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defensive training + dual wielding

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1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

In terms of how the rules in both this game and Genesys operate, a shield is treated as being a weapon (unlike D&D), as shields tend to have a damage value and a critical rating.

You might feel differently, but for the folks who wrote these rules, shields = weapons.

I'm less familiar with Genesys and shields aren't common in FFGSW so it's never come up but I was guessing with the Elf character based on what Richardbruxton said. I can't find the pregen he's referring too but having just looked at the Genesys RAW I think he's mistaken because it's pretty clear that the Defensive Quality on both the Shield and the Sword are not +'s but flat ratings and should not stack. It's possible he's forgetting the Elf's Nimble Quality with counts as Defensive 1 against Melee and Ranged Attacks.

Edited by FuriousGreg

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4 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

I'm less familiar with Genesys...

Per page 87 of the Genesys core rulebook:

Defensive: An item with the Defensive quality increases the user's melee defense by its Defense rating.

And on page 105 of the same book, under "Melee and Ranged Defense," 2nd sentence, 2nd paragraph:

"You can think of this as sources that provide defense and sources that increase defense."

Which so happens to be the exact same wording that's used in the latest errata updates for all three product lines, and further goes to say that increase is the same as having a plus sign in front of it, and that they do indeed stack with each other and other sources that provide defense.  However, it's worth noting that the errata also indicates that defense (melee and ranged) caps at 4, so a PC wearing heavy armor (defense 1) wielding a fully-modded Lorrdian Gemstone (melee defense 2, ranged defense 2) and actively carrying a cortosis shield (melee defense 2, ranged defense 2) in hand (not strapped to their back) would only have a melee and ranged defense of 4.

So, Using not only the pre-gen Elf as an example (which can be found with a Google search fairly easily if one isn't too lazy) but also the verbiage in both Genesys and the errata seems pretty clear the intent is that the word "increases" in the above rules text is pretty **** indicative of the Defensive quality adding to any existing melee defense value.

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just for reference from a previous question  defensive training replaces the defence rating with your own rating = ranks in talent, so if you are fighting with a weapon with defensive 2 , and you have. 1 rank of defensive training you effectively override the defensive 2 with you 1 rank , leaving you with defensive 1. This and the fact that multiple weapons don't stack was confirmed by devs some time ago, the former in a question I asked as I assumed the higher would override , this talent takes precendent.

so ultimately you get the highest available rank of defensive , unless this is overridden by the defensive training talent so that it is lower. 

so if you have a 2 vibroswords you have defensive 1 because they don't stack as you still have defensive 1

If you have the same sword and a shield (defensive 2) you would have the higher so in this case defensive 2, but if you have defensive training 1 rank there is no poiant using the shield for its defensive qualify as you have defensive 1 again because of the talent (as daft as that may sound your training makes you more ineffective with defensive 2 weapons)

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1 hour ago, syrath said:

so ultimately you get the highest available rank of defensive , unless this is overridden by the defensive training talent so that it is lower. 

so if you have a 2 vibroswords you have defensive 1 because they don't stack as you still have defensive 1

Not quite.

Defensive Training supersedes any Defensive ranks the weapon (sword, shield, staff, pogo stick) might have, even if the weapon's original Defensive rating is higher, so that part is of what you said is true.

However, since the Defensive quality provided by Defensive Training increases the wielder's defense (as per what I posted above), then the Defensive 1 value provided by Defensive Training would indeed stack if you're using two weapons, as they both have Defensive 1 thanks to the talent, increasing the character's melee defense by a total of 2.

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8 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Not quite.

Defensive Training supersedes any Defensive ranks the weapon (sword, shield, staff, pogo stick) might have, even if the weapon's original Defensive rating is higher, so that part is of what you said is true.

However, since the Defensive quality provided by Defensive Training increases the wielder's defense (as per what I posted above), then the Defensive 1 value provided by Defensive Training would indeed stack if you're using two weapons, as they both have Defensive 1 thanks to the talent, increasing the character's melee defense by a total of 2.

Can you confirm that this is covered by the devs as the time I asked you only got to choose the highest since you couldn't benefit from both defensives, but as we both know a lot depends on who answered the question. 

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Shields are definitely categorised as weapons in this system, bot the Star Wars and Genesys books have shields listed in the Melee Weapon tables.

If you click on this link:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/8c/3f/8c3f798d-da6e-4350-885b-9f2367bfd1b8/realms_of_terrinoth_pcs_highres.pdf

 

you will be taken to a PDF FFG have listed under the support drop down here:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/genesys/

 

On the third and fourth page of that PDF is the character in question who has a defence of 4/3. To get that defence she has her species ability called Nimble which gives her a flat defence of 1/1. She then has two weapons listed with the defensive quality; a Shield and a Sword. The shield has Defensive 2, Deflective 2. The Sword has Defensive 1. There are no other sources of defence on the character.

