Jump to content
ThatRobHuman

Let's play a game. Upgrade cards.

Recommended Posts

Pick at least one of the following. In all instances, share your reasoning on how it would benefit the game without resorting to "because it sucks, etc" (If I can ask "how is that the case?" Or "why do you think that?" You haven't explained as much as you could have)

1) Name an upgrade card you wish didn't exist and why.

2) Name up to three upgrade cards you want nerfed, buffed, or altered. Explain how and why.

3) build at least one new upgrade card and explain what benefit it would have on gameplay.

4) constructively critique the contribution of a previous post in the thread beyond "yes good" or "this idea sucks". (Again, if I can ask "what makes you think that?" You haven't explained yourself well enough).

 

 

Edited by FoaS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) SAd because it was the lazy path to "counter" activation game. I hoped designers to be more creative. But who knows, maybe they tested a thousand of things and anything else worked.

2) PDR: no range limitation; Cluster Bombs: exhaust it instead, maybe less damage output to balance it; Phylon Q7: during your activation instead. 

3) 96th Task Force (arquitens title): usual mechanic to add 1 die to the pool. Something fitted for arquitens whose lack of good titles hurt me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1)  Yavaris.  Although I'm not going to call it "OP" or "broken," it's a force multiplier that effectively provides 3 extra squadrons' worth of firepower.  This means a maxed out squadron wing without Yavaris will be outgunned by a maxed out squadron wing with Yavaris, and the game will revolve around trying to work around/take advantage of that disparity.

2)  Give the Phantom Grit.  It has 4 hull, it's expensive and there's no way for Imperials to reroll those blue dice.  Making it just a bit more elusive plays to its strength.

3) Heavy Flak Emplacements: while attacking a squadron, add 1 die of your choice.  Offensive Retrofit, 7 points.  This would give ships an increased punch against squads, and would combo well with cards like Ordnance Pods, Agent Kallus and Flechette Torpedoes.  Aside from making flotillas and fragile specialists like Impetuous better at what they do, it opens up some interesting options for ISD, MC75 and VSD-1 builds.

4)  @ovinomanc3r  While Strategic Adviser isn't the most creative approach to the activation game, he's by far the most played of FFG's 3 distinct officer choices, and I think that's telling.  Simplicity is sometimes the best answer, but you definitely have a fair case.   All of your suggested modifications for step 2 seem pretty resonable, except maybe Cluster Bombs.  As is, Cluster Bombs can prevent the 3-4 per game benchmark for damage.  Where it suffers is in that it only works vs one type of fleet, and your opponent can find other targets (if the ship were truly expensive, you'd be putting something more generalist on there.)  As for the rest, PDR becomes at least usable for dual blue flak, and for Phylons... you remember to trigger them now?  I don't know what the change would do.  For part 3, adding a die is a little questionable.  A  Slaved Turrets Vader Arquitens would throw 6 dice at long range with a CF; that seems above its weight class.  What about a reroll mechanic like TFO? Such a title would enable you to run barebones Arquitens, and thus fit multiples in more easily.

Edited by The Jabbawookie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) I'll cheat and say Demo AND Yavaris. These are the only 2 "must have" cards in the game and although Yavaris can be swapped for Salvation in a non squad based build, it's still telling that if you go squad, Yavaris is a must have. Demo is said for obvious reasons. Let's just called Demo the Gladiator tax.

2) Redundant shields: Not a mod anymore. Cost 7 points, gives you 1 shield per turn and lets you move 1 shield for free. PDR: Remove the range limitation, reduce the cost to 3. QLTs: Reduce cost to 3.

