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MajorJuggler

ISO confirmation: can you spend multiple calculate tokens at once?

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Am going to go do new action economy math for IG88s that get 2 calculate tokens, and would like confirmation that you can spend multiple calculate tokens in a single dice mod stage, to modify multiple eyeballs. A specific verifiable citation would be helpful, to get confirmation before I start writing code that might be redundant.

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Then look through all the media... and find it.

or take my word for it that they can, because I am not digging through all the media for you.

 

Edit: that was a mean response i am sorry. Should act more civil. (left it so people know i am an ***)

Edited by Icelom

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1 hour ago, streamdragon said:

so... it is basically like a Force token for Droids, who lose the (generally superior) Focus action for it?

I am not yet sure if the focus is superior in every case. 

Calculate lets you change one result, so in the case that there are several eyes in one roll, focus is superior. 

I understood that the devs want to limit token stacking, but there is a way for calculate - see the ig88s, especially A - to stack. 

I assume that it is easier to get multiple calculate tokens than to get multiple focus tokens. I may be wrong here (hello recon specialist). You can spend your calculates on different rolls, which would then be superior to focus if you roll one eye on each roll. 

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1 hour ago, flooze said:

I am not yet sure if the focus is superior in every case. 

Calculate lets you change one result, so in the case that there are several eyes in one roll, focus is superior. 

I understood that the devs want to limit token stacking, but there is a way for calculate - see the ig88s, especially A - to stack. 

I assume that it is easier to get multiple calculate tokens than to get multiple focus tokens. I may be wrong here (hello recon specialist). You can spend your calculates on different rolls, which would then be superior to focus if you roll one eye on each roll. 

I did say "generally superior".  Then again, there is nothing that they've shown us for non-IG droid pilots (see: Guri, 4-Lom) to get more than 1 calculate token, which makes them worse than Focus except in the exact circumstance of rolling 1 eyeball, in which case you break even.  Not a great look.

 

IG-88A is a net neutral.  You transfer the token, so they have to 1) be in range, 2) have the calculate action and 3) you have to NOT need the token on IG-88A.  There is literally 0 times I would not want to replace "Calculate" with "Focus" in any card that shows "Calculate" so far.  It is an inherently weaker action.  It's weaker than Force even, since at least Force 1) doesn't require an action to get and 2) is usually on top of having Focus as an available action.

 

Basically, unless Calculate lets you do something seriously great (maybe like the old EPT instead of turning Eyeballs to Hits you turn them to Crits?), it is completely weaker than a standard Focus.  I'm hoping FFG is smart enough to realize that.  Then again, they actually nerfed Dace it seems, so who knows at this point.

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I'm curious how _much_ weaker Calculate is than Focus. Which, yes, is the point of the maths that you're doing. :)

One thing I _love_ about the change: since ion tokens only let you take a focus action- and droids don't have the focus action on their bars, Ion tokens will hurt droids more than organics. That's a nice bit of theme meeting mechanics. 

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Ok guys, here is why calculate is good on an IG-88.  Because of the enhanced droid brain, when IG-88 does a calculate action, he gets 2 calculate tokens.  Take this scenario: IG-88 gets shot at range 2 and then fires back (a simple scenario).

The odds of rolling 3 eyeballs on defense = 2*2*2/8/8/8 = 1.5%

So in 1.5% of the cases, 2 calculate tokens cannot do as good of a job as a focus token.  Every other case is either:

A) A case where those 2 calculate tokens spent on defense will provide the same result as a focus token (nothing lost, nothing gained)

B) A case where one of those calculate token could be spent for defense and the other for offense

C) No token was required because of luck.

You can keep expanding scenarios and have the IG-88 split its calculate tokens across multiple defensive rolls or multiple offensive rolls (thanks to IG-88B).  Because of having a fully modded attack is harder (target lock and focus), being able to split up modification to dice is very powerful.

 

The devs also said that 3 IG-88 was possible, so with IG-88 A in the mix, you can have up to 2 IG-88 transfer tokens to another that is in danger (or used its action to gain an evade) or to compensate for stress.  There are a lot of options out there.

 

In the case of IG-88, you can think of calculate as a "focus that is split up in multiple pieces".  It's complex and will require a lot of math, which is probably why MajorJuggler is interested in it ;)

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I'm curious how _much_ weaker Calculate is than Focus. Which, yes, is the point of the maths that you're doing. :)

One thing I _love_ about the change: since ion tokens only let you take a focus action- and droids don't have the focus action on their bars, Ion tokens will hurt droids more than organics. That's a nice bit of theme meeting mechanics. 

Existing 1E online dice simulators will typically have effects which are pretty similar.  Luke's pilot ability for defense, and for offense RAC Pilot/Ezra Crew/Proton Torpedos all do the same thing, if you ignore the "crit" aspect.

Cool catch on the ion mechanics.  That is neat.

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19 minutes ago, streamdragon said:

wait, really?  really?

Yeah, it's been said a few times on stream. 

And that's a nice way to make force users even more different- AFAIK, ion tokens do nothing to force regen. Luke will still be able to get a focus action _and_ a force token. 

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15 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

Yeah, it's been said a few times on stream. 

And that's a nice way to make force users even more different- AFAIK, ion tokens do nothing to force regen. Luke will still be able to get a focus action _and_ a force token. 

All I know is Calculate better be effin amazing, or droid ships are basically trash.

 

And Ion doesn't really change how good Force users are.  They're still better than non force users.  This mostly just hurts droid ships.  All ... 6 of them.  Like, why bother designing this mechanic.  So far it seems like a stellar example of "why fluff should not influence mechanics".

