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RayGuns

Special rules for S-Foils.

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We all know that the S-Foils upgrade was added to the X-Wing to beef up this iconic star-fighter, but should other ships that have S-Foils (such as the B-Wing) also have special S-Foil rules?

Edited by RayGuns

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Surprising news... for me this is new.
Some of you might already know this, but did you know that you can have a B-Wing with articulating S-Foils?

https://www.shapeways.com/product/M336ALXAH/4-pack-b-wing-s-foil-hinge

710x528_15256340_9053451_1496759326.jpg

Has anyone "Turn your factory stock B-Wing into the ship it was meant to be" using these parts on one of their B-Wings? If so, is it something you recommend?

 

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Aren't the s-foils on the b-wing really just to make it land more easily?

ARC-170 having s-foils could be something but it seems those are really just to allow more release of heat. I'm not sure why they are ever closed, honestly.

Shuttles have folding wings but those again seem to be more about landing than changing combat potential.

T70 could get an s-foil bonus since they come from the same lineage as the T65.

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4 minutes ago, Ixidor said:

Aren't the s-foils on the b-wing really just to make it land more easily?

ARC-170 having s-foils could be something but it seems those are really just to allow more release of heat. I'm not sure why they are ever closed, honestly.

Shuttles have folding wings but those again seem to be more about landing than changing combat potential.

T70 could get an s-foil bonus since they come from the same lineage as the T65.

In landing mode they ought to get similar benefits to the U-Wing.  Maybe they will (at least the shuttle).

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2 hours ago, RayGuns said:

Surprising news... for me this is new.
Some of you might already know this, but did you know that you can have a B-Wing with articulating S-Foils?

https://www.shapeways.com/product/M336ALXAH/4-pack-b-wing-s-foil-hinge

710x528_15256340_9053451_1496759326.jpg

Has anyone "Turn your factory stock B-Wing into the ship it was meant to be" using these parts on one of their B-Wings? If so, is it something you recommend?

 

That last one wants me to order some and paint them all like penguins...

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The X-wings are the only ships where I can see S-foils actually having an impact on performance, considering they're the only ones that it affects engine position (greater vertical spread + thrust differential = increased torque when pitching up/down. Since the Lore behind a Tallon Roll is pretty much a High Yo-Yo in Space it makes sense the X-wing would gain that bit of supermaneuverability when the foils are open).

It kind of stinks that S-foils take up your Mod slot, tho. It has such a huge effect on how the X-wing flies that it's almost mandatory to take. I hope the mod is going away and that it will be a built-in aspect of the X-wing under 2nd Ed.

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5 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

The X-wings are the only ships where I can see S-foils actually having an impact on performance, considering they're the only ones that it affects engine position (greater vertical spread + thrust differential = increased torque when pitching up/down. Since the Lore behind a Tallon Roll is pretty much a High Yo-Yo in Space it makes sense the X-wing would gain that bit of supermaneuverability when the foils are open).

It kind of stinks that S-foils take up your Mod slot, tho. It has such a huge effect on how the X-wing flies that it's almost mandatory to take. I hope the mod is going away and that it will be a built-in aspect of the X-wing under 2nd Ed.

It's still there in 2e, but it's acalled a Configuration - a new slot type specifically designed for this kind of card, which shows how a ship is set up, rather than how it's been modified.  So, TIE/x7 and TIE/d, TIE Shuttle etc, might be Configurations.

And most of them are not separate cards anyway (C.f. Advanced Targetting Computer, Adaptive Ailerons, etc).  S Foils is because it needs to be flipped during the game. 

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Yes. The answer is yes. Alex Davy hinted in the team covenant demo game, (at least that was my read? Maybe it was the reveal panel? Whatever) that one thing they did in second edition was break out the "configuration" card for ships that had variable flight modes. Like the X-wing and U-wing. It is conceivable that they will build into the game as it goes if not at release configuration support for many ships. The Lambda class shuttle, B-wing, and others could make use of this mechanic. 

Edited by ForceSensitive
Misnamed the mechanic.

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26 minutes ago, Ixidor said:

Aren't the s-foils on the b-wing really just to make it land more easily?


