Noob Question re: Story Phase & Exhausted Cards

[Deek 0]

I want to be 100% sure I understand these points going into my second game, as they caused some confusion the first time out:

The Stories are all resolved in a single, uninterrupted sequence, correct? With the exception of Disrupts and Forced Responses, no one is allowed to play actions during the course of Story resolution. Does this resolution sequence include the success comparison? Or only the icon struggles? The detailed turn sequence lists the struggles as part of the gray block (indicating no actions), then presents a white block that includes "responses to success and struggles may be played" (maybe not an exact quote). I assume the skill success portion of each Story counts as part of the uninterrupted sequence, but I'm not certain.

I assume this means that cards responding to the results of struggles/stories must be held until all of the stories are completely resolved at which point they are played retroactively (assuming they're not forced or disrupts). "Okay, in that first story I came away from the horror struggle with more than two successes, remember? So I can play this card, right?" Am I missing something? Though this seems a tad inelegant, chances are my friend and I are processing the sequence incorrectly.

Also ... and this may sound like a stupid question, but ... once a card has been exhausted for whatever reason, are you no longer allowed to activate triggered abilities as listed in the text box? EDIT: I see this matter has already been addressed in this thread. Apologies.

Oh! Something else, just occurred to me. When it comes to resolving an action, does this include all the possible responses to the initial action? In other words, say it's the beginning of my operations phase. I play a Shub character. Do I then immediately play Shadowed Woods in response? Or do I play the Shub character ... allow my opponent an action ... then respond to with Shadowed Woods? I can only assume the response is immediate, as this is what ultimately results in the dreaded "infinite loop" mechanic.

 Thanks for humoring a new player!

[Deek 0]

Ohh. I see my question regarding story resolution has been address here, assuming that is in fact correct.

[Dadajef 0]

Deek said:

Oh! Something else, just occurred to me. When it comes to resolving an action, does this include all the possible responses to the initial action? In other words, say it's the beginning of my operations phase. I play a Shub character. Do I then immediately play Shadowed Woods in response? Or do I play the Shub character ... allow my opponent an action ... then respond to with Shadowed Woods? I can only assume the response is immediate, as this is what ultimately results in the dreaded "infinite loop" mechanic.

 Thanks for humoring a new player!

For the windows response you play like this :

1) You take an action, you must resolve entirely the action (play your character and put into play).
       a) Resolve permanent effect if necessary.
       b) Forced Response must be done (The active player begins, then the non-active player).
       c) Response are possible (The active player first make response if able, then the non-active player).

2) Your opponent can make an action, because you take an action in 1)
       a) Resolve permanent effect if necessary.
       b) Forced Response...
       c) Response

3) You can make an action, because your opponent take an action in 2)
....

This article could help you : http://chris-long.com/cthulhu/cthulhuGlossary.cfm

 

[Deek 0]

Wow, thanks Dadajef! That really helps, and the link you posted is brilliant. The different between action and Action really messed with my conception, and the priority issue is an absolute mind-bender with only the rule book to work from. The fact that the active player always has first crack as disrupts is an important distinction. In the case of forced responses, the active player goes first, that also makes perfect sense.

On several occasions, the flowchart states, "If any X are triggered/played, each one is its own action, so you must begin the flowchart again at step 2, and return here once finished." This would indicate that priority changes each time a disrupt, forced response or response is played. Step 2 states, "Take an action, thus passing priority." That makes sense.

I play a character in my operations phase, an action that passes priority to the defender. Disrupts are passed (they operate on their own internal priority) and there are no forced responses to trigger. The response window opens and the defender now has priority to respond or pass, correct? Your above post states that the active player first makes a response, if able. Are you simply referring to the player with priority as the active player, or do I misunderstand the process? Does the active/attacking player get to respond to his own action prior to the defender? I have a feeling this is merely an issue of semantics.

I'm also a tad confused when it comes to retroactive responses. I play a character in my operations phase, the defender responds (followed by any disrupts, permanent effects, forced responses and additional responses to his initial response). Once his response and any subsequent actions are fully resolved, do I (the active player) then get a chance to respond to my character entering play? Or, should the defender play a response, does that in turn negate the active player's ability to respond to his own action? It seems like the response mechanic can get pretty deep should there by a lengthy string of responses to responses.

