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Stormbourne

defensive training + dual wielding

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The answer, per the latest FAQ/Errata, is complicated.

Going by that, one rank in Defensive Training provides one rank of the Defensive quality, which is +1 to your melee defense.

Wielding two weapons, as I understand the errata, would indeed give you +2 to your melee defense.

However, the catch is that your defense, melee or ranged, cannot exceed a 4.  So if you were to get a second rank of Defensive Training, and be wearing armored robes (defense 1), your melee defense would be a 4, since that's the cap.

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1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The answer, per the latest FAQ/Errata, is complicated.

Going by that, one rank in Defensive Training provides one rank of the Defensive quality, which is +1 to your melee defense.

Wielding two weapons, as I understand the errata, would indeed give you +2 to your melee defense.

However, the catch is that your defense, melee or ranged, cannot exceed a 4.  So if you were to get a second rank of Defensive Training, and be wearing armored robes (defense 1), your melee defense would be a 4, since that's the cap.

I thought that different sources didn’t stack unless they specifically had the + in them?

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2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The answer, per the latest FAQ/Errata, is complicated.

Going by that, one rank in Defensive Training provides one rank of the Defensive quality, which is +1 to your melee defense.

Wielding two weapons, as I understand the errata, would indeed give you +2 to your melee defense.

However, the catch is that your defense, melee or ranged, cannot exceed a 4.  So if you were to get a second rank of Defensive Training, and be wearing armored robes (defense 1), your melee defense would be a 4, since that's the cap.

can i have a link to that faq?

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1 hour ago, Random Bystander said:

I thought that different sources didn’t stack unless they specifically had the + in them?

They don't, but if you read the text on Defensive, it says "adds +1 to your melee defense" per rank (or words to those effect, don't have my rule book on hand to cite the page and exact text).  Personally I think it's a bit silly that multiple weapons with Defensive (either from a talent or innate weapon quality) can stack, but I just simply noted what the FAQ/errata says.

Armor and Cover are both instances of providing a flat defense value, and thus don't stack with each other (much to the consternation of several frequent posters).

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34 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

They don't, but if you read the text on Defensive, it says "adds +1 to your melee defense" per rank (or words to those effect, don't have my rule book on hand to cite the page and exact text).  Personally I think it's a bit silly that multiple weapons with Defensive (either from a talent or innate weapon quality) can stack, but I just simply noted what the FAQ/errata says.

Armor and Cover are both instances of providing a flat defense value, and thus don't stack with each other (much to the consternation of several frequent posters).

i have the quoted text just above you first post

34 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Go to Products, click Star Wars, chose any of the three SWRPG game lines, and click under Support.

danke my interpretation of those "rules" in the FAQ is that if i choose to use my sabers for defense i get (saber 1 defense + talent) + (saber 2 defense + talent)

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10 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

that would be OP?

Ah, no. Sorry, I was going off memory; should've checked the book first. The weapon gains the Defensive quality.  I had it in my head that it was a ranked talent that just granted +1 defense if you were armed with a melee weapon! 

Lesson for today: check your sources.

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2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

They don't, but if you read the text on Defensive, it says "adds +1 to your melee defense" per rank (or words to those effect, don't have my rule book on hand to cite the page and exact text).  Personally I think it's a bit silly that multiple weapons with Defensive (either from a talent or innate weapon quality) can stack, but I just simply noted what the FAQ/errata says.

Armor and Cover are both instances of providing a flat defense value, and thus don't stack with each other (much to the consternation of several frequent posters).

Defensive Training actually says "weapon gains ranks in the Defensive item quality equal to the character’s ranks in Defensive Training (this replaces any ranks in Defensive the weapon already has)."  

Defensive quality is "A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon’s Defensive rating."

So I guess it does stack.

Edited by TheSapient

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4 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

 

Defensive Training actually says "weapon gains ranks in the Defensive item quality equal to the character’s ranks in Defensive Training (this replaces any ranks in Defensive the weapon already has)."  So it doesn't stack.

dual wielding still doubles tough yes as both weapons get effected?

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It may sound pedantic but there is no Dual Wielding in the RAW there is only Two-Weapon Combat and having a weapon in each hand. The distinction is important because unlike other systems there are no special rules for having a weapon in each hand.
 

