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jocke01

Explain cover too me

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I have read the rules reference, but I'm unsure how the cover rule works in this game.  The rules reference tells me that if I trace an imaginary line between the two units and something is in the way the unit have cover. It also mentions true line of sight and 50% obstruction. Can someone just spell it out for me?

 

IMG_20180516_114445285.jpg
If I draw a line between this piece of terrain the unit should have heavy cover. However in true line of sight the terrain piece doesn't obscure anyhting in true line of sight.


IMG_20180516_114218037.jpg

IMG_20180516_114228567.jpg

The barricade is between the at-rt and the unit, but they aren't obscured at all in true line of sigt. The cannon on the at-rt is even over the barricade. Should the unit have cover?


 


IMG_20180516_114240811.jpg

Here both a line and true line of sight is applied.


IMG_20180516_114321293.jpg

IMG_20180516_114329650.jpg

About 25% obstruction, but a line crosses a terrain piece.


IMG_20180516_114414791.jpg


IMG_20180516_114419592.jpg

Here the unit is way above the terrain piece, but it can clearly se the unit it fires upon so should it still have cover?

Edited by jocke01

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The designer has acknowledged that the rrg is lacking in properly describing how cover works.  In his clarification email, posted in this forum it is little more clearly described, and what is to be cleared up in the next rrg

 

A)pre setup - determine could this terrain block 50% of this unit yes/no

if yes what type of cover heavy or light?

Barricades are always heavy and Provide cover to troops but not to vehicles.

you would make this determination of this for each mini type and terrain.

ita important to note that this is the only time  that the 50% rule matters.

 

b) in game

determine cover - from the top of the mini unit leader can  you see 100% of the minis in unit including the base.

Yes? Then the defending  unit has no cover:

No? Draw a line from center base to center base to each mini in the unit, what terrain was passed through, this is the cover that is provided if half the minis in the unit or more are obscured.  Example: If 3 of the 5 units are obscured by the barricade the unit receives heavy cover.  If 2 of 5 units are obscured then they receive no cover.

It’s important to note that at this time the 50% rule no longer is important, that was an initial setup question, now you are just looking to see if you can or can not see 100% of the minis in the unit, including the base. If it’s blocked at all then you draw lines and apply cover as was agreed to in the initial setup.  That barricade is never going to provide cover to a vehicle because during setup it didn’t cover 50%

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35 minutes ago, azavander said:

from the top of the mini unit leader can  you see 100% of the minis in unit including the base.

Where does it say that?

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1 hour ago, Bdolfos said:

Where does it say that?

Unfortunately, the rules described by @azavander are not in the RRG yet. The lead designer has clarified via email that the LOS and cover rules are going to be changed and has provided the text for it here. In fact, you can find a lot of clarifications throughout this thread:

These rules will be included in the first update, so many of us have been using them. It’s much more clearly explained, and is a better rule, honestly.

edit: just to clarify, what @azavander summarized above is the designers’ clarification. So definitely follow what he said.

Edited by nashjaee

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1 hour ago, azavander said:

The designer has acknowledged that the rrg is lacking in properly describing how cover works.  In his clarification email, posted in this forum it is little more clearly described, and what is to be cleared up in the next rrg

 

A)pre setup - determine could this terrain block 50% of this unit yes/no

if yes what type of cover heavy or light?

Barricades are always heavy and Provide cover to troops but not to vehicles.

you would make this determination of this for each mini type and terrain.

ita important to note that this is the only time  that the 50% rule matters.

 

b) in game

determine cover - from the top of the mini unit leader can  you see 100% of the minis in unit including the base.

Yes? Then the defending  unit has no cover:

No? Draw a line from center base to center base to each mini in the unit, what terrain was passed through, this is the cover that is provided if half the minis in the unit or more are obscured.  Example: If 3 of the 5 units are obscured by the barricade the unit receives heavy cover.  If 2 of 5 units are obscured then they receive no cover.

It’s important to note that at this time the 50% rule no longer is important, that was an initial setup question, now you are just looking to see if you can or can not see 100% of the minis in the unit, including the base. If it’s blocked at all then you draw lines and apply cover as was agreed to in the initial setup.  That barricade is never going to provide cover to a vehicle because during setup it didn’t cover 50%

Ok I will go by this until we get an official clarification. Thank you

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@jocke01 your pictures are very helpful in understanding the different ways cover should be applied under the clarified cover rules, and the reasons why the clarification was so badly needed. The clarification is more intuitive and more streamlined. 

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Simple-  troops always have cover if the line goes through barricades or area terrain..... unless they are higher up in the air, like your pic of them ontop of the round container.

