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Did I miss something or Phantoms got nerfed to inexistence in 2.0?

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Of all the ships in the game, I think the phantom has been changed the most. It is now a TOTALLY different ship and we really have NO idea how it will fly anymore other than they are not going to fly like they used to. 

And for the record, I used to fly echo a lot, hardly ever put VI on her. 

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1 minute ago, Forgottenlore said:

Of all the ships in the game, I think the phantom has been changed the most. It is now a TOTALLY different ship and we really have NO idea how it will fly anymore other than they are not going to fly like they used to. 

And for the record, I used to fly echo a lot, hardly ever put VI on her. 

i liked her too, the last time i used was recently in an local store championship, got her dead in the first shot in 2 games, one by dengar, another by decimator, you just can't arc dodge a ship that needs nor arc...

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2 minutes ago, galahadba said:

i liked her too, the last time i used was recently in an local store championship, got her dead in the first shot in 2 games, one by dengar, another by decimator, you just can't arc dodge a ship that needs nor arc...

Yeah, turrets were always a problem. 

If only they would do something so you could still possibly arc dodge a turret oh, wait...

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

no one can use FCS anymore, except the Advance really

but we got predator now

 

or Vader (crew) if they can take crew

The advanced is bad anyways. You are forgetting the biggest infractor: E-wing.

Now, E-wing is so broken with fcs it will have a good full modded alpha strike and can even keep the TL as a predator if it didn't need to reroll more than 1 dice. It is ridiculously overpowered now.

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Thoughts:

  • Yes, you've lost an attack, but you've also gained a hull. Someone mentioned it being more x-wing-esque?
  • Stygium was always the weaker - but cheaper - of the two mods. Now you have it baked in, but also have the ability for a free recloak if you can arc dodge (I accept that if you get shot at not spending the evade is unlikely), meaning you're playing more like generic phantoms
  • Theres Always A Blind Spot Somewhere

 

11 minutes ago, falveryn said:

Now, E-wing is so broken with fcs it will have a good full modded alpha strike and can even keep the TL as a predator if it didn't need to reroll more than 1 dice. It is ridiculously overpowered now.

It's ridiculously powerful. It's not ridiculously overpowered because we don't know how much it costs. Remember it's supposed to be the Rebel's equivalent of the TIE Defender, which gained +1 Shield and Boost as well as having the TIE/x7 ability baked in.

By comparison, the E-wing got long range scanners. Combined with Fire Control, that does give you the option of  double-modified torpedo, which is good, but you're buying a very expensive ship for this when an Inquisitor (target lock & force token) could achieve about the same.

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22 minutes ago, falveryn said:

The advanced is bad anyways. You are forgetting the biggest infractor: E-wing.

Now, E-wing is so broken with fcs it will have a good full modded alpha strike and can even keep the TL as a predator if it didn't need to reroll more than 1 dice. It is ridiculously overpowered now.

Someone else is seeing what I'm seeing. After today we know that E-wings & Defenders are going to be very powerful in 2.0.

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Just now, Magnus Grendel said:

Thoughts:

  • Yes, you've lost an attack, but you've also gained a hull. Someone mentioned it being more x-wing-esque?
  • Stygium was always the weaker - but cheaper - of the two mods. Now you have it baked in, but also have the ability for a free recloak if you can arc dodge (I accept that if you get shot at not spending the evade is unlikely), meaning you're playing more like generic phantoms
  • Theres Always A Blind Spot Somewhere

 

It's ridiculously powerful. It's not ridiculously overpowered because we don't know how much it costs. Remember it's supposed to be the Rebel's equivalent of the TIE Defender, which gained +1 Shield and Boost as well as having the TIE/x7 ability baked in.

By comparison, the E-wing got long range scanners. Combined with Fire Control, that does give you the option of  double-modified torpedo, which is good, but you're buying a very expensive ship for this when an Inquisitor (target lock & force token) could achieve about the same.

