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Gallanteer

Meta is dead, long live the Meta

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49 minutes ago, Larky Bobble said:

Or there are those that want Han and Luke to have a unique playstyle together that is powerful, and FFG have fulfilled that need. Call it easy level for kids, but I have no problem with it in such a limited, and playable, manner. Forego your mods for a swingy, probably expensive, turret. Cool! Choice is what the game is built on.

To pretend that the turret is as 360 and modifiable as before is disengenuous. It is now a choice.

Again, I understand what you’re saying, but I find your statements and conclusions on the discussed ‘Luke Turret’ theory completely indefensible.

if one can rotate their ship’s turret 90 degrees with Luke at the beginning of the combat phase with complete knowledge of the boardstate, one doesn’t have to “pretend” that the turret is a 360, for it EFFECTIVELY IS. In addition, I also take issue with it being “a choice.” If Luke works the way it is theorized by the knowledge we have, it’s NOT a choice at all, for it will be the only ship that breaks the game’s rules on ‘fire duty cycle’ or whatever you want to call it. It’s by very definition BROKEN upon release.

Is this rocket science?!? Guess so....

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Also, I don't understand why wanting "Han and Luke to have a unique playstyle together that is powerful" = the same mechanic from 1.0 that the designers explicitly said they were trying to get away from

there is absolutely nothing unique about copying an old mechanic that actively reduces player participation when there are literally infinite other things Luke gunner could have done to make the game more interesting.

guys, you all deserve better. We all deserve better

 

but I guess the designers used up all their mojo designing an awesome X-wing Luke with an interesting suite of force powers, so they could only serve us this derivative, uninspired slop for his gunner version

Edited by ficklegreendice

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the problem is design philosophy. Ofc you can adjust the cost so isn't much broken.


But really? You go and made yt1300 and yt2400 dual mobile arcs, and you go and make a crew/gunner that let it change FOR FREE (yeah, a force token, that recharge every turn), at the START of combat phase.

 

really, i want to say F*** you. what are you using?

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6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

meta is indeed not set in stone

only Han w/Luke gunner is concerning because they're bringing back 1.0 mechanics in the very worst possible way, especially after the designers seemed to have addressed literally every other element from 1.0 

Oh no, 1 ship per game will have some manner of perfect info, and will have to pay out the nose to get it. This is clearly the end of 2E.

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3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

This fear of a return if Fat Han with Luke gunner is groundless.  What was it about Fat Han that was miserable?  The ability to Boost and/or BR away to avoid most shots, have C-3PO to avoid one good shot, and the ability to fire modded dice 360.

With new set up you can either Boost or BR, but then can't modify your attacks.  Oh, you can if Han is near an obstacle, but only 1 die and only if at R1.  If you know Han is wanting to be near obstacles, it's going to be easy to predict him.  It's not going to be possible to be near obstacles every time.  To think he's going to be unpredictable with modded dice is silly.

Han is still just shooting 3 red dice and probably unmodified half the time.  That's not so bad.  There are pilots like Iden in Tie that can block all damage from one attack.  Even a Tie Fighter has a good chance of not being one shot from Han if he takes a Focus or Evade.

Han is also easy to block.  Stick one Tie Fighter out in front and you can have an easy time blocking him each round.  Once you do it, it's pretty easy to get to a spot that the big base will hit.  Even Tie Fighters can knock Han down fast when they know where he will be and with no green tokens.

The new Han won't be able to avoid your firing arcs like before and he can't avoid your damage like before.  Sure, he will always have a shot, but so will you.  

A very diplomatic way of saying, "don't play like garbage." ?

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2 hours ago, That One Guy said:

Honestly, after watching some of the demo games and the utter inability for the TIEs to cause meaningful damage to Luke, I'm way more afraid of standard TIEs vs. Han and Luke in their own ships than the two of them together...

In fairness, some of the Imperial flying in those streams... left something to be desired. 

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4 minutes ago, acegard said:

A very diplomatic way of saying, "don't play like garbage." ?

Yeah....

I mean, you can still get it in arc.  That's the biggie.  It doesn't have super defense.  It can't super modify it's shots.  Sure, it will shoot every turn, but are those shots as effective?  Are you doing damage on your turn? Are there other ways to beat it?

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8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Yeah....

I mean, you can still get it in arc.  That's the biggie.  It doesn't have super defense.  It can't super modify it's shots.  Sure, it will shoot every turn, but are those shots as effective?  Are you doing damage on your turn? Are there other ways to beat it?