3)  a. Disruption field: Defensive retrofit: 4 points. Discard.  At the beginning of the ship phase, you may discard this card. If you do, all attacks on your ship are obstructed for the remainder of the turn. My main goal is to give another option for ships to survive a big bomber attack in a turn. Might be OP, but it's still not great against big ships and is still situationnal.

b. Ion disrupters (see the theme here?): 4 points. Blue crit. When attacking an enemy ship or squadron, you may spend a blue crit to force a ship or squadron to make obstructed attacks for the rest of the turn. (this would require a new type of token, otherwise you could lose track of which squad or ship is "obstructed" and which one is not)

4) @The Jabbawookie  I think your suggestion is something people have been waiting for, but I think the "add 1 die of your choice" is kind of not needed as I doubt people will pick something other than a black dice for flak fire. For that reason, I think a cost of 6 is actually enough for that upgrade. I agree that Yavaris is kind of Broken... but unless you completely nerf it to oblivion, you can't really do something about it. Best counter is to kill Yavaris ASAP.

Edited by Sybreed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Yavaris - Let's just pour on the hate. Though Bail/Pryce/SAD are a cumulative close tie for second.

2) Change Xi7/Advanced Projector interaction so AP would work to move 2 damage even with Xi7. Director Isard - When you reveal a command you may discard this card to choose one enemy ship. That ship may not activate this turn. Up her points to 10.   NK-7 - Spend a blue crit to discard one of your opponents defense tokens. (so it goes before they get the chance to spend them AND you choose not them. Also, not exhaust so you can double arc.

3) I like the idea of an Arquitens title. But I want it to be something WAY more out of the box than a task force title. It needs something DEFINING in the way Yavaris and Salvation are defining for the Nebulon. How about a title - Before deployment, you may set this ship aside. Any turn after the first you may deploy this ship within distance 1 of any friendly ship. For each turn this ship spends off the board it may add 1 dice of any color to it's pool on the turn it is deployed. And a second title - During your activation, instead of attacking you may choose 1 friendly ship at distance 1-2. That ship may perform one attack from one of it's hull zones. Jendon for Ships. It IS a command ship right?

4) love em all guys, keep up the good ideas!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

2)  Give the Phantom Grit.  It has 4 hull, it's expensive and there's no way for Imperials to reroll those blue dice.  Making it just a bit more elusive plays to its strength.

I don't disagree at all, but I plan on doing another thread later for squadrons.

 

I suppose I should play my own game, a little - I'm going to opt to simply do #2 at this time.

Yavaris - Nebulon-B title; 6 points - Squadron Command : Choose one squadron you activate. That squadron can attack twice if it does not move during your activation.
(+1 point cost and limit it to one squadron. I think this will still give that Yavaris Flavour without overwhelming the pallet. It makes Yavaris a little more vulnerable to being countered because clearly people are going to burn tokens on that one squadron's attack and actually opening up interesting options - do I use my good bomber, or do I feint by double-tapping with my second-best?, etc)

Cluster Bombs - Defensive Retrofit; 3 points: (same as vanilla card)
(Just reducing the point cost to make it a more attractive option)

Redundant Shields - Defensive Retrofit; 8 points: Exhaust this card to gain a number of engineering points as though you just spend an Engineering Token. These points can only be spent recovering shields. (I don't like the wording on this, but I feel like it gives this a bit more oomph, particularly on engineering-heavy ships but not tipping any major scales, I think? This is a shot-from-the-hip thing, though.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I'm gonna take a slightly unique approach  and choose gunnery teams as it just causes things to point and shoot rather than work on double arcing, and unless you have 2 gunnery teams ships you need to spread fire rather than concentrate

2. change, yavaris to be: before you finish the activation of a squadron, if it has not moved you may exhaust this card to fire again. I like it slightly more than your variant @FoaS because it can be countered with the niche counter of MS-1 Ion cannons (they can be good one day :))  

3 defensive retrofit 3 points: Angled deflector shields, engineering command: you may move two shields for every point of engineering. I think this would give big ships an option for a jack of all trades defensive. It will be good against squads and ships but not be better than either EWS or ECM respectively.