He makes a good point in the last sentence of the Glossary link, "Moral of the story is, don't think too much about it and just enjoy this wonderful game. :-)" I may have to abide by that!

[Chevee 0]

 I asked basically the same story question about a month ago.    I emailed the question to FFG and never got a response.

 

Somewhere in the flow chart, a step needs added to indicate WHEN a story is resolved and whether success tokens are removed at that exact moment or later in the process as with the characters... there are timing issues such as:

 

I'm defending and win a story during the Investigation struggle... the rules state that I immediately win the story and all success tokens are removed.  Fine.  That's simple enough, remove tokens, no need to check the score as  I have already won the story... BUT, my characters are not un-committed until after a set of responses and checked and both players are able to take actions... so, are my characters still committed to a story that doesn't exist?

My original question specifically focused on Descendant of Eibon.  If he is in my discard pile and my opponent wins a story  with a skill check, when does that resolve and when are my success tokens removed?  Before or after the white actions box? If after, I could spend success tokens that are about to be removed to get Descendant back?  Obviously, if it's before players get actions, I wouldn't be able to do that....

 

Marius informed me that there is a "5th struggle" which is the skill check... but that isn't addressed anywhere in the rules or faq.

 

 

Chevee

[Deek 0]

I'm working under the assumption that the skill "struggle" is part of the non-action sequence (the gray box).

The rules state that no actions (disrupts and forced responses aside) may be taken until all of the stories with committed characters have been resolved, and determining success appears to be part of that resolution process. The section "Determine Success" on page 10 of the core rule book states, "If the total skill value of the active player exceeds ... then the active player may place a success token on his side of the story being resolved." This leads me to believe that the story is not officially resolved until the skill comparison is made. Otherwise, it would have said something akin to, "Once a story is resolved, determine success by comparing the skill totals." Each story must be completely resolved, meaning all three skill checks must be made assuming all three stories are contested, before actions can be taken that respond to the outcome (again, assuming no disrupts or forced responses).

However, a story can be won BEFORE it is resolved, bypassing the skill struggle ... at least, that's my understanding ...

Mind you, I've only played once.

[Dadajef 0]

@Deek "Does the active/attacking player get to respond to his own action prior to the defender?" Yes, the active player is always prior for all triggered effects. So if you play something and have a card which can Response to this something (for example after your character enters in play) and your opponent also, you play your Response first, then your opponent.

@ Random, p. 10 from rules : "Characters that were committed to a story that was won are no longer committed to any story". So if a story has been won by investigation struggle, all characters committed in this story are immediately uncommitted from the story, then you can continue the resolution for the other stories.

Your success token are removed immediately (during the green box) when the story has been won, so you couldn't spend  tokens to take your descendant in the discard pile. But, remember you can play  actions (white box) before resolution (step 5.5) so if you see you will lose a story during the resolution step, spend your success token before the resolutions to return the descendant in your hand.
 

[Dadajef 0]

Hey guys read the rules ! p.9 Resolving a Story card : 4 struggles + skill check. All are in the green box (and yes the english rule detailed Turn Sequence forgets the skill check in the green box). 

[Deek 0]

Dadajef said:

@Deek "Does the active/attacking player get to respond to his own action prior to the defender?" Yes, the active player is always prior for all triggered effects. So if you play something and have a card which can Response to this something (for example after your character enters in play) and your opponent also, you play your Response first, then your opponent.

If that's the case, I'm having a hard time deciphering the Glossary priority diagram. In his example, the active player plays Shotgun Blast. The defender then responds by triggering the Field Researcher's response text. Are you saying the active player could potentially respond to his own Shotgun Blast prior to the defender triggering his character's text box ability? Is that not two actions in a row for the active player? What about priority passing each time an action is played, according to the diagram? Why is priority even a necessary concept if the active player always has first opportunity to respond?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm simply having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Assuming the active player always gets to respond first, shouldn't the diagram read:

1. Active player plays Shotgun Blast, targeting opponent's Field Researcher.

    1. Active player passes Disrupt.
    2. Defending player passes Disrupt.

    * Shotgun Blast resolves. No Forced Responses trigger.

