/8x4/8 for a triple hit, 3x4/8^3 for 2 hits (1/8 chance of triple, 3/8 chance of double, combined 50% chance of 2 hits or better)

 

Two dice with force point is almost always better than 3 dice without.

Well, Han will still have two crew slots if he takes shots, so he might have access to a force token elsewhere.

 

Edited by AlexW

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Just now, AlexW said:

Well, Han will still have two crew slots if he takes shots, so he might have access to a force token elsewhere.

 

Multiple sources of force regen dont stack, though you do have more starting force.

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4 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

2 dice with force token: 2x6/8x4/8 chance of double hit (48/64, or 3/4)

3 dice without force token: 4/8x4/8x4/8 for a triple hit, 3x4/8^3 for 2 hits (1/8 chance of triple, 3/8 chance of double, combined 50% chance of 2 hits or better)

 

Two dice with force point is almost always better than 3 dice without.

Not sure what you've done here, but 2 red dice with one force/calculate style token has a 50% chance of scoring 2 hits

3 unmodified red dice has a 37.5% chance of getting 2 hits and 12.5% chance of getting 3 hits making 3 unmodified slightly better

 

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17 hours ago, ForceM said:

If you can’t put Luke Gunner on a Falcon, i will stop playing. But that’s not something FFG would do, period.

It’s a combo that is just so known from the movies, nobody would dare to make this impossible.

I am normally all for balance > anything else, but in this case... Luke is literally in the Falcon in the first ever SW movie, gunning down TIEs, so nobody can tell me this combo is not working in the game.

Sure, Luke as a gunner should be in the game. Luke as a gunner who turns ships into 360 PWT shouldn't be in the game. It does go with the thematic get more stuff from the movie screen in the game. It also goes counter to one of the big motivations for 2nd edition.

Chewie, Han, and Luke in the Falcon? Sign me up.

Chewie, Han, and Luke in the Falcon being all that gets played because the 360 degree arc is just too game-breaking to pass up? Not so much. ?

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1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

I think once players get better at predicting arcs with the Mobile Turret that they will probably gravitate more towards Vet Gunner and the second attack.  the Falcon can be an expensive ship for an attack without much of a re-roll.

I don't think so, to be honest. Multiple shots will need multiple mods to really be worth it, especially as it'd be spreading the damage. It also requires your opponent to be on opposite sides of you for it to work on the Falcon.

The main thing that Gunner Luke allows is to completely open up the Falcon's positioning ability, and we all know how powerful that is.

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17 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

2 dice with force token: 2x6/8x4/8 chance of double hit (48/64, or 3/4)

3 dice without force token: 4/8x4/8x4/8 for a triple hit, 3x4/8^3 for 2 hits (1/8 chance of triple, 3/8 chance of double, combined 50% chance of 2 hits or better)

 

Two dice with force point is almost always better than 3 dice without.

Your math is simply wrong.

2 dice with a focus averages 1.5 hits

3 dice naked average 1.5 hits

And that's with a focus let alone a weaker force token. 3 dice also give a higher possible cap.

2 dice with a force token average 1.438 damage so less then 3 naked dice.

Why lie?

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45 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Sure, Luke as a gunner should be in the game. Luke as a gunner who turns ships into 360 PWT shouldn't be in the game

I agree and therefore that’s not what i said.

I don’t agree with the current Luke design either, but Luke needs to be able to be equipped on the Falcon.

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17 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

2 dice with force token: 2x6/8x4/8 chance of double hit (48/64, or 3/4)

3 dice without force token: 4/8x4/8x4/8 for a triple hit, 3x4/8^3 for 2 hits (1/8 chance of triple, 3/8 chance of double, combined 50% chance of 2 hits or better)

 

Two dice with force point is almost always better than 3 dice without.

3 dice, you're correct - you have a 50% chance of 2 hits* or better. Rather than go into stats, you can either roll 0 hits, 1 hit, 2 hits or 3 hits. Given that the hit or not is a 50/50 chance, logically the odds of 0 and 3 are identical, and the odds of 1 and 2 are identical, hence 50% of rolls should be 2 hits or more.

 

2 dice with a  force point, you either need to roll hit/hit, hit/focus, or focus/hit. focus/focus doesn't count because a force token isn't as good as a focus token.

hit/hit comes up 1/4 of the time (1/2 x 1/2)

hit/focus and focus/hit come up 1/8 of the time each (1/2 x 1/4).

1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 = 1/2

 

which means @Rakaydos is technically correct - both have the same odds of '2 hits or more'

 

 

However

 

Some of the '2 hits or more' of the 3 dice attack are 3 hits, whilst the '2 hits or more' of the 2-dice attack can only ever be 2 hits . Which lets you hurt a target which can reliably get 2 evades (say, a focus/evade soontir or force/evade inquisitor), and is why the average damage with the 3 dice is a touch higher - 1.5 compared to 1.4375 with a force token and 2 dice.

 

 

* Counting crits as hits for simplicity before someone says anything

 

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On 5/22/2018 at 5:35 PM, GreenDragoon said:

Also answered:

"The dynamic cost allows exactly that."

That means they can make it expensive enough that a weaker player will still deems it a worthy investment, but a better player realizes that he can get more return from another ship.

In other words: If I want to make my dad play and bring him Luke in a Falcon it is more fun if I don't just wreck him by constantly arcdodging. That's why 360deg turrets have a reason to exist: they are easy to play. But if my dad then brings Luke in a Falcon to a tournament he won't beat better players because that single Han with a single offensive mod is too expensive to have anything worthwile next to him, and he won't deal enough damage on his own.

Won't that be a boring introduction to the game for your dad?  "Just do whatever you like and roll dice and see what happens"?

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2 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

Won't that be a boring introduction to the game for your dad?  "Just do whatever you like and roll dice and see what happens"?

I think you underestimate how difficult it can be to get into this game, there is so much going on! Somehow dice change now with range, and all these actions to choose from, and what, I flew over the obstacle and the kind of obstacle decides the effect, and so on.

Being able to get a shot despite all the stuff going on is encouraging.

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