On 5/15/2018 at 12:49 PM, Stormbourne said:

dual wielding still doubles tough yes as both weapons get effected?

No they would not because each weapon's Defensive Quality is a flat number not a "+" and do not stack with each other because they are the same source (both weapons). The Defensive Training Talent replaces that number it does not make it a "+".

Edited by FuriousGreg

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19 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

It may sound pedantic but there is no Dual Wielding in the RAW there is only Two-Weapon Combat and having a weapon in each hand. The distinction is important because unlike other systems there are no special rules for having a weapon in each hand.
 

No they would not because each weapon's Defensive Quality is a flat number not a "+" and do not stack with each other because they are the same source (both weapons). The Defensive Training Talent replaces that number it does not make it a "+".

A weapon's defensive quality is a flat number, but "A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon’s Defensive rating."  The definition of Defensive Quality says the flat number is an increase in the melee defense.  

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4 hours ago, TheSapient said:

A weapon's defensive quality is a flat number, but "A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon’s Defensive rating."  The definition of Defensive Quality says the flat number is an increase in the melee defense.  

Yes but it doesn't supersede the same source rule, so you only get the new Defensive rating from one weapon.

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Shall we ask FFG? Or shall we look at the FFG Genesys pregen character who uses the exact same rules, She is an Elf who therefore starts with Defence 1. She also has a Shield with Defensive 2 + Deflection 2, whilst also wielding a sword with Defensive 1. That character has Melee/Ranged Defence of 4/3... the only way for that to work is if Defensive from the Shield and Sword stack.

Here’s a link to the PDF on the Genesys product page:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/8c/3f/8c3f798d-da6e-4350-885b-9f2367bfd1b8/realms_of_terrinoth_pcs_highres.pdf

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9 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Shall we ask FFG? Or shall we look at the FFG Genesys pregen character who uses the exact same rules, She is an Elf who therefore starts with Defence 1. She also has a Shield with Defensive 2 + Deflection 2, whilst also wielding a sword with Defensive 1. That character has Melee/Ranged Defence of 4/3... the only way for that to work is if Defensive from the Shield and Sword stack.

Here’s a link to the PDF on the Genesys product page:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/8c/3f/8c3f798d-da6e-4350-885b-9f2367bfd1b8/realms_of_terrinoth_pcs_highres.pdf

Given the new defense rules in this game are undoubtedly inspired by how defense works in Genesys, it's a pretty sound conclusion that they would operate the same, and that in the instance of the OP's question, Defensive Training while wielding two melee weapons would stack.

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I tend to look at it differently

In one weapon you have defensive 1

In the other you have defensive 1 , 

Weapon qualities don't stack so at no point did you ever gain defensive 2 you had 2 copies of defensive 1 , so no they don't stack, your second didn't do anything for you

Edited by syrath

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12 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Shall we ask FFG? Or shall we look at the FFG Genesys pregen character who uses the exact same rules, She is an Elf who therefore starts with Defence 1. She also has a Shield with Defensive 2 + Deflection 2, whilst also wielding a sword with Defensive 1. That character has Melee/Ranged Defence of 4/3... the only way for that to work is if Defensive from the Shield and Sword stack.

Given the new defense rules in this game are undoubtedly inspired by how defense works in Genesys, it's a pretty sound conclusion that they would operate the same, and that in the instance of the OP's question, Defensive Training while wielding two melee weapons would stack.


One is a Sword (a weapon) one is from the Shield (not a weapon) so there is no conflict but the OP's example is two weapons which do not stack so you only get the benefit from one of them.

Edited by FuriousGreg

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2 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

One is a Sword (a weapon) one is from the Shield (not a weapon) so there is no conflict but the OP's example is two weapons which do not stack so you only get the benefit from one of them.

I saw the example above as one hand each much like two lightsabers

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1 minute ago, Stormbourne said:

I saw the example above as one hand each much like two lightsabers

I can see the confusion and if these games were more simulation-y maybe that would be true but as it is they've made all weapons a single source and the Defensive Quality a flat Rank, so no stacking :(

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