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Marinealver

2.0 Design Space Discussion: Blue Actions

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12 hours ago, NotBatman said:

If stressed ships can take a special action that eliminates stress, and that's the only action that they can take, unless the action was super detrimental ("Push 1 Crew Member Out The Airlock") then it wouldn't be a choice, you would just ALWAYS do that and never have to worry about gaining stress, because you'll just remove it anyway.

Be just as well to have an ability that automatically removes one stress token at the end of the round.

Or am I missing something obvious...?

Again we are discussing design options as it could be a new action that is completely detrimental. For example you could make a new action that is blue dificulty and it gives your ship a weapons disabled token. That is it, you get a weapon disabled but it removes stress. The other idea is that ion damage can disable blue actions.

9 hours ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Ion locking you into blue maneuver and locking you out of blue action allowing.... blah blah blah.

 

 Having a change that requires altering shown cards to make them do opposite effects on maneuvers and actions with the same token? More complexity doesn't necessarily equal more fun. See harpoons.

Harpoon missiles were complex because that was the current design demands and the meta of X-wing at that time. But I agree, I was never a fan of condition cards because it was two cards for one upgrade. However we are not talking about changing any cards (which I am vehemently against such things). We are only talking about a new action difficulty one that can be taken when stressed and removes stress. We are not limited to the same action set or to all the ships currently released for 1st edition. There will be no cards changed.

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My main problem is that any blue action would allow a ship to behave like a ship with Advanced Sensors performing a green maneuver does right now- with the notable difference that your choice of maneuver would be less restricted on any ship than even the current TiE Silencer. 

Allowing a ship to shed stress with an action also makes ships a lot too nimble on consecutive turns, as back-to-back red maneuvres are then possible, basically allowing for a more flexible Defender-like white 4k. What is lost in action flexibility is gained in maneuverability, as an essentially infinite Adrenaline Rush turns your entire maneuver dial white. 

If the blue action is also a dice mod, this comparison is even more true- and easily visible as potentially Meta defining, maybe even locking a large part of other design spaces. If I can basically completely ignore the difficulty of any given maneuver, why would I fly anything else?

Add to that that there are a whole host of cards can mod dice results as well, and you can see what kind of headaches this mechanics could cause- not to mention the possible power creep with any further releases. 

That being said, I think there are two possibilities to introduce blue actions into the game without closing more design spaces as you open:

a) Let any blue action a a ship has on its frame be very detrimental. This way, it forces a choice. There's a lot of coordinate in 2.0 already, so even a "shed stress, do nothing else" action is potentially increasing the threat potential of a ship massively.

b) Turn an action blue via a massively expensive card. This may cause a pre-nerf Palpatine effect, but it allows for balance by point cost and slot requirement. 

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48 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Again we are discussing design options as it could be a new action that is completely detrimental. For example you could make a new action that is blue dificulty and it gives your ship a weapons disabled token. That is it, you get a weapon disabled but it removes stress. The other idea is that ion damage can disable blue actions.

Harpoon missiles were complex because that was the current design demands and the meta of X-wing at that time. But I agree, I was never a fan of condition cards because it was two cards for one upgrade. However we are not talking about changing any cards (which I am vehemently against such things). We are only talking about a new action difficulty one that can be taken when stressed and removes stress. We are not limited to the same action set or to all the ships currently released for 1st edition. There will be no cards changed.

I think a new, inferior action is unlikely. An effort was made to standardize actions, and further diversify ships with the same actions via action chains.

I really doubt we are going to see more actions introduced any time soon, as the designspace is now larger by about a factor of magnitude.

 

However, blue actions I think will be present, and the most likely solution is: Actions that you can perform, even while stressed.

The designspace: A ship so great at something, it can do it regardless of their stress levels.

My theory is that something like this will be represented by tech slots.

For example:

Primed thrusters

Requirement: White barrel roll

Effect: Blue barrel roll

 

Equipping it means, you can always perform barrel rolls, regardless of your stress levels.

 

 

Also, if the CIS is ever introduced as a faction, I can see more advanced droid fighters having access to a blue calculate action naturally.

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5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

My theory is that something like this will be represented by tech slots.

For example:

Primed thrusters

Requirement: White barrel roll

Effect: Blue barrel roll

 

Equipping it means, you can always perform barrel rolls, regardless of your stress levels.

 

I think my preference would be for that card to just say "May perform BR when stressed".  The blue icon doesn't really convey the concept well.  Blue conveys after you do this, remove a stress.  Having blue mean two different things is just convolution of the iconography.

 

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7 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Again we are discussing design options as it could be a new action that is completely detrimental. For example you could make a new action that is blue dificulty and it gives your ship a weapons disabled token. That is it, you get a weapon disabled but it removes stress. The other idea is that ion damage can disable blue actions.

Harpoon missiles were complex because that was the current design demands and the meta of X-wing at that time. But I agree, I was never a fan of condition cards because it was two cards for one upgrade. However we are not talking about changing any cards (which I am vehemently against such things). We are only talking about a new action difficulty one that can be taken when stressed and removes stress. We are not limited to the same action set or to all the ships currently released for 1st edition. There will be no cards changed.

You say it's not changing any card but we've seen the ion which does not reference blue actions. Adding blue actions, you suggested a new ion mechanic. That would require changing cards that are already done through errata or condition. So don't tell me you're against changing cards when you suggested changing a card.

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I don't see how adding a new type of action (one that disregards the rules of actions, i.e. can't preform while stressed) aids to the game. 

For one it totally nullifies your opponent inflicting stress on you, and if you want to increase actions you can, instead have linked white actions. I just don't see how this helps the overall game and there are decent alternatives. 

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3 hours ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

You say it's not changing any card but we've seen the ion which does not reference blue actions. Adding blue actions, you suggested a new ion mechanic. That would require changing cards that are already done through errata or condition. So don't tell me you're against changing cards when you suggested changing a card.:huh:

Ion Damage, which rules are general rules, not printed on cards. There is a difference.

This is more of the decloaking errata. Heck even ion tokens were not in the core rule book they were a rule supplement. You are saying this will change a card, but what upgrade/pilot card says after giving one ion token on a small ship makes it do a blue straight 1 maneuver, 2 for medium base ships, and 3 for large base ships? That is just too much text on a card. I don't know what change of card you are referring to because what you are describing is not a component card. 

There will be more rules and addendum added in once the conversion is complete and more ships are introduced to 2.0. So being against any change or addition to the common rules what-so-ever is not compatible to any customizable miniatures game. 

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