4. Broba I like your quitten idea as it makes it really good in a support role like they are meant to be used. maybe needs a little balancing in regards to a triple tapping ISD but I'd say maybe another ship may attack again, after gathering the dice pool, remove half the dice rounded up to a minimum of 3. that way you don't get 8-9 dice ISD's firing but it has sufficent hits from bigger ships  due to the trading away of a 3 red die attack from the quitten itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

4)  @ovinomanc3r  While Strategic Adviser isn't the most creative approach to the activation game, he's by far the most played of FFG's 3 distinct officer choices, and I think that's telling.  Simplicity is sometimes the best answer, but you definitely have a fair case.   All of your suggested modifications for step 2 seem pretty resonable, except maybe Cluster Bombs.  As is, Cluster Bombs can prevent the 3-4 per game benchmark for damage.  Where it suffers is in that it only works vs one type of fleet, and your opponent can find other targets (if the ship were truly expensive, you'd be putting something more generalist on there.)  As for the rest, PDR becomes at least usable for dual blue flak, and for Phylons... you remember to trigger them now?  I don't know what the change would do.  For part 3, adding a die is a little questionable.  A  Slaved Turrets Vader Arquitens would throw 6 dice at long range with a CF; that seems above its weight class.  What about a reroll mechanic like TFO? Such a title would enable you to run barebones Arquitens, and thus fit multiples in more easily.

If almost everyone plays SAd where is the difference he makes?? I don't say he is useless really, I just don't like it. I would like some kind of upgrade that punish activation advantage not one that just give you that. "Add one die for each enemy ship at distance 1-5"; "if you end your movement at distance 1-5 of an enemy unactivated ship, ready one defense token"; "you may perform up to three attacks from different hull zones, if you do you can only target ships". I mean, I am not a designer but I think there were more options. SAd could be even worse though so I am fine.

About Cluster Bombs, I added that damage output could be rebalanced. Crits don't counting is not a bad idea paired with exhauatable. I mean it is just some kind of counter 4 once per round. I would think on it as a defensive retrofit for squadronless builds what it is supposed to be... I guess.

Phylon would be more interesting too. Not sure how much but being able to move and then target Demo to slow it down seems good. It won't be more than what is it but would open its range.

Arquitens hitting above its class? Like Glads and mc30? If you costed the title at 6 points you have a 60 points arquitens that requires at least another to roll 4 red. 5 with CF (glads are also able to do that). 66 with ST not being able to shoot twice. It is close to a VSD but much more weak. I don't know about points though. 

11 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

3) I like the idea of an Arquitens title. But I want it to be something WAY more out of the box than a task force title. It needs something DEFINING in the way Yavaris and Salvation are defining for the Nebulon. How about a title - Before deployment, you may set this ship aside. Any turn after the first you may deploy this ship within distance 1 of any friendly ship. For each turn this ship spends off the board it may add 1 dice of any color to it's pool on the turn it is deployed. And a second title - During your activation, instead of attacking you may choose 1 friendly ship at distance 1-2. That ship may perform one attack from one of it's hull zones. Jendon for Ships. It IS a command ship right?

I go with task forces cause I have three and I am not sure what would make an arquitens really powerful in some way. I was thinking in a way to navigate allowing increased firepower. Now I find interesting a title that allowed to change any amount of dice to any color acording to the range. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, FoaS said:

1) Name an upgrade card you wish didn't exist and why.

The Jyn Erso officer. I feel like they wasted a cool unique character with an effect that very few people will ever use and will likely never be effective. 
 

17 hours ago, FoaS said:

2) Name up to three upgrade cards you want nerfed, buffed, or altered. Explain how and why.

1.) Repair crews should get a buff, it's a good effect but I feel it would be more useful if it could either effect shields repair a squadron or had better range. It would be nice to see it do better. 
2.) Gunnery teams should be nerfed just a little. I think the 2nd shot should be forced to lose a die or the inital die pool of the first shot must be split between the 2 shots. It just doesn't seem very tactical to be able to shoot everything. Gunnery teams feels lazy.
3.) I'd like Avenger to be restored to it's prenerf status, there's really no point in running a PT fleet if it can only jank once a turn.
 

17 hours ago, FoaS said:

3) build at least one new upgrade card and explain what benefit it would have on gameplay.