NO cover from the ATRT- barricade is to short... clear LOS, same goes for ATST and speeders.  Only cover if half the troops are up against the barricade.

 

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6 hours ago, chriscook said:

Simple-  troops always have cover if the line goes through barricades or area terrain..... unless they are higher up in the air, like your pic of them ontop of the round container.

This isn't completely accurate. All unit types always have cover if both are true: 1) the line goes through barricades or area terrain, AND 2) (at least half of) the defending minis are in any way obscured by the barricade/terrain when a line is drawn from the head of the attacking unit leader.

For barricades, that will only result in cover for trooper units as you say (never vehicles). Being against the barricade isn't a requirement in itself, beyond the conditions above being met.

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It is confusing, but a little bit of quick math can clear a lot of it up.

If two minis are same height (1"), and are both on a flat surface that does not provide elevation, a 1/2" barricade must obscure half of the mini, because the terrain does not get smaller or change angles the further away they get.

Which is to say, it's not that the height of the barricade that is making things difficult, it's that you're not getting low enough and at the right angle to truly see the LoS from the mini's perspective.

When in doubt, we like to use a laser to shoot from the middle of the mini.

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13 hours ago, Beerasaurus said:

It is confusing, but a little bit of quick math can clear a lot of it up.

If two minis are same height (1"), and are both on a flat surface that does not provide elevation, a 1/2" barricade must obscure half of the mini, because the terrain does not get smaller or change angles the further away they get.

Which is to say, it's not that the height of the barricade that is making things difficult, it's that you're not getting low enough and at the right angle to truly see the LoS from the mini's perspective.

When in doubt, we like to use a laser to shoot from the middle of the mini.

Perspective?

You don't seem to be using the rules correctly and have not accounted for perspective at all. If my eye level is taller than the wall I can see over it. How far behind the wall can I see? The maths is complicated, I haven't done trig for a long time and forget more than I learned. The rules here simply have us look over the head of the model firing.

los.jpg

The red model would (if we agreed that the barrier could provide cover to that model at the start of the game) be in cover the green would not.

Edited by Amanal
Just added clarrity to my last parragraph.

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The reason I said from the middle of the mini--which, unless I'm mistaken, is what FF has said--is because there is a logical assumption that 1) you're not firing from the absolute upright, and 2) your target is deliberately attempting to use the intervening cover.

Nobody is standing stock upright and letting a barricade only cover them from the waist down.

Just like the more meaningful interpretation of "Dodge" is using micro-cover, not actually dancing around in the open.

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You measure from the top of the models head. p31: "Line of sight is used to determine if one mini can see another mini. A player determines line of sight from the perspective of a mini, using a viewpoint where the center of the mini’s base meets the top of the mini’s sculpt."

I didn't worry about correcting the red/green pars in my diagram as they are clearly in cover or not and their height would make no difference. They should be equal to the blue bar "firing" model.

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From my understanding, in RAW, there is nothing about true LoS to determine cover: You determine the efficiency of a piece of terrain during setup for a particular model and that's it, it either applies or doesn't. If there's a piece of terrain between your models base center and his , that model is obscured.

Edited by Deuzerre

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This was also the big point of confusion in our tournament yesterday

You look from the top of the head to determine wether you see the model. But then the Designer and the RR divert. We played it atm that you check at the same time when you check for LOS wether the model is obscured more than half or not. It seemed to work ok but the current rules in the RR are very counterintuitive with certain obstacles because it asks to draw lines from base to base which doesnt work well at all if you have elevation.

Edited by Lancezh

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3 hours ago, Lancezh said:

This was also the big point of confusion in our tournament yesterday

You look from the top of the head to determine wether you see the model. But then the Designer and the RR divert. We played it atm that you check at the same time when you check for LOS wether the model is obscured more than half or not. It seemed to work ok but the current rules in the RR are very counterintuitive with certain obstacles because it asks to draw lines from base to base which doesnt work well at all if you have elevation.

That is the way it was written poorly in the rule book and not what the designer had said was intended in his clarification email.  I said it in the 2nd post and it’s also in the email compilation thread it’s meant to be check 50% before game. In game can I see 100%,  if yes, no cover, if it it obscured any %\amount was it determined before game that this provided cover when do % check, if yes apply cover. 

I think ultimately the revised way end up being far more intuitive and easy during game play because there is no argument on percentages of mini seen, because it no longer matters, it’s obscured or it’s not.

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49 minutes ago, Amanal said:

Sadly the time it is taking to get that rule from email to RRG is taking a very long time.

A long time according to what timeframe system?

 

I mean, even if we go by “the average time between faq updates for other games”, and HALVE it for a “priority” game...

 

... we’re still nowhere near long time yet...

Edited by Drasnighta

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