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Firespray-32

Is Luke Gunner Actually That Good?

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1 minute ago, C3gorach said:

Well for me Luke Gunner not only disregards the 2.0 mission statement, but it reinforces it! Here is what I mean. ONLY f@cking Luke Skywalker, Jedi Hero of Legends can bring something quite similar to 1.0 PWT...
And he is just one unique upgrade card for a very specific and limited slot.
If it was a free 'action' it would have been perfect imo, but still it doesn't seem that broken or meta defining to me...
Anyway we only have to wait and see.

Dark Side Force Power: Rotate the arc of a ships turret at range 1-2. 

*evil chuckle

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4 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I'm betting you any small ship expansion Dash won't have a Gunner slot. 

Why would he not have one, though? If not, it would mainly be for balancing reasons, as The ship should probably have a dedicated gunner.

But yes, i think Luke on this ship might be even more powerful, even though it does not have access to boost anymore.

Edited by ForceM

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7 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Why would he not have one, though? If not, it would mainly be for balancing reasons, as The ship should probably have a dedicated gunner.

But yes, i think Luke on this ship might be even more powerful, even though it does not have access to boost anymore.

It’s plausible that the YY-2400 only has a crew position. Historically Dash has relied upon extreme repositioning (PTL boost + br) or token stacking (Rey).

Just from a defensive perspective 2 unmodded green dice is quite variable, so a YT-2400 would either need to rely on LG Gunner to modify arcs whilst taking  focus or use the inate Force ability to modify dice. 

2.0 Dash could take expert handling for white BR (some repositioning) and LG for some modifiers to dice? 

Rey is likely Resistance faction so she’s no longer an option. Leaving the half way house of LG.

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How's about this, not a perfect analogy but it's serviceable.

Pretend you want to create a version of Poker for the tabletop gamer crowd.  Each player would probably get a "power" that "breaks the rules" in a certain way.  Maybe the space lizards get to use 2's as wild cards.  The dwarf miners get to draw one extra card.  The goblins get twice as much money to start but must play with one card face-up on the table.  Whatever.  These abilities need to be balanced and fun which is not a trivial task.  

But, what if one player's power is to see all the other players' cards before they bet?  Well, now you've gone and destroyed the core ethos of what makes poker fun and worth playing.  It's not the fact that you "break the rules," all player abilities do that.  But certain player abilities can ruin the entire game.

Yes, that is an extreme example but I think Luke Gunner is similar.  He undercuts the fundamental source of fun and engagement that drives Xwing.  That's... not good.

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Not reading through this threat, but here is why I strongly dislike Luke gunner:

He only rewards you, without any real descisions involved. He is either a good effect (free flexible focus mod) or a very good effect (getting a shot you wouldn't have had) for every single turn. This means in order to have him not invalidate certain types of ships he needs to not be viable at all, which sucks for Luke Skywalker, protagonist of Star Wars.

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40 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

How's about this, not a perfect analogy but it's serviceable.

Can you explain why a single 360deg ship destroys the core ethos of the game? I genuinely do not understand how you came to that conclusion.

Xwing is (ideally...) primarily about arced ships, single actions and primary weapon attacks. But it was always, always, a part of the game that alternative options existed.

The problem for the past couple of waves was that these alternative, initially minor options became the major, primary ways to play the game.

If a single alternative option destroys the game for you, then what about secondary weapons? Linked actions? Shooting at range 0? Generally shooting with anything but a single primary arc?

Why is this one card different?

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It doesn't destroy the core ethos of the game.

However, it stands in direct contradiction of 2.0's stated design goals: shifting focus out of squadbuilding and back to the maneuver phase, back to dials as it were. A plethora of cards have been redesigned with this goal in mind to make them either charge limited or maneuver dependent.

Luke Gunner, if our information is accurate, flies in the face of this. Here we have a card the exists to recreate the loathed 360 turret mechanic that ignores dials, a mechanic that was specifically removed for 2.0.

He's not game breaking, he's no more impossible to deal with than the old turrets. But why does he exist in the first place? Why did they print him when he stands in contradiction to everything they're trying to achieve with this reboot?

Edited by Firespray-32

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@Firespray-32 I appreciate the reply

11 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

However, it stands in direct contradiction of 2.0's stated design goals: shifting focus out of squadbuilding and back to the maneuver phase, back to dials as it were.