    1. Active player passes Response.

2. Defending player triggers Field Researcher's Response text.

[Deek 0]

Dadajef said:

Hey guys read the rules ! p.9 Resolving a Story card : 4 struggles + skill check. All are in the green box (and yes the english rule detailed Turn Sequence forgets the skill check in the green box). 

Yup. That pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of that particular question. Step five is clearly listed as "Determine Success", which in turn makes it part of the gray/green box.

[Dadajef 0]

No the step 5.7 is to say it's the moment you can play Response to Struggle (ex the Response from the Monster Hunter) or success (= token placed because you win the check skill during the story resolution like the Response from King Kuranes, Clover Club Regular, Mnomquah, etc...). It's not to say you determine the success during this step !

[Deek 0]

Oh, indeed. I was simply reiterating that the "Determine Success" step of the story resolution sequence (step 5 within "Resolving a Story Card" on page 9, the 5th struggle) is in fact part of the green box, wherein you cannot play responses. As you've said, you have to wait until 5.7, after all stories have been resolved. Right?

[Dadajef 0]

Deek said:

Dadajef said:

@Deek "Does the active/attacking player get to respond to his own action prior to the defender?" Yes, the active player is always prior for all triggered effects. So if you play something and have a card which can Response to this something (for example after your character enters in play) and your opponent also, you play your Response first, then your opponent.

If that's the case, I'm having a hard time deciphering the Glossary priority diagram. In his example, the active player plays Shotgun Blast. The defender then responds by triggering the Field Researcher's response text. Are you saying the active player could potentially respond to his own Shotgun Blast prior to the defender triggering his character's text box ability? Is that not two actions in a row for the active player? What about priority passing each time an action is played, according to the diagram? Why is priority even a necessary concept if the active player always has first opportunity to respond?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm simply having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Assuming the active player always gets to respond first, shouldn't the diagram read:

1. Active player plays Shotgun Blast, targeting opponent's Field Researcher.

    1. Active player passes Disrupt.
    2. Defending player passes Disrupt.

    * Shotgun Blast resolves. No Forced Responses trigger.

    1. Active player passes Response.

2. Defending player triggers Field Researcher's Response text.

The response is played because the effect that triggers it has resolved. You shotgun the field researcher, he goes to the discard pile, the requirement for the response is true, your opponent play the response (you have no Response to play because you have no characters entering in your discard pile). Take another example with the small price to pay. You have a card in play with the Response "After this character goes insane make this...". You play the Small price to pay, choose your character to goes insane and kill the opponent field's reschearcher. You and your opponent can now play the response of your characters both in response from a same effect (the small price to pay), the active player will resolve his effect first (see faq under Simultaneous effects).

 

 

 

[Deek 0]

Dadajef said:

The response is played because the effect that triggers it has resolved. You shotgun the field researcher, he goes to the discard pile, the requirement for the response is true, your opponent play the response (you have no Response to play because you have no characters entering in your discard pile). Take another example with the small price to pay. You have a card in play with the Response "After this character goes insane make this...". You play the Small price to pay, choose your character to goes insane and kill the opponent field's reschearcher. You and your opponent can now play the response of your characters both in response from a same effect (the small price to pay), the active player will resolve his effect first (see faq under Simultaneous effects).

Thanks, Dadajef! Your expertise and patience are much appreciated.

[Dadajef 0]

By playing, you will see how it's logical and generally situations are clear, you play something then your opponent play something and if you have some simultaneous effect, the active player resolve first.

[Deek 0]

Yes. I think my imagination is running away with me. Having only played a single match, I'm concocting all manner of complex card priority situations in my head that will likely never occur during the course of an actual game. Cheers!

[Dam the Man 84]

It's all that Sanity you lost while learning the rules and playing AH .

[Deek 0]

Dam said:

It's all that Sanity you lost while learning the rules and playing AH .