5186h.jpg 5187h.jpg

I think this could add some fun to ships with limited red or blue dice choices. Get better accuracy at long range and better firepower at medium. 
 

17 hours ago, FoaS said:

4) constructively critique the contribution of a previous post in the thread beyond "yes good" or "this idea sucks". (Again, if I can ask "what makes you think that?" You haven't explained yourself well enough).

 

15 hours ago, Sybreed said:

3)  a. Disruption field: Defensive retrofit: 4 points. Discard.  At the beginning of the ship phase, you may discard this card. If you do, all attacks on your ship are obstructed for the remainder of the turn. My main goal is to give another option for ships to survive a big bomber attack in a turn. Might be OP, but it's still not great against big ships and is still situationnal.


I really like this idea. I feel like for 4 points though it may be a hair too powerful though (imagine that ISD brushing off a Yavaris attack just to one shot the nebulon), maybe add a negative?  something like "You may only use half your inital attack pool (rounded up) during attacks performed for the remainder of the round." 

That's my 2 cents anyways lol

Edited by Darth Sanguis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Arquitens hitting above its class? Like Glads and mc30? If you costed the title at 6 points you have a 60 points arquitens that requires at least another to roll 4 red. 5 with CF (glads are also able to do that). 66 with ST not being able to shoot twice.

Gladiators and the MC30 are close range brawlers, which make it hard to combine fire on the same target.  Using them without first player takes skill (except Demo, and people seem to be calling that out in step one.)  Arqs don’t double arc well.  They don’t Ackbar slash.  6 red dice for 66 points is an Ackbar Assault Cruiser.  It’s a Cymoon with a Concentrate Fire.  I would never do anything other than run 5 of these and a flotilla with Vader, Most Wanted, Fire Lanes and Intel Sweep.  Much as I respect and share the desire to buff the Arq, it seems more in keeping with its support skirmisher role to make it more cost-effective, rather than hard hitting (as it can already chuck up to 5 reds.)

Edited by The Jabbawookie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Avenger - It's a powerful title but the reason I wish it didn't exist is it takes away a lot of gameplay.  The choice to use tokens is removed from the defender which is frustrating.  Before Sloan and Boarding Troopers it wasn't as big an issue.

Expanded Launchers for 13 points its VERY pricey.  Dice adds should be though.  I think a reasonable alter would be to drop a point or two.  Otherwise given the number of turns most ships are in black range External Racks is just too good to pass up for the 10 points.

I think SaD is fine even though if both sides bring one it negates itself.  It should be there to help Large ships vs MSU.  Not to completely counter it just give back a bit to the Large ship fleet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just going to toss in a bunch of custom thing I think are interesting at best, then maybe look at the arq.

1: Minefield retrofit.  Offensive retrofit and Ord.  Medium (and Large)? ship only  Instead of performing an attack, you may place a missile pod token.  When performing an attack, when choosing an arc to attack out of you may attack from a missile pod token that was not placed this round with a battery armament of 5 black dice.  Missile pod tokens count as objective tokens for the purpose of the "Strategic" Keyword.  10(?) points

It gives Vic. 1s something useful to do, and expands their threat radius.

2: Saturation Bombardment Team.  Weapons team.  Instead of performing an attack, you may place a saturation bombardment token within your flak range (wording?)  When an enemy squadron at distance one(-2)? of that token activates, Its owner may either decrease its printed speed by one, or allow you to perform an attack against it using your full anti-squadron armament.  This attack cannot be obstructed or modified.  When attacking in this manner, you may spend a die with a "crit" result to treat the squadron as engaged for the rest of its activation.  10 points.

HEAVILY incentivizes the speed decrease and gives ships some anti-squad power, but mostly control.

EDIT: Arq thoughts:

Maybe make it more of a support ship?  I was thinking:

Decrease your battery armaments by one red die.  When a friendly ship is attacking, if you could attack their target, it may roll its entire battery armament, ignoring range restrictions.  some points.