Isn’t that still happening for the vast, vast majority? As far as I‘m aware, this GunnerLuke allows one single option, limited to (probably) few ships.

 

14 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

But why does he exist in the first place? Why did they print him when he stands in contradiction to everything they're trying to achieve with this reboot?

I still think the same: because he allows for an iconic entry into the game with a great set of training wheels. Being able to put Luke and Han both in the Falcon on the table is a great and easy start.

There is much to learn when starting out, and playing a ship with an arc is harder than a turret. We‘ve been recommending fat turrets or quad TLT to beginners for years, and it clearly works.

Now FFG did the same, but instead of faceless random EU ship #37 they get to start with Han and Luke in the Falcon! That‘s awesome!

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17 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

Luke Gunner, if our information is accurate, flies in the face of this. Here we have a card the exists to recreate the loathed 360 turret mechanic that ignores dials, a mechanic that was specifically removed for 2.0.

I always found that it wasn't the 360 turrets that flew in the face of being able to ignore dials - it was 360 turrets with stacked with passive modifications and repositioning specifically that did that.

Han/Luke will be a step up from a mobile arc turret for sure, but if you can block you can stop the boost, if you can jam you can stop the Falcon rerolls, if you can tractor then he can't reroll anything, if he gets ioned he can't boost or evade and so on. Those all feel like things under my control as an opponent that have all been buffed in the new version, along with (hopefully) Han's damage output getting taken down a notch or so. It's why I've climbed down from the panic station after that last reveal stream. 

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Isn’t that still happening for the vast, vast majority? As far as I‘m aware, this GunnerLuke allows one single option, limited to (probably) few ships.

It's not a matter of balance, it's a matter of design philosophy. Luke's design isn't some sort of crisis but it is utterly baffling.

 

I still think the same: because he allows for an iconic entry into the game with a great set of training wheels. Being able to put Luke and Han both in the Falcon on the table is a great and easy start.

Training wheels that mostly ignore the game's primary mechanic aren't good training wheels. At low levels the old PWTs reduced the game to a roll-off.

 

Quote

We‘ve been recommending fat turrets or quad TLT to beginners for years, and it clearly works.

That's a terrible idea.

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IMHO, setting a dial based on what you think your opponent will do and what you think your opponent thinks you will do is the core of X-wing.

"Whelp, I guessed completely wrong.  You totally outfoxed and outflew me.  Oh well, I get to shoot you anyway cuz turret."

If you don't see the problem, we are playing different games.

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8 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

Training wheels that mostly ignore the game's primary mechanic aren't good training wheels. At low levels the old PWTs reduced the game to a roll-off.

But they are. They allow to learn all about actions and obstacles and ranges and the different phases, about comparing dice and dealing damage. And while they allow all of that, it is never a problem to get a shot because of a turret.

8 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

If you don't see the problem, we are playing different games.

I have not flown turrets for two years unless when being the sparring partner. I don‘t know how many around here can say the same. I do not think that turrets are fun.

But I do accept that some people prefer them, and that especially beginners can profit much from using turrets.

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But they are. They allow to learn all about actions and obstacles and ranges and the different phases, about comparing dice and dealing damage. And while they allow all of that, it is never a problem to get a shot because of a turret.

And without learning the most important part of the game at all. It's like learning an FPS with an aimbot.

I doubt we're going to agree on this.

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2 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

And without learning the most important part of the game at all. It's like learning an FPS with an aimbot.

I doubt we're going to agree on this.

That's just... not true.  Unless it occupies the whole list, they'll have to think about a wingman's arc, their opponents' arcs, etc.  And if LG has the point premium that he should, they're eventually going to want to move toward a more point-efficient list as they get better at the game.

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7 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

That's just... not true.  Unless it occupies the whole list, they'll have to think about a wingman's arc, their opponents' arcs, etc.  And if LG has the point premium that he should, they're eventually going to want to move toward a more point-efficient list as they get better at the game.

Context.

In this case the context was teaching a new player the game with Quad TLT.

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Veteran Turret Gunner - After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus attack using a (arc) you did not attack from this round.

Veteran Tail Gunner - After you perform a primary (front arc) attack, you may perform a bonus (rear arc) attack.

Han Solo - During the Engagement Phase at initiative 7, you may perform a (mobile arc) attack.  You cannon attack from that (mobile arc) again this round.