A fully equipped Corran was far more expensive than a fully equipped named defender.  Generic E-wing pilots needed a buff, and this is very good for them. LRS is good because it is a free action when you disengage and because it synergizes very well with FCS, and FCS is the best upgrade we have seen. Passive attack modifiers are heavily discouraged in 2.0, and that is why it is so good. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think a fully modded Corran would be half your army give or take 10%, and generics depending on how many generic defenders you can field, but with FCS they are very on par with defenders. FCS should be costing more than 4 points, because it is very worth it on E-wings, and basically must have on Advanceds so they go from very bad to meh.

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54 minutes ago, galahadba said:

Phantom get buffed by ships getting arcs again, no more get alpha shot by a ship that can atack in 360º and have a high ps than you. This alone is alread enoth to get Phantom back in the game, but you get more

 

- free evade when decloak

- recloak is not an action, if you are stressed and have your evade you can clock and flee

- you now have an EPT and modification slot (before it was exclusive for VI/ACD)

- one more hit point, in a game where heavly modified atack dice are rare (i didin't see any ship that can link focus/target lock until now) and all automatick modifications like predator needs the bulls eye

- one less atack dice, it looks bad, but it means that the ship will get a huge price discount (one more atack costed 12 points in some ship in 1.0), so it will not cost half your squad poins anymore, and you can pair it with another strong ships.

 

 

  I just see good things...

1. only when not stressed

2. only when you were not stressed when decloaked / cloaked and if you manage to keep your evade

3. one more hitpoint is next to nothing when rebel meta will be Fat Han (with Gunner Luke, EU) that throws fully modified 4 dice attacks and Wedge as a wingman with Proton-Torps will curb stomp you into non-existance in the opening volley. Chances of surviving (in K2-SO voice): it is low. very low.

4. even if the reduced price is good, the phantom will lose so much flavor. to me it was always a deadly but nimble high tech weapon. the lose of the 4 reds totally sucks for me. In a world where Talonbane and Fenn keep their 5 reds and the Ghost keeps the 4 red primary and even dash get one baked in.. why is it that only the Phantom has to lose 1 die? I mean they already nerfed the cloak to a fancy barrel roll that adds nearly nothing to defense anymore...

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2 minutes ago, beardxofxdeath said:

1. only when not stressed

2. only when you were not stressed when decloaked / cloaked and if you manage to keep your evade

3. one more hitpoint is next to nothing when rebel meta will be Fat Han (with Gunner Luke, EU) that throws fully modified 4 dice attacks and Wedge as a wingman with Proton-Torps will curb stomp you into non-existance in the opening volley. Chances of surviving (in K2-SO voice): it is low. very low.

4. even if the reduced price is good, the phantom will lose so much flavor. to me it was always a deadly but nimble high tech weapon. the lose of the 4 reds totally sucks for me. In a world where Talonbane and Fenn keep their 5 reds and the Ghost keeps the 4 red primary and even dash get one baked in.. why is it that only the Phantom has to lose 1 die? I mean they already nerfed the cloak to a fancy barrel roll that adds nearly nothing to defense anymore...

1/2: So what's stressing you?

3: I'm confused, is "fat han" evading for psudo-reinforce, White boosting for range 1/ 4 dice, Target locking to reroll dice he wants to reroll (Han has to reroll ALL the dice, including the good ones) or focusing to use more than the one Eyeball result Luke provides (assuming he didnt need to rotate his arc)? Tie Phantom is the only ship that can stack focus/evade without a coordinate- assuming a reasonable action economy on the opposition side, the phantom has a decent chance of coming out with at least 1 HP.

4: you could always, you know, not decloak. 4 greens and a manual evad or focus isnt a bad place to be in, if it tanks fire from the rest of your fleet.

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1 hour ago, galahadba said:

- one less atack dice, it looks bad, but it means that the ship will get a huge price discount (one more atack costed 12 points in some ship in 1.0), so it will not cost half your squad poins anymore, and you can pair it with another strong ships.