Edited by Do I need a Username

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

EDIT: Arq thoughts:

Maybe make it more of a support ship?  I was thinking:

Decrease your battery armaments by one red die.  When a friendly ship is attacking, if you could attack their target, it may roll its entire battery armament, ignoring range restrictions.  some points.

Why an Arquitens thing?

Targeting Coordinators (Weapons team? Support team? Officer?)

When a friendly ship is attacking an enemy ship at short range of you, it may treat the range as being medium if at long range and treat the range as short if at medium range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, now that they finally took the community advice and second edition X-wing... Can I start my campaign to have Armada get a second edition!? Please! Okay seriously, it doesn't need it now. But I want the game to get to the point where it does.

In the mean time.

Ban Raddus and Riekan to casual play. They operate too far out of the realm of the games principals to be effectively nerfed. Riekan ignores the whole core strategy/importance that is targeting priority, which every war game has in some form. And Raddus ignores planning and maneuvering to the largest degree of any of the mechanics that let you bring in off board units. I find it no surprise that the two of them were the ONLY two admirals in the top four cut at worlds. Ironically because they are also foils to each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Ban Raddus and Riekan to casual play. They operate too far out of the realm of the games principals to be effectively nerfed. Riekan ignores the whole core strategy/importance that is targeting priority, which every war game has in some form. And Raddus ignores planning and maneuvering to the largest degree of any of the mechanics that let you bring in off board units. I find it no surprise that the two of them were the ONLY two admirals in the top four cut at worlds. Ironically because they are also foils to each other.

That seems like a Swift response.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem always has been and always will be Yavaris. Rieekan, when not combo'd with the most powerful aces AND best force multiplier in the entire game, is actually a pretty fun admiral to play as/against, BECAUSE he flips targeting priority on its head.

It's just when that supercombo happens that people run into (imo) a negative play experience

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Ban Raddus and Riekan to casual play. They operate too far out of the realm of the games principals to be effectively nerfed. Riekan ignores the whole core strategy/importance that is targeting priority, which every war game has in some form. And Raddus ignores planning and maneuvering to the largest degree of any of the mechanics that let you bring in off board units. I find it no surprise that the two of them were the ONLY two admirals in the top four cut at worlds. Ironically because they are also foils to each other.

Wow, and I thought Nerf 2.0 was heavy handed. FFG starts outright banning anything else, and I may drop myself from"competitive"play.

I want to beat the best fleet my opponent can come up with, and it is already getting to the point where the only way to get that is in casual play.

3) -un-nerf Rhymer back to medium range, and add "bomber only"

-buff Tagg to turn 4 & 6.

-buff Konstantine to "combined command value of 6..." Instead of medium or large. 

6084h.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, cynanbloodbane said:

I want to beat the best fleet my opponent can come up with

 

So you were happy playing against Rieekan GHY 2+ 3 and Sloane 1 + 4 pretty much exclusively? Cause that’s what our meta had devolved into, and I must say the nerf was a breath of fresh air. People are actually experimenting with different fleets rather than just sticking to their “power fleet”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

So you were happy playing against Rieekan GHY 2+ 3 and Sloane 1 + 4 pretty much exclusively? Cause that’s what our meta had devolved into, and I must say the nerf was a breath of fresh air. People are actually experimenting with different fleets rather than just sticking to their “power fleet”

I still believe sloane should still only work with swarm squadrons only.  She is a very good admiral.

But yea I feel like if they just make Yavaris only work on one squadron in addition to the current Nerfs, Rieekan wouldn't be too bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We seem to be veering off the train a bit. There are plenty of threads going where we discuss the merits and shortcomings of Yavaris, Rieekan, and so on. If we're going to continue discussing them, let's go with discussing potential solutions. For example: if you have an idea as to how to alter any of the above: Give it a half dozen games and let us know how they go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

I still believe sloane should still only work with swarm and cloak squadrons only.  She is a very good admiral.

But yea I feel like if they just make Yavaris only work on one squadron in addition to the current Nerfs, Rieekan wouldn't be too bad.

FTFY?

...We can all agree the Phantom needs it, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...