Even the old Fat Han did have some trouble against swarms. Especially now that boost is red, and his 1-turns are gone, honestly I wonder if he won't need that new Luke to keep him from having serious trouble against lists that bring a blocker or two.

Edited by acegard

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1 minute ago, acegard said:

Even the old Fat Han did have some trouble against swarms. Especially now that boost is red, and his 1-turns are gone, honestly I think he will need that new Luke to keep him from having serious trouble against lists that bring a blocker or two.

The ability to fire 360 before and then reroll with Han was crazy.  Throw in Gunner and you got another shot with another reroll.  I mean, just getting his one attack with maybe a Focus or TL is so far removed from previous power level.

That's not even considering his old defensive abilities vs lack of them on v2.

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All this is speculation of course until we understand points and possible upgrades per ship.

If FFG are clever they could make points variable. What if Luke on Han Solo piloted Falcon is actually given a higher price than Luke on an Outer Rim Smuggler? Just because they have static prices in 1ED doesn't mean it'll be the same on 2ED. What if having Luke, Han and Falcon means the YT1300 loses a Torpedo slot for example. These are all ways the App could control the game more.

And before people shoot me down, its also a way that the App stays more relevant than 3rd party versions once all the static upgrade slots and prices are known.

All of this will mean Meta could be less prevelant and people are a bit more creative with their builds rather than taking 'the standard Y-wing stress hog' etc.

Of course this is speculation too, but I hope FFG have realised this possibility with the App (although I doubt it).

Edited by Gallanteer

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8 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

 

 

I see this as the go-too for those wanting to net deck the game and break it.

There is one hope that we can hold onto: FFG isn't THIS stupid, they know what's broken in 1.0 and they are not going down that road again. Turrets are the top of the list. They'd never go down this road. There must be something that removes this apparent broken card; we just don't know it yet.

It could be point costs: Han+Luke gunner+ Falcon title comes out to like 175 points, and you’re left with taking maybe a generic Z. 

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11 hours ago, Gallanteer said:

You cannot judge any Meta as valid from 1st Ed because of points, cards and rules changes.

[...]

Metas will emerge but will take longer. 

Cannot help but feel the opposite. I hope you're right, but have to point out just how much the experience of the players has sharpened perception of X-Wings game mechanics and combos compared to the early 1.0.

Of course approximations of current/ past meta-defining lists won't work the same as we're used to. Of course points costs, mechanics and so on will be different, but not drastically slow. 

If anything, I expect the meta to (r)evolve even faster than ever before. This community is excellent in processing large amounts of data and adapting to the results. The fact that there are approximations of those old metas means we've got comparisons that will make it easier to gaige 2.0 quickly. Whether they'll work or not will be tested almost immediately, thus speeding up meta definition.

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In regards to Luke gunner and a new 'Fat Han' (Fat Han 2: The Fattening?)...

We still don't know what the points of these things will be.  Luke could be so expensive given his ability that a Han + Luke (gunner) Falcon build becomes a single ship list... or a single ship with a very cheap wingman

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22 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

 

 

I see this as the go-too for those wanting to net deck the game and break it.

There is one hope that we can hold onto: FFG isn't THIS stupid, they know what's broken in 1.0 and they are not going down that road again. Turrets are the top of the list. They'd never go down this road. There must be something that removes this apparent broken card; we just don't know it yet.

This is clearly not netlisting, even if it turns out to be that strong, since every SW fan will probably want to try out Han with luke gunner at some time.

You also don’t need to be a genius to figure out the combo potential there, just by reading the cards.

Depending on the YT-2400’s cost, Luke might also be even better on that, since it has a whooping 4 attack dice at R2-3 and 3 at R1. It just can’t have boist, but has barrel roll.

Then again, we don’t know the point cost of all this and it might turn out to be too expensive to work.

Edited by ForceM

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8 minutes ago, ForceM said:

His is clearly not netlisting, even if it turns out to be that strong, since every SW fan will probably want to try out Han witt luke gunner at some time.

You also don’t need to be a genius to figure out the combo potential there, just by reading the cards.

Depending on the YT-2400’s cost, Luke might also be even better on that, since it has a whooping 4 attack dice at R2-3 and 3 at R1. It just can’t have boist, but has barrel roll.

Then again, we don’t know the point cost of all this and it might turn out to be too expensive to work.