Bossk - After you perform a primary attack that misses, if you are not stressed you must receive 1 stress token to perform a bonus primary attack against the same target.

Dengar - After you defend, if the attacker is in your firing arc, you may spend one (charge) token.  If you do, roll 1 attack dice unless the attack choses to remove one green token.  On a (hit) or (crit) result, the attacker suffers 1 (hit) damage.

I think pretty much all of these are more useful to skilled players than Luke.  If you're going to be spending 1/2 to 2/3 of your squad points on a single ship, it needs to pull it's weight in terms of damage output.  COmbine that with reduced survivability in 2nd edition from the changes to Evade, Reinforce etc and you're going to want to be able to throw as many attacks as you can before you're inevitably burned down.

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The worries are not what new people can or will do with the upgrade. It’s what veterans who know how to maximize list can do. 

 Han can take a bump, still shoot with some potential for mods, because of Luke. Then we start to leverage wingmen, and other upgrades. 

Rarely with any fat ship is it 1 game breaking upgrade. It’s a base upgrade, that along with a pilot ability, plus other stuff. 

Luke gunner in and of himself isn’t more than a free action cheat like we have seen before. It’s the potential he presents that’s the issue. Ala K4 on Dengar was.

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4 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Veteran Turret Gunner - After you perform a primary attack, you may perform a bonus attack using a (arc) you did not attack from this round.

Veteran Tail Gunner - After you perform a primary (front arc) attack, you may perform a bonus (rear arc) attack.

Han Solo - During the Engagement Phase at initiative 7, you may perform a (mobile arc) attack.  You cannon attack from that (mobile arc) again this round.

Bossk - After you perform a primary attack that misses, if you are not stressed you must receive 1 stress token to perform a bonus primary attack against the same target.

Dengar - After you defend, if the attacker is in your firing arc, you may spend one (charge) token.  If you do, roll 1 attack dice unless the attack choses to remove one green token.  On a (hit) or (crit) result, the attacker suffers 1 (hit) damage.

I think pretty much all of these are more useful to skilled players than Luke.  If you're going to be spending 1/2 to 2/3 of your squad points on a single ship, it needs to pull it's weight in terms of damage output.  COmbine that with reduced survivability in 2nd edition from the changes to Evade, Reinforce etc and you're going to want to be able to throw as many attacks as you can before you're inevitably burned down.

actually, none of them are

because of the arc construction of the YTs, the Veteran gunners (the "tail" one of which I believe is literally useless for yts because they don't get a printed aux arc) are just Special Ops training. You cannot double up shots on the same arc, making it both incredibly difficult to pull off and not terribly rewarding since you're just spreading damage at that point

Han Solo is the same. Because the YT only has mobile arcs, Han solo is just an I7 during combat most of the time. might be able to double tap with a primary arc, same as vet gunner, but the yts do not have this capability unless they still pack missiles. In which case, they can double-tap once

finally, Bossk and Dengar are not more useful to skilled yt players because they're not available to rebels

 nothing available to rebels (thus far) comes close to how borked Luke makes them

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I must highly disagree then

vet turret gunner is far too situational and the benefit far too minimal to see use on a yt unless it's exceptionally cheap

and the scum options don't have higher upsides than Luke because they are not competing with Luke. Now if Bossk were rebel, and cost at most a third as much as Luke, we might have a decision to make. Unfortunately, regardless of how points shake out, we do not

People really underestimate always having the shot you want, especially if they think a spec ops training can even begin to compete with it 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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You can disagree all you want fickle, you're still wrong.  Myopically limiting the discussion to one ship or faction doesn't help your case either, because Luke the Upgrade doesn't exist in a vacuum.  :lol:

Veteran Turret Gunner, Veteran Tail Gunner and Han Solo all allow for bonus attacks, which Luke does not.  In terms of sheer damage output, their upside is potentially double that of Luke, or as near as.  Bossk allows for a bonus attack if you missed the first - insurance against whiffing, which puts his usefulness about on par with Luke.

Luke's major benefit - using a force token to rotate arc - will only come into play if you're not capable of getting a target in arc in the first place, which most skilled players should be able to manage on a consistent enough basis.  At which point Luke becomes little more than a passive modifier, or a defense against blocking, stress, ion or other counterplay.  His damage output however will never increase.  Talented players will be able to leverage the additional damage potential of the other Gunner upgrades and benefit more from it than they will Luke's insurance.

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