1 extra attack die cost 12 points on a primary weapon turret.  Bit different from forward arc only.

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Did people forget how to fly ships?

If you are taking a bunch of shots flying a phantom you either need serious practice or got outplayed. Whisper dies from green dice blanking out, or higher ps shooting first. Now, phantoms dont care cause they get an evade (automatic damage prevention) with that extra hull.

PWTs are no more. You decloak to a side of a turret ship where it aint pointing, and let them spend their action to turn the turret if they move after you (probably stressing them if they linked it).

You still have the system slot for all types of goodies. Adv Sensors is gonna be a dream for ships without linked actions like the phantom. Also your mod slot is WIDE open now, letting you take another hull/shield upgrade or whatever other goodies come along. Combine that with crew they can carrier like inquisitor and darth vader giving them force powers and support ships carrying palps or krennic.

Phantoms will be just fine. Lot more playable than they are now, thats for sure.

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1 minute ago, Rakaydos said:

...right, old info. Only the Phantom and a fast moving Defender can stack focus/evade without a coordinate.

For generic chassis'.  Other pilots will be able to.  We know soontir has the potential to, inquisitor is almost as good between evade action and force tokens, who knows about pilots we haven't seen yet.

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28 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

1/2: So what's stressing you?

3: I'm confused, is "fat han" evading for psudo-reinforce, White boosting for range 1/ 4 dice, Target locking to reroll dice he wants to reroll (Han has to reroll ALL the dice, including the good ones) or focusing to use more than the one Eyeball result Luke provides (assuming he didnt need to rotate his arc)? Tie Phantom is the only ship that can stack focus/evade without a coordinate- assuming a reasonable action economy on the opposition side, the phantom has a decent chance of coming out with at least 1 HP.

4: you could always, you know, not decloak. 4 greens and a manual evad or focus isnt a bad place to be in, if it tanks fire from the rest of your fleet.

Red maneuvers and i bet there will be some stress mechanics. There are already at least 2 previewed (Admiral Sloane and Ventress). You can bet there will be more. You are very naive if you think this will be the only ones.

He is flexible. If he knows he can PS-Kill (Iniative Kill now?) a ship he boost into range 1 of an enemy and a obstacle. Sometimes it is even possible to arc dodge while doing this. That is just a bonus. Luke gives you the mini focus and Han the rerolls. If that already confuses you, maybe you should stay away from more complex games?

Sure you can not decloak. Lose another round of shooting. The missing 1 red hurts all the more when you only shoot every other round.

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Sloan only gives you stress if you kill something. Ventress only stresses you if you dont have a token.

So in that scenerio, Han has 2 chances on 4 dice to get 3+ paint with no more than 1 eyeball. (the no more than 1 eyeball makes the probability tables complicated, otherwise I'd just run the numbers now) The phantom then rolls 2 dice, and double paint  means it takes 1 damage and has an evade for Wedge, guarenteeing survival. evade+blank  means it only has a focus for wedge, which is still a 5/8 chance of survival.

 

Meanwhile my other 3 phantoms rip into the falcon, also at range 1, with 12 attack dice with focus, and their evades mean they recloack at the end of the round. you lost half points on Han and a torpedo from wedge to maybe take out 1/4 of my list. Happy?

But hey, maybe I shouldnt play COMPLICATED games.

Edited by Rakaydos

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20 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Sloan only gives you stress if you kill something. Ventress only stresses you if you dont have a token.

So in that scenerio, Han has 2 chances on 4 dice to get 3+ paint with no more than 1 eyeball. (the no more than 1 eyeball makes the probability tables complicated, otherwise I'd just run the numbers now) The phantom then rolls 2 dice, and double paint  means it takes 1 damage and has an evade for Wedge, guarenteeing survival. evade+blank  means it only has a focus for wedge, which is still a 5/8 chance of survival. 