Yup, which is also the only purpose they serve on the X-Wing.  Opened, they give the B-Wing and the X-Wing greater spread on the origin of fire, while possibly also allowing for better cooling or whatever.

But the only reason you would close them is to make landing on the surface or in a hangar easier, because with your S-Foils opened on a B-Wing or X-Wing you'd have to have absurdly long ladders and landing gear.




Aside from one (pretty crummy) arcade game on the Nintendo 64 where closing S-Foils gave you a little temporary boost of speed before they'd immediately reopen, opening and closing S-Foils has never had any use in combat.  That is, you'd gain no benefit at all from closing your foils during combat.  On the X-Wing especially, open your foils spread your four engine ports farther apart, giving you better differential thrust vectors, meaning you'd be more maneuverable with the S-Foils opened, not less.  We always see X-Wings "accelerating" to attack speed after their foils have been opened, and even Luke notes that "we're going in, and we're going in full throttle" in the Death Star trench.  If X-Wings were faster with their foils closed (they aren't, at least canonically), then we'd have seen the X-Wings in the trench saving precious seconds by making the run with their foils closed (especially because they were only firing proton torpedos, which launch from the fuselage and wouldn't have any function tied to the wings).

We've since recently seen two canon instances of S-Foils on X-Wings being closed during combat: once when Poe has to squeeze through a narrow hole in Star Killer base and once when Hera needs to squeeze under the sensor array on top of a Star Destroyer.  In these cases, closing the S-Foils is just a means to temporarily decrease the profile of the ship (it's not done for "boosts" of speed or anything like that).



So, basically, the Opening/Closing cycling of X-Wings having an effect on their performance in X-Wing is completely unthematic. But people have long wanted to be able to "lock s-foils into attack position," so I guess they gave the people what they wanted.
 

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Conversely, if you grew up ont he Rogue Squadron games, which I and many, many others did, those S Foils working is highly thematic.  The X and B Wing both closed their foils during flight for a temporary speed boost and pitch manoeuvrability boost at the expense of shooting and roll/yaw manoeuvrability.

So YMMV.

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Just now, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Yup, which is also the only purpose they serve on the X-Wing.  Opened, they give the B-Wing and the X-Wing greater spread on the origin of fire, while possibly also allowing for better cooling or whatever.

But the only reason you would close them is to make landing on the surface or in a hangar easier, because with your S-Foils opened on a B-Wing or X-Wing you'd have to have absurdly long ladders and landing gear.




Aside from one (pretty crummy) arcade game on the Nintendo 64 where closing S-Foils gave you a little temporary boost of speed before they'd immediately reopen, opening and closing S-Foils has never had any use in combat.  That is, you'd gain no benefit at all from closing your foils during combat.  On the X-Wing especially, open your foils spread your four engine ports farther apart, giving you better differential thrust vectors, meaning you'd be more maneuverable with the S-Foils opened, not less.  We always see X-Wings "accelerating" to attack speed after their foils have been opened, and even Luke notes that "we're going in, and we're going in full throttle" in the Death Star trench.  If X-Wings were faster with their foils closed (they aren't, at least canonically), then we'd have seen the X-Wings in the trench saving precious seconds by making the run with their foils closed (especially because they were only firing proton torpedos, which launch from the fuselage and wouldn't have any function tied to the wings).

We've since recently seen two canon instances of S-Foils on X-Wings being closed during combat: once when Poe has to squeeze through a narrow hole in Star Killer base and once when Hera needs to squeeze under the sensor array on top of a Star Destroyer.  In these cases, closing the S-Foils is just a means to temporarily decrease the profile of the ship (it's not done for "boosts" of speed or anything like that).



So, basically, the Opening/Closing cycling of X-Wings having an effect on their performance in X-Wing is completely unthematic. But people have long wanted to be able to "lock s-foils into attack position," so I guess they gave the people what they wanted.
 

Actually, Yes, it is more maneuverable with the S-foils open, but, when they are closed, you are no longer powering the weapons, freeing up some extra juice to devote to the engines. They did not close their S-foils for the trench run because your deflector shields work better when your foils are open, and you are more capable of dodging laser fire while they are open.