True that! If a game fails to crush my soul beneath layers of punishing complexity, I assume something is amiss.

[Chevee 0]

Dadajef said:

@ Random, p. 10 from rules : "Characters that were committed to a story that was won are no longer committed to any story". So if a story has been won by investigation struggle, all characters committed in this story are immediately uncommitted from the story, then you can continue the resolution for the other stories.

Your success token are removed immediately (during the green box) when the story has been won, so you couldn't spend  tokens to take your descendant in the discard pile. But, remember you can play  actions (white box) before resolution (step 5.5) so if you see you will lose a story during the resolution step, spend your success token before the resolutions to return the descendant in your hand.
 

 

I'm perfectly fine with this method and have been playing that way as well... just wish it were identified since the FAQ seems to point to the "flow chart" on many occasions and the flow chart is inherently flawed.

Basically, what we need is a "Story Resolution" addition to the grey/green box and changing the wording on "Characters are uncommited from stories." to reflect that this only applies to stories that were not resolved.

 

Chevee

[Deek 0]

Once the stories are resolved and play moves to responses, in what order do the response windows open up? In the same order the stories were resolved? Start with the first story, play responses to the struggles in order, responses to the success, etc. Move to the second story (assuming there is one), respond to struggles, success, etc. ...?

[Dadajef 0]

The active player begins, he play a card or trigger an ability in Response to struggle from a story (the first, the second, the third story as he wants), then its opponent can make a Response to struggle, then the active player again, etc...

@Random : The last step "Characters are uncommitted from stories" is for characters in stories which have been not won. All stories resolve when you have a character in the story. If you don't win the story you must wait the end of the phase to uncommit characters from stories, you don't remove immediately characters from a story after the skill check. You resolve all stories where you have characters, then play response to struggle and success, then can play actions like the all "Actions may be taken" boxes and finally you uncommit your characters. The only exception is when you win a story during the resolution (green box), you uncommit immediately the characters from this story.

 

 

[Deek 0]

Dadajef's quote: By playing, you will see how it's logical and generally situations are clear, you play something then your opponent play something and if you have some simultaneous effect, the active player resolve first.

Wow. The quote functionality on this forum is infuriating.

Sorry to dredge this back up, again. I have a follow-up question. When simultaneous effects are resolved out of sequence, does priority remain with the player who had it prior to the resolution of the simultaneous effects?

Continuing with Dadajef's example:

1. As the active player, I play Small Price to Pay.
2. I choose my character to go insane and an opponent's character to take a wound (and die, in this case).
3. My character has a Response: to going insane, his has a Response: to being removed from play, resulting in simultaneous effects that need to be resolved.
4. Though priority has technically been passed to my opponent (as I have played Small Price to Pay, thus taking an action and passing priority), I still resolve my character's response first, as the active player, in accordance with the FAQ entry discussing simultaneous effects.
5. My opponent (the defending player) then resolves his response.

Now my question, again:

At this point, does my opponent then regain the priority he had prior to the simultaneous responses? Or do I (the active player) now have priority, as my opponent was the last one to take an action: resolving his response to his character being removed from play ...?

[Chevee 0]

I thought it was answered pretty well on the first page:

 

1) You take an action, you must resolve entirely the action (play your character and put into play).
       a) Resolve permanent effect if necessary.
       b) Forced Response must be done (The active player begins, then the non-active player).
       c) Response are possible (The active player first make response if able, then the non-active player).

2) Your opponent can make an action, because you take an action in 1)
       a) Resolve permanent effect if necessary.
       b) Forced Response...
       c) Response

3) You can make an action, because your opponent take an action in 2)

 

But..... here you go.  A super detailed look at the action window and subsequent response windows.