 

Meanwhile my other 3 phantoms rip into the falcon, also at range 1, with 12 attack dice with focus, and their evades mean they recloack at the end of the round. you lost half points on Han and a torpedo from wedge to maybe take out 1/4 of my list. Happy? 

But hey, maybe I shouldnt play COMPLICATED games.

Sure.

You won this game. Good luck in pulling this off in real life at a tournament. Phantom Meta incoming. You predicted it.

(For my part i believe rather in the Fat Han resurgence)

We will see in a few months. ;)

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I lament the loss of the 4th attack die.  Phantoms were always a high-tech supership, and bringing it down to 3 reds just makes it another interceptor.  The Phantom used to be up there with the Defender as an elite prototype, and now they are not.

Who knows?  The reduced cost might work in their favor here, and maybe they'll be a viable and valuable contributor for the Empire.  But it won't be the same glass cannon it used to be.

I really, really wish they had seen fit to give this ship the target lock action, to help offset the offensive nerf.  I've flown a lot of TIE Strikers, who roll 3 dice without target locks.  Their damage output is rarely reliable.

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3 hours ago, falveryn said:

The advanced is bad anyways. You are forgetting the biggest infractor: E-wing.

Now, E-wing is so broken with fcs it will have a good full modded alpha strike and can even keep the TL as a predator if it didn't need to reroll more than 1 dice. It is ridiculously overpowered now.

Absolute nonsense

If the Ewing isn't significantly more expensive than the advance (at least 150-200%), then all hope is lost for 2.0. that's how you balance things when the E is strictly superior to far more ships than just the advance. That's how EVERY miniatures game is balanced

 

 

Though agreed about fat Han resurgence. Luke gunner in the polish spoiler is the single greatest mistake ffg has ever made, considering they've made it before and have elected to repeat it

Better be at least/ 30 points or occur during a different phase 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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It's a very different ship now. I really like the glass cannon 1.0 version and am a little sad that they didn't keep that dynamic. Obviously it was pretty broken and hard to fix.

The free slots is massive. Imagining this with a shield upgrade from somewhere and it suddenly looks like a tanky, manoeuverable fighter. With systems and crew as well, there's lots of ways to go with it. 

Just as massive is cost. If you can get 2 aces in with it, it's a different ball game.

I think it helps to forget about the whole cloak mechanic and just think of it as a very manoeuverable, specialist fighter with a little extra damage mitigation. It'll be very hard to pin it down with multiple ships and it should be able to tank a few hits from only one. I also like to imagine 2 of them where I only had 1 before.

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6 hours ago, falveryn said:

The advanced is bad anyways. You are forgetting the biggest infractor: E-wing.

Now, E-wing is so broken with fcs it will have a good full modded alpha strike and can even keep the TL as a predator if it didn't need to reroll more than 1 dice. It is ridiculously overpowered now.

Yeah, but generic E-Wings needed a boost of some kind, and Corran needed a corresponding nerf. I'm interested in seeing what sort of upgrades an R4 equipped E-Wing can make use of now, as those turn it's red 1Turns into white and it's white 2Turn's to greens, effectively giving it an Interceptor/A-Wing tier dial.

However, as a balancing act, it's only link actions are Boost or BR to TL, and the E-Wing can't TL at range 0-1 any more.

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Though agreed about fat Han resurgence. Luke gunner in the polish spoiler is the single greatest mistake ffg has ever made, considering they've made it before and have elected to repeat it

Better be at least/ 30 points or occur during a different phase 

The timing on Luke (gunner) just needs to be somewhere between the start of the planning phase and the beginning of the activation phase and that'll be a lot more balanced. The end of the Device phase would be fine as well although I would have thought that wording would have been noticed.

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28 minutes ago, Kilrex said:

I am hoping Targeting Computer is still going to be around as a Mod and not a Sensor.

I was going to mention that; since your mod slot is now 'free' you can afford to buy this - which would then stack with Fire Control

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