And it isn't just one "crumby" simulator for 64, it is all three of the Rogue Squadron games (one of my favorite game trilogies). Plus I am rather certain they do this in all four of the X-wing and TIE fighter games (accepted as the best star wars simulator EVER.)

Edit: You are messing with the wrong crowd. Nearly everyone on here grew up on the X-wing series or the Rogue squadron series.

Edited by GLEXOR

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20 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Yup, which is also the only purpose they serve on the X-Wing.  Opened, they give the B-Wing and the X-Wing greater spread on the origin of fire, while possibly also allowing for better cooling or whatever.

But the only reason you would close them is to make landing on the surface or in a hangar easier, because with your S-Foils opened on a B-Wing or X-Wing you'd have to have absurdly long ladders and landing gear.




Aside from one (pretty crummy) arcade game on the Nintendo 64 where closing S-Foils gave you a little temporary boost of speed before they'd immediately reopen, opening and closing S-Foils has never had any use in combat.  That is, you'd gain no benefit at all from closing your foils during combat.  On the X-Wing especially, open your foils spread your four engine ports farther apart, giving you better differential thrust vectors, meaning you'd be more maneuverable with the S-Foils opened, not less.  We always see X-Wings "accelerating" to attack speed after their foils have been opened, and even Luke notes that "we're going in, and we're going in full throttle" in the Death Star trench.  If X-Wings were faster with their foils closed (they aren't, at least canonically), then we'd have seen the X-Wings in the trench saving precious seconds by making the run with their foils closed (especially because they were only firing proton torpedos, which launch from the fuselage and wouldn't have any function tied to the wings).

We've since recently seen two canon instances of S-Foils on X-Wings being closed during combat: once when Poe has to squeeze through a narrow hole in Star Killer base and once when Hera needs to squeeze under the sensor array on top of a Star Destroyer.  In these cases, closing the S-Foils is just a means to temporarily decrease the profile of the ship (it's not done for "boosts" of speed or anything like that).



So, basically, the Opening/Closing cycling of X-Wings having an effect on their performance in X-Wing is completely unthematic. But people have long wanted to be able to "lock s-foils into attack position," so I guess they gave the people what they wanted.
 

At 2:35 in this clip from a (lacklustre) space battle in rebels, Hera closes her S-foils mid battle to do some sort of flip move 

 

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13 minutes ago, GLEXOR said:

Actually, Yes, it is more maneuverable with the S-foils open, but, when they are closed, you are no longer powering the weapons, freeing up some extra juice to devote to the engines.


Except that you are still powering the weapons when they are closed, because in both FFG's version and in the scene from Rebels involving Hera, attacking while your foils closed is possible.  Maybe you're powering them slightly less, but the decrease in attack dice (per FFG's rule) could also represent the reduced spread of fire that the foils being closed presents.

Now, I agree that diverting power from the blasters to the engines (or shields) could be beneficial, but this can be done independently from closing the S-Foils...  like, you could reroute power without opening or closing the wings.


 

Quote

Edit: You are messing with the wrong crowd. Nearly everyone on here grew up on the X-wing series or the Rogue squadron series.


Umm, as did I, and you know what I never remember doing in X-Wing, TIE Fighter, or X-Wing vs TIE Fighter?  Closing my S-Foils for any sort of tactical advantage.  Now, I was redistributing power levels between systems all the time, but that had nothing to do with the position of the S-Foils...? 

Maybe you meant the X-Wing Comic series or the X-Wing (Rogue and Wraith) book series?  I also read the vast majority of those, and can't recall a single instance of S-Foils being closed in combat for tactical advantage.




The S-Foils on X-Wings and B-Wings have, for nearly forty years of material, always closed merely to reduce the ship's height for landing/boarding purposes.  Nothing more, until some practically on rails N64 arcade video game where you'd shoot down fifty TIES per battle wanted the C > button to do something in the game. 