This is what has me baffled.

if we, the idiots, can see this busted card, why can’t FFG? Well obviously they can, and want it. Fun to fly? Yes? Fluff? Yes! Good for the game? NO. Regardless the price. No 1.0 busted **** in 2.0. Let’s bust it in new ways, not drag corpses with us into nirvana. 

Edited by clanofwolves

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I am certain there will be some kind of meta establishing after some time, but i still doubt that they will allow anything to become utterly dominant again, and if they do they can fix it pretty easily after a few more weeks.

Mistakes will of course still still be made, but i see no reason, not even the quite concerning Han/Luke combo, to really think we will have really overpowered stuff over long periods ever again.

Unless FFG somehow gets bought up by Disney... oh wait... forget that!

Unless FFG somehow gets bought up by GW! ?

Edited by ForceM

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I'm looking at the Dace Bonearm thread.  If you get one Ion token on a ship...like Han....then you can jack them up to be fully Ionized.  How easy would it be to take down Fat Han with this?  Ionized him and you know where he is.  Get a lot if ships in R1.  Maybe he is away from an asteroid.  Han can only Focus with his one Evade.   That's going to be pretty easy counter 

My point is, we don't know what else there is. Being able to always get a shot isn't the end all be all if the game.   Han does not have all that defense.  He cannot be near an asteroid all game.  His shots do not hit as hard as they used to.  The Falcon has one green die and will MAYBE Boost somewhere.  It isn't like you can't predict where he will gi, especially if you think it will be nearer to the next asteroid.

Many seem to think this is going to be OP upon release.  I don't think it's giving you an insane amount.  Han will still be shot at and those shots will hurt.  There will be tools to take him down.  Ionization is one.

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39 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'm looking at the Dace Bonearm thread.  If you get one Ion token on a ship...like Han....then you can jack them up to be fully Ionized.  How easy would it be to take down Fat Han with this?  Ionized him and you know where he is.  Get a lot if ships in R1.  Maybe he is away from an asteroid.  Han can only Focus with his one Evade.   That's going to be pretty easy counter 

My point is, we don't know what else there is. Being able to always get a shot isn't the end all be all if the game.   Han does not have all that defense.  He cannot be near an asteroid all game.  His shots do not hit as hard as they used to.  The Falcon has one green die and will MAYBE Boost somewhere.  It isn't like you can't predict where he will gi, especially if you think it will be nearer to the next asteroid.

Many seem to think this is going to be OP upon release.  I don't think it's giving you an insane amount.  Han will still be shot at and those shots will hurt.  There will be tools to take him down.  Ionization is one.

You know that Ionizing now gives a blue maneuver. Meaning that even if he is stressed, he will be able to boost away afterwards. Sure the HWK has a boost itself now, but it’s still hard to keep up and predict the direction of him boosting, especially since you will need to get  Han into your mobile arc. AND you can only do it every 3 turns. You could buy another, faster ion ship as Dace does not require to do it himself, but still that’s a wonky counter at best.

But i am not saying that there is no counter. I think that it will be much more open listbuilding, especially at the beginning. And even separating Factions is not contrary to that. Sure it limits some choices, but then on the other hand it restricts some combos and power levels, so « freak » lists stand more of a chance.

Edited by ForceM

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3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Incorrect.

Ionising gives a blue manoeuvre, but also limits your actions to only focus after performing it.

Ah yeah i heard that. Still you can only do the Bonearm trick every 3 turns. Unless your list can kill Han in one turn and is in striking distance when you ionize him, it’s going to be hard.

Or you might just need multiple sources of ion all the time.

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ion by itself is in no way shape or form a han counter, but shutting off his boost is basically key to not having him trivially arc-dodge you

so the effect of ion itself is fine, it's just actually getting 3 tokens on the guy that's a problem (yay Dace!)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I dont think any of the fat turrets will be broken on release. Even if they had an old school 360 arc the in game tactics used to beat that stuff before will just out right work better in 2.0. 

You wont need to take specific card combos hand out blinded pilots or run around with auto thrusters and a token stack or hide behind palp or regen or a bigger fatter turret.

All you gotta do is focus fire, force rotations, stay at Range when possible, block, use rocks right, and bring that space whale down. 

Suggest that people proxy some things before freaking out to much about Luke Crew and rotatable arcs. Its really not that great on paper "yet". Even if its 0 points there will be significantly more counterplay available and most importantly doing damage will be possible.

Now if they print some cards that bring us back to no consequences hyper defensive free passive mods free actions wing then yea panic!! 

But for now, maybe just put some of those spoiled cards on the table against one of the demo lists and see how things go?

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