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9 minutes ago, streamdragon said:

All I know is Calculate better be effin amazing, or droid ships are basically trash.

 

And Ion doesn't really change how good Force users are.  They're still better than non force users.  This mostly just hurts droid ships.  All ... 6 of them.  Like, why bother designing this mechanic.  So far it seems like a stellar example of "why fluff should not influence mechanics".

It probably is or will be considered in the pricing, and is something that can be built around.  If you know that the ship has calculate instead of focus, then you can maybe play around more with stronger pilot abilities or whatever.  It's something to maybe keep an eye on, but not really something to worry about at this stage.

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23 minutes ago, streamdragon said:

And Ion doesn't really change how good Force users are.  They're still better than non force users.  This mostly just hurts droid ships.  All ... 6 of them.  Like, why bother designing this mechanic.  So far it seems like a stellar example of "why fluff should not influence mechanics".

Short sighted, you are.

Consider future Seperatist faction, you did not.

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32 minutes ago, streamdragon said:

All I know is Calculate better be effin amazing, or droid ships are basically trash.

 

And Ion doesn't really change how good Force users are.  They're still better than non force users.  This mostly just hurts droid ships.  All ... 6 of them.  Like, why bother designing this mechanic.  So far it seems like a stellar example of "why fluff should not influence mechanics".

Presumably there will be unique upgrades for droid pilots. Otherwise calculate looks nothing more than a hindrance. 

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15 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

In the case of IG-88, you can think of calculate as a "focus that is split up in multiple pieces".  It's complex and will require a lot of math, which is probably why MajorJuggler is interested in it ;)

 

Warning, math talk ahead:

 

I am already calculating a full action economy for all ships, with the generalization that they can have 0-2 focus tokens per turn. For each incoming attack the defending ship has a certain % chance of spending 1 focus on defense. The probability of a ship spending focus on defense is a function of all the attacks that is incoming into it, weighted by how likely each attack is. Then there is also a distribution of how many attacks per round each ship is likely to see, which affects how likely the defender is to have a focus token available to spend on any given shot. All of the above is used to then compute how likely that same ship is to have a focus available while attacking, and also the ship's durability (more likely to have focus on defense obviously equals more durable). The probability of each ship having focus available for attack is then fed back into the above action economy probability calculation. So basically you just keep iterating the above until you reach a steady state of action economies across all ships. In mathematical terms this is a hyperspace (the mathematical kind, not the star Wars FTL kind) with one dimension for each unique ship that's represented in the attack rolls. At first glance it might seem that this risks convergence issues reaching the absolute minimum in the hyperspace, but the action economy feedback mechanisms are such that it appears there is only one local minimum, and it only takes a couple iterations to get there from any starting point in the initial hyperspace. I.e. you can start with an unrealistic assumption that every single ship has a 100% chance of having focus on both offense and defense, and after several iterations of the above, the action economies will settle out at the "correct" values. I haven't rigorously analytically proved that this is true, but empirically seems to be the case. 

 

That all being said, IG88's with calculate will work exactly the same as any other ship in the above action economy calculations. The difference is that they will be able to spend more than 1 calculate token on both offense and defense, and if they start with a calculate action at the beginning of the round they'll get 2, like regular ships with recon specialist. I just wanted to be sure that I knew how the calculate action really works, before writing new code.

 

 

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On 5/20/2018 at 12:12 PM, FTS Gecko said:

Short sighted, you are.

Consider future Seperatist faction, you did not.

An entire faction that is electronically neutered by Ion?

Also as much as I love the Clone Wars era (despite the actual movies that set it up), I highly doubt we're ever going to see it in game.  FFG has had years before the new movie era to include Prequel ships and factions AS prequel ships and factions.  That they have explicitly chosen not to do so speaks rather loudly.

 

On 5/20/2018 at 12:19 PM, Vargas79 said:

Presumably there will be unique upgrades for droid pilots. Otherwise calculate looks nothing more than a hindrance. 

That is a rather large assumption, given that there are currently 6, maybe 7 droid pilots in the whole game.  There will certainly never be enough to even closely match the number of meatbag pilots, which rather limits the likelihood of a line of upgrades specifically for those pilots.  Maybe, maybe, when the Scum line gets reworked and we see new IG pilots, but until then?  I am doubting FFG is that forward thinking.  It also does nothing for the time between now and then, and months of "man, these pilots are sure underwhelming" doesn't exactly seem like a smart place to start.

Edited by streamdragon

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There’s currently 9 that we know about:

AP5

Leebo

Chopper

Guri

4Lom

IG88 A-D

K2SO is likely going to feature at some point and they’ve got calculate tokens in the Imperial conversion pack which hints that they’ll have a droid pilot in amongst it. So we’re potentially at 11 pilots.

I don’t think it’s that much of a leap of logic. Force users have their own upgrades, why not droids? Especially as they’ve had their focus action downgraded to calculate. 

 

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On 5/19/2018 at 5:57 PM, flooze said:

I am not yet sure if the focus is superior in every case. 

Calculate lets you change one result, so in the case that there are several eyes in one roll, focus is superior. 

I understood that the devs want to limit token stacking, but there is a way for calculate - see the ig88s, especially A - to stack. 

I assume that it is easier to get multiple calculate tokens than to get multiple focus tokens. I may be wrong here (hello recon specialist). You can spend your calculates on different rolls, which would then be superior to focus if you roll one eye on each roll. 

From what I understand Calculate doesnt need an eyeball. Or did I just miss where they said it does?

 

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