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Gallanteer

Meta is dead, long live the Meta

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For everyone banging on about how 2nd Ed will affect the Meta, I have have a few points to mention.

You cannot judge any Meta as valid from 1st Ed because of points, cards and rules changes.

At launch there will be no Meta, people will be trying out new combos based on the multitude of new options available at launch. This will make games much more interesting instead of just knowing how certain builds will defeat other builds.

Metas will emerge but will take longer. Any new game with a small number of options builds a meta quickly and evolves as new expansions are released. 2nd Ed is launching with such a huge selection in the conv kits that it will take quite a while for these to be identified.

Edited by Gallanteer

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You can probably expect early 2.0 meta to focus around things that were already known as being pretty good in 1.0 and still at least seem pretty good initially in 2.0 (fat turrets, tie swarms, etc), until more creative/motivated individuals start putting up wins with less conventional builds.

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17 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

For everyone banging on about how 2nd Ed will affect the Meta, I have have a few points to mention.

You cannot judge any Meta as valid from 1st Ed because of points, cards and rules changes.

At launch there will be no Meta, people will be trying out new combos based on the multitude of new options available at launch. This will make games much more interesting instead of just knowing how certain builds will defeat other builds.

Metas will emerge but will take longer. Any new game with a small number of options builds a meta quickly and evolves as new expansions are released. 2nd Ed is launching with such a huge selection in the conv kits that it will take quite a while for these to be identified.

This is certainly true.

Of course there will be no established meta like now. And it won’t be a growing meta like when wave after wave in 1.0 came out.

But then as they will spoil most or everything until 2.0 comes out, it will probably be like always. Vassal will have everything before release and we will know 90% of the most efficient combos right away.

The hope i have for a difference is the point cost adjustments, that will permit this « meta » to bemuch more flexible and have some surprises for us.

Edited by ForceM

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2 minutes ago, Effenhoog said:

You can probably expect early 2.0 meta to focus around things that were already known as being pretty good in 1.0 and still at least seem pretty good initially in 2.0 (fat turrets, tie swarms, etc), until more creative/motivated individuals start putting up wins with less conventional builds.

Only if those combinations are still allowed in terms of possible upgrades and points they might now be worth.

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4 minutes ago, ForceM said:

This is certainly true, but so ambivalent that i don’t see a real point made.

Of course there will be bo established meta like now. And it won’t be a growing meta like when wave after wave in 1.0 came out.

But then as they will spoil most or everything until 2.0 comes out, it will probably be like always. Vassal will have everything before release and we will know 90% of the most efficient combos right away.

The hope i have for a difference is the point cost adjustments, that will permit this « meta » to bemuch more flexible and have some surprises for us.

The point I was trying to make is that people might feel a little bit more free to experiment whilst competing rather than lots of comments I see along the lines of 'no point flying that build because its not the meta in my area'.

Its never really bothered me as I'm predominantly a casual player, but if it helps the more competitive players break free of their local meta shackles that can only be good for the game and reminder you that it is meant to be fun and not just competitive.

Edited by Gallanteer

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1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

meta is indeed not set in stone

only Han w/Luke gunner is concerning because they're bringing back 1.0 mechanics in the very worst possible way, especially after the designers seemed to have addressed literally every other element from 1.0 

Yeah i was also concerned about this, because it essentially gives you a 360 turret back. And a very potent one on a really good large chassis with boost...

Return of Fat Han?!?

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Just now, ficklegreendice said:

meta is indeed not set in stone

only Han w/Luke gunner is concerning because they're bringing back 1.0 mechanics in the very worst possible way, especially after the designers seemed to have addressed literally every other element from 1.0 

While I appreciate your concern for Luke gunner... the WORST possible way would be introducing a 360 degree turret on a new ship by making it a ship ability :P

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3 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

The point I was trying to make is that people might feel a little bit more free to experiment whilst competing rather than lots of comments I see along the lines of 'no point flying that build because its not the meta in my area'.

Sorry i edited my reply right away because it came out way more snappy than intended...

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22 minutes ago, RedHotDice said:

The Meta in 2.0 is clear: Fat Han+Luke(crew) will dominate, set dial to 3 turn and profit.

 

7 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Return of Fat Han!

 

I see this as the go-too for those wanting to net deck the game and break it.

There is one hope that we can hold onto: FFG isn't THIS stupid, they know what's broken in 1.0 and they are not going down that road again. Turrets are the top of the list. They'd never go down this road. There must be something that removes this apparent broken card; we just don't know it yet.

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Hopefully it´ ll be a TIC TAC TOE in that swarms will shut down that Han build as he won´ t be able to take the fire, even running.

At the end of the day though, Meta is dead. If Fat Han with Luke dominates, bump the price of Luke on Han until it doesn´ t... Anything OP will be identified and repriced. So Meta dies.