 

 

1) Action Window Opens

            A) Active player may take action

                         - resolve permanent effect if neccessary

                         a1 -  Forced Response window opens

                                    a1.1 - Active player forced response

                                                 a1.1.1 - Active player may respond

                                                 a1.1.2 - non-active player may respond

                                                 a1.1.2 - return to a1.1.1 as necessary

                                     a1.2 - non-active player forced response

                                                 a1.2.1 - active player may respond

                                                 a1.2.2 - non-active player may respond

                                                 a1.2.3 - return to a1.2.1 as necessary

                                     a1.3 - return to a1.1 as necessary

                         a2 - Response window opens

                                     a2.1 - Active player may play response

                                                  a2.1.1 - active player may respond

                                                  a2.1.2 - non-active player may respond

                                                  a2.1.3 - return to a2.1.1 as necessary

                                     a2.2- non-active player may play response

                                                  a2.2.1 - active player may respond

                                                  a2.2.2 - non-active player may respond

                                                  a2.2.3 - return to a2.2.1 as necessary

                                     a2.3- return to a2.1 as necessary

             B) Non-Active player may take action

                         - resolve permanent effect if necessary

                         b1 - Forced Response window opens

                                      b1.1 - Active player forced response

                                                  b1.1.1 - Active player may respond

                                                  b1.1.2 - non-active player may respond

                                                  b1.1.2 - return to b1.1.1 as necessary

                                      b1.2 - non-active player forced response

                                                  b1.2.1 - active player may respond

                                                  b1.2.2 - non-active player may respond

                                                  b1.2.3 - return to b1.2.1 as necessary

                                      b1.3 - return to b1.1 as necessary

                         b2 - Response window opens

                                      b2.1 - Active player may play response

                                                  b2.1.1 - active player may respond

                                                  b2.1.2 - non-active player may respond

                                                  b2.1.3 - return to b2.1.1 as necessary

                                      b2.2- non-active player may play response

                                                  b2.2.1 - active player may respond

                                                  b2.2.2 - non-active player may respond

                                                  b2.2.3 - return to b2.2.1 as necessary

                                      b2.3- return to b2.1 as necessary
    
             C) Return to A as necessary

 

Chevee

[Deek 0]

Random_Person said:

I thought it was answered pretty well on the first page:

Thanks for the detail, Random.

I realize the majority of you take this fundamental stuff for granted. Believe me, I would've taken this subject to the land of PM from the start to avoid unnecessary embarrassment, were that an option. (On a side note, does this forum have private message functionality? If it does, sign me up for a window seat on the short bus, 'cause I can't find it!)

My confusion stems from the fact that your explanation of the action and response windows seem to run counter to what is written in the (albiet extremely vague) core set rules of play. Page 12 states, "After a player has taken and resolved an action, he must allow his opponent the opportunity to take and resolve an action before he can take another, etc." It then goes on to define Response, Forced Response and Disrupt as "actions," with disrupts providing the only exception to the rule. Compared to that, now I'm being told that the active player actually has first priority for all actions. He can play a card (Small Price to Play) and claim first response (response to insanity) ... intuitively, I would assume that he would have to wait for his opponent to respond (response to the destruction of his character), as priority was passed when he played the card (Small Price to Play).

Hopefully the root of my confusion makes sense. You couldn't possibly explain it any clearer, however! No worries.

Really, were I not the OCD type who dives into FAQs and online forums prior to his first session to ensure a reasonable understanding of the rules, there's no way I would have interpreted the sequence properly.

Cheers.

[Chevee 0]

 Yes, it's all vague and misleading.

 

Think of it like this:

I take action

You Take action.

I take action

You take action

..... until we both pass.

 

Now, for each of those actions there is a response window.  In the event that both players have forced responses triggered by an event, the active player gets to resolve theirs first.  In the event that both players have a response, active player gets to go first.  

Now, disrupts happen before all of that... because if you disrupt an action from happening, none of those triggers resolve.  If, as active player, you decide to disrupt your own action for some reason, then you get to do that first also.

 

I agree that the rule book sucks for this, but the FAQ cleaned it up nicely:

"Responses are played after the resolution of the action or framework game event that meets their play requirement, but before the next player action is taken, or before the next game event resolves.  Any number of responses.... blah blah.... starting with the active player.  Once both players pass a response opportunity, play proceeds to the next action or play event."

and then

"Forced responses should always trigger immediately..."

Implying that the forced response window opens before the response window.

 

Chevee