 

When FFG say that two sources of defence don’t stack they mean anything that grants defence, they don’t mean anything that increases defence. This was not always the case, until Genesys was released FFG where a lot less consistent in what stacks and what doesn’t.

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There are multiple examples on the very first page of this thread (Developer answered questions) where the developers explain that you only get to count one weapon for the purposes of defensive qualities. In Star Wars (but apparently not in Genesys) the sources do not stack. This applies to using weapon and weapon as well as weapon and shield.

So, according to the developers, weilding two weapons with Defensive +3 gives you a total of +3 to your Melee defense because you only count the defense on one weapon. You don't get Defensive +6 for carrying two Defensive +3 weapons in the same way that you don't get Accurate +6 for weilding two weapons with Accurate +3.

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4 minutes ago, Dylan Vaughn said:

There are multiple examples on the very first page of this thread (Developer answered questions) where the developers explain that you only get to count one weapon for the purposes of defensive qualities. In Star Wars (but apparently not in Genesys) the sources do not stack. This applies to using weapon and weapon as well as weapon and shield.

So, according to the developers, weilding two weapons with Defensive +3 gives you a total of +3 to your Melee defense because you only count the defense on one weapon. You don't get Defensive +6 for carrying two Defensive +3 weapons in the same way that you don't get Accurate +6 for weilding two weapons with Accurate +3.

I think you will find that to be something they have changed their minds on, basically since introducing the limit of 4 Defence.

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10 hours ago, syrath said:

Can you confirm that this is covered by the devs as the time I asked you only got to choose the highest since you couldn't benefit from both defensives, but as we both know a lot depends on who answered the question. 

Yes, it's called the Errata that was released long after those dev answers, which themselves are ancient, with the last of the dev answers being "we're looking at it."

Short version, the dev answers you refer to are outdated, the updated errata/FAQ from FFG's own website is the most recent information.

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58 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Yes, it's called the Errata that was released long after those dev answers, which themselves are ancient, with the last of the dev answers being "we're looking at it."

Short version, the dev answers you refer to are outdated, the updated errata/FAQ from FFG's own website is the most recent information.

I know the errata for defense but I'm referring to the fact that two sources of the weapon quality stack

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3 hours ago, syrath said:

I know the errata for defense but I'm referring to the fact that two sources of the weapon quality stack

Again, see the recent errata and the language it uses, in particular around the word "increase."  It flat out says any instance that is "increase" stacks.  Can't make it any clearer than that.

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1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Again, see the recent errata and the language it uses, in particular around the word "increase."  It flat out says any instance that is "increase" stacks.  Can't make it any clearer than that.

Yes but giving someone defensive 1 then giving it again you are giving them something they already have. The errata only covers how defence works not how weapon qualities stack, which is the question i have specifically asked before, so have had a dev response that says that having two defensive weapons let's you apply those qualities either separately (ie you add the +1 twice) or that they stack, because I've been previously told they dont.

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Quote

“However, other sources increase defense. These sources say they ‘increase’ defense, or they list the defense provided as a number with a ‘+’ sign in front of it. These sources of defense stack, both with each other and with any sources that provide defense.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/f4/f8/f4f8ca5f-12c8-4960-84ca-dccde66fa743/eote_errata_v20.pdf

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37 minutes ago, syrath said:

Yes but giving someone defensive 1 then giving it again you are giving them something they already have. The errata only covers how defence works not how weapon qualities stack, which is the question i have specifically asked before, so have had a dev response that says that having two defensive weapons let's you apply those qualities either separately (ie you add the +1 twice) or that they stack, because I've been previously told they dont.

Perhaps at the time whoever told you that was correct, but with the new errata, that answer is no longer correct. 

However, no one is stopping you from ruling it however you want to rule it in your home game! 

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46 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Perhaps at the time whoever told you that was correct, but with the new errata, that answer is no longer correct. 

However, no one is stopping you from ruling it however you want to rule it in your home game! 

I'm fine either way but I'm that curious to know how the two weapon qualities interact, given the prior response , so I'll drop in the question again, I understand the thinking that having two weapon with defensive giving you each esp as they are passive, this is contrary to how the weapon qualities have been explained to me previously, although the majority of those are active qualities. I personally prefer that each weapon gets to apply it's defensive separately, makes more sense to me, there isn't anything I can see in the errata that answers whether two sources of defensive interact in either way.

Edited by syrath

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2 minutes ago, syrath said:

I'm fine either way but I'm that curious to know how the two weapon qualities interact, given the prior response , so I'll drop in the question again, I understand the thinking that having two weapon with defensive giving you each esp as they are passive, this is contrary to how the weapon qualities have been explained to me previously, although the majority of those are active qualities. I personally prefer that each weapon gets to apply it's defensive separately, makes more sense to me, there isn't anything I can see in the errata that answers whether two sources of defensive interact in either way.

Quote

“However, other sources increase defense. These sources say they ‘increase’ defense, or they list the defense provided as a number with a ‘+’ sign in front of it. These sources of defense stack, both with each other and with any sources that provide defense.

 

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