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47 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

At launch there will be no Meta, people will be trying out new combos based on the multitude of new options available at launch. T

There is always a meta, even if it's what people expect to be good, what people re excited about running, etc.

And by the time we got to launch, there will have been people with the whole game in hand for a month (due to the GenCon early release) so you'd better believe there will be a meta.

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38 minutes ago, ForceM said:

This is certainly true.

Of course there will be no established meta like now. And it won’t be a growing meta like when wave after wave in 1.0 came out.

But then as they will spoil most or everything until 2.0 comes out, it will probably be like always. Vassal will have everything before release and we will know 90% of the most efficient combos right away.

The hope i have for a difference is the point cost adjustments, that will permit this « meta » to bemuch more flexible and have some surprises for us.

Not just Vassal.  With the limited release at GenCon, the app will have to be available and working by then, giving us all a chance to mess around in 2.0 before the September general release.

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28 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I see this as the go-too for those wanting to net deck the game and break it.

There is one hope that we can hold onto: FFG isn't THIS stupid, they know what's broken in 1.0 and they are not going down that road again

Allow me to quote from a certain book:

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."

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Very much as above

The polish spoils for Luke gunner is the only thing that shook my optisim for 2.0, as it is the only time FFG has created something so inexplicably stupid and contrary to their own design decisions

Sure, I believe the app is great for balance the myriad ships out there, but you just can't fix stupid no matter how overpriced you make it 

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13 minutes ago, Audio Weasel said:

Not just Vassal.  With the limited release at GenCon, the app will have to be available and working by then, giving us all a chance to mess around in 2.0 before the September general release.

The difference here is.....

The majority of XW players will not be at Gencon and I'm guessing even less use the Vassal engine.

Therefore my original statement was true, from a certain point of view (couldn't resist it).

Edited by Gallanteer

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I put this in a different thread but it feels better placed here --

With the ability to change points dynamically --do you think FFG will try to run a cycle of whats popular or attempt to balance *everything*?  No matter what happens, people are going to run the popular lists.  What will that look like? What will get ignored?  Do you let those lists be viable for a short time, then shake them up and point players in different directions?  Does that keep the game fresh? Or infuriating?

 

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popular can be ignored, imo

there will always be a "best". It is unavoidable...it is your DESTINY

 

but as long as "best" isn't "torp scouts" or "miranda" level of utter curbstomping dominance, we're going to be aokay. The gap between what's best and what's good should be as narrow as possible, and so long as it is not insurmountable then the game will be perfectly fine

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12 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

The difference here is.....

The majority of XW players will not be at Gencon and I'm guessing even less use the Vassal engine.

Therefore my original statement was true, from a certain point of view (couldn't resist it). 

I'm however pretty sure that, between being at Gencon (in person or via soembody in their play group), using Vassal and just having somebody in their play group (even themselves) find the inevitable post Gencon full rules breakdown and going 'hey guys, let's give 2.0 a try' I'm pretty sure a pretty significant portion of the community will be exposed to 2.0 before the official launch.

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17 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

The difference here is.....

The majority of XW players will not be at Gencon and I'm guessing even less use the Vassal engine.

Therefore my original statement was true, from a certain point of view (couldn't resist it).

If even 1 person plays at gencon, there's a meta

If, as expected, a couple of hundred do and immediately leak every single rule and card onto the internet (assuming that hasn't happened before then anyway), there's DEFINITELY a meta.

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7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

popular can be ignored, imo

there will always be a "best". It is unavoidable...it is your DESTINY

 

but as long as "best" isn't "torp scouts" or "miranda" level of utter curbstomping dominance, we're going to be aokay. The gap between what's best and what's good should be as narrow as possible, and so long as it is not insurmountable then the game will be perfectly fine

This.

If Fat Han/Gunner Luke is a really good list, but you can beat it with good flying and there are also some list archetypes it will struggle against, then the game's in a good place.

If it's so strong that every other list must take seismics specifically to counter Han or die a fiery death, then something will need to change (and, good news, the devs have actually given themselves multiple means to make adjustments in 2.0).

Edited by nexttwelveexits

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4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I'm however pretty sure that, between being at Gencon (in person or via soembody in their play group), using Vassal and just having somebody in their play group (even themselves) find the inevitable post Gencon full rules breakdown and going 'hey guys, let's give 2.0 a try' I'm pretty sure a pretty significant portion of the community will be exposed to 2.0 before the official launch.

I can almost guarantee that even though the kits will be available at GenCon, the new App to build squads won't come out till the official launch. You can try the game and new cards but only with the prebuilt build cards and the threat level thingy. Therefore you won't be able to get ahead of everyone else.

....and therefore no Meta.

Edited by Gallanteer

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