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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Just now, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Umm, as did I, and you know what I never remember doing in X-Wing, TIE Fighter, or X-Wing vs TIE Fighter?  Closing my S-Foils for any sort of tactical advantage.  Now, I was redistributing power levels between systems all the time, but that had nothing to do with the position of the S-Foils...?

I said I was not sure about the X-Wing games, as I have not yet had the pleasure of playing them. 

Just now, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Except that you are still powering the weapons when they are closed, because in both FFG's version and in the scene from Rebels involving Hera, attacking while your foils closed is possible.  Maybe you're powering them slightly less, but the decrease in attack dice (per FFG's rule) could also represent the reduced spread of fire that the foils being closed presents.

Now, I agree that diverting power from the blasters to the engines (or shields) could be beneficial, but this can be done independently from closing the S-Foils...  like, you could reroute power without opening or closing the wings.

When the wings are closed, there HAS to be less power to the guns, one of the primary functions of the foils is to cool your weapons, and if full power still goes to them, they will overheat. And yes, you can shoot with them closed, but it is not a super great idea, Wedge fought an entire battle with them closed. 

The shields being stronger when open is not due to the power being devoted to them, it is due to the shape and magnitude of the shield envelope.

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

We've since recently seen two canon instances of S-Foils on X-Wings being closed during combat: once when Poe has to squeeze through a narrow hole in Star Killer base and once when Hera needs to squeeze under the sensor array on top of a Star Destroyer.

If you watch very closely, Wedge appears to be closing his S-foils when flying through the part of the Death Star that knocked off the Falcon's sensor dish.

Quote

The S-Foils on X-Wings and B-Wings have, for nearly forty years of material, always closed merely to reduce the ship's height for landing/boarding purposes.  Nothing more, until some practically on rails N64 arcade video game where you'd shoot down fifty TIES per battle wanted the C > button to do something in the game. 

If you think about it, closing the S-foils increases the horizontal spread of the X-wing's engines, which would improve yaw performance.

Also, closing the S-foils in the X-Wing games shut off your cannon entirely. However I think that was as much a technology limitation as anything else (IE, you CAN still fire torpedoes with S-foils closed, and if you do so on the B-wing, they fire from where the wing is in the "S-foils deployed" position. The game was probably unable to account for the change in gun position, so they just locked them out entirely as a work-around).

Edited by Ambaryerno

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32 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Umm, as did I, and you know what I never remember doing in X-Wing, TIE Fighter, or X-Wing vs TIE Fighter?  Closing my S-Foils for any sort of tactical advantage.  Now, I was redistributing power levels between systems all the time, but that had nothing to do with the position of the S-Foils...?

You do close the s-foils automatically when entering hyperspace, actually.

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

But the only reason you would close them is to make landing on the surface or in a hangar easier, because with your S-Foils opened on a B-Wing or X-Wing you'd have to have absurdly long ladders and landing gear.

There would literally be no reason to ever have them closed outside of landing or taking off, if that were the case. But we see them in a number of situations being closed or transitioning outside of landing/takeoff. So there has to be a reason. (At least on the x-wing, I can't think of a point where the b-wing was transitioning unless Hera was doing something interesting maneuvering the prototype.)

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1 hour ago, GLEXOR said:

I said I was not sure about the X-Wing games, as I have not yet had the pleasure of playing them. 

When the wings are closed, there HAS to be less power to the guns, one of the primary functions of the foils is to cool your weapons, and if full power still goes to them, they will overheat. And yes, you can shoot with them closed, but it is not a super great idea, Wedge fought an entire battle with them closed. 

The shields being stronger when open is not due to the power being devoted to them, it is due to the shape and magnitude of the shield envelope.

The Rebels crew said in the post episode thing after Hera did it that gave them less of a spread, and cut down a bit on accuracy, so a 1 die drop works with that.

But, also in the same battle, Thrawn demonstrates the 2.0 version of “Ruthless”.

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Honestly, not a giant fan of sfoils

They're a teensy bit fiddly, and a saturation of them would quickly spiral into an annoying gimmick

I'm fine with them being unique to the X and U 

And undoubtedly the t-70 because of Poe's shenanigans in TLJ 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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