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That Blasted Samophlange

My 2.0 Epic prognostication

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First, let me be honest that I love the idea of Epic play, as well as looking forward to second edition.   

This of course led me to think about how I would design Epic play for 2.0.

Energy

I think the first thing I would do is revamp the whole energy system.   In fact, we seemingly have a mechanic for it right now - charges.   If each epic hardpoint had a number of charges, as well as the main body, we can get the mechanic of transfering power - spend (flip) a charge on the main ship and you can ready(flip) a charge on a hard point.

The movement dial

This I would eliminate entirely.  Instead, much like armada, give a dial that sets a speed, including a zero speed.   You can change speeds as an action perhaps.  This speed is the number of charges you spend to to execute a maneuver of that speed.   Going fast will thus use up a number of charges that you can't put towards other things.

Damage Deck

I think a single damage deck is probably the way to go.  That being said, epic ships should have some more penalizing effects from said deck including loss of...

Crew

I am not talking about the upgrade slot, but something similar to shields - a resource that can be lost.  The more crew you have, the more actions or attacks you can take.  This may sound like energy, but, it goes along with changing the way epic ships play to a more..

Worker placement

.. type of play style.   Epic ships should play different than the fighters and freighters that zoom around.   The ship card will be made larger, and have sections to where you can assign the crew.  Depending where you assign crew they could be in danger from..

Targeted attacks.

Some areas and points of a ship have always been targeted by daring heroes.   Why not take more to cripple a ship, slowly whittling them down to nothing - or maybe killing the crew, leaving the ship as nothing more than a large obstacle.

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I think they might actually keep using energy. While charges are very similar, they may want to distinguish between the two in cases where an upgrade card would provide extra charges or energy.

I like the movement ideas being more similar to Armada.

I don't love the crew idea but I could see it working okay.

Targeted Attacks sounds nice.

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Here's why I don't think we'll see Epic officially supported in 2.0 (at least for a very long time):

 

It has been nearly three years since Scum & Villainy debuted, and they still do not have a second Epic ship.  Yet, we're about to see the creation of two additional factions (First Order and Resistance), neither of which have any Epic ships yet... nor do there appear to be any good candidates in the films for anything beyond a 'drop ship' or 'escape shuttle,' as everything else is far too large.

And we just saw Epic get a rules update where they require each side to have an Epic ship now.  So they'll either have to abolish that requirement, or somehow churn out two new Epic ships at a time when their means of production are likely already buckling under the 2.0 conversion generally and Legion's monthly-ish release schedule.

So I actually think we'll see no official support for Epic in 2.0, which is tragic.  That said, I fully trust the community will be able to come up with some 2.0 house-rules converting the existing huge ships into the new format, and let's face it, Epic has never been an officially supported format so it probably doesn't really matter if FFG ever made official conversions (besides, that stuff doesn't seem to be in the conversion kits.... so would they expect us to rebuy 2.0 models to convert our existing Epic ships?  or would there be an EPIC Conversion kit released later?  Either seem unlikely, in my opinion).

 

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2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

So they'll either have to abolish that requirement

I don’t think that’s at all unreasonable. I feel like the requirement was there because epic ships were kinda trash, and they wanted people to have a reason to fly them. In 2.0, they can make epic ships competitive in their own right. 

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

So I actually think we'll see no official support for Epic in 2.0, which is tragic

I know the devs have said for a fact that there will be epic support for 2.0, I believe on the FFG stream for the announcement. It might not be immediate, but it’ll be there. 

Keep in mind, the epic ships have been big sellers for them in the past. It might not be a large competitive format, but enough people have bought in that it would be pretty dumb for them not to keep selling to that crowd. They need to get the base game rolling first, that’s certaibly higher priority, but epic will happen. 

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Movement: I've never been a fan of the way huge ships turn. The fishtailing is hard to predict, making it too easy to smash your own ships accidentally. I would consider a change to the maneuver template and more natural way of turning, like so:

huge-ship-template-concept-01.jpg

 

I'm not sure what the best order for performing these actions would be -- rotate first and then move forward? Or move forward first, then rotate in place? Maybe this sequence could be ship-dependent, where you have relatively nimble huge ships that can choose to rotate before or after moving forward, while larger ships carry more momentum and must move forward before rotating. Really nimble ships might be able to rotate two times, maybe twice in a row, or both before and after forward movement.

Edited by DagobahDave

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The basic mechanics of Huge ships are fine. Energy, movement etc all work.

The problem is that Epic ships struggle for action economy and struggle to survive because their starting HP are comparatively low. 

If Epic ships had the ability to perform more actions per turn (perhaps with an energy cost associated) then they could make more use of their "Reinforce" and "Recover" abilities, and if they had a native boost to hull and shields then they would be much stronger. To make them more exciting to use, adding 1 energy to each manoeuvre would give them a steady flow of more energy over a game.

Huge ships and Epic games work basically fine with in 1.0, with the only problem being that they are too easy for small ships to destroy. Better action economy and more health would go a long way to fixing that, without having to reinvent the wheel.

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Energy: I'd like to separate speed from energy production. I like the idea of each component starting with a certain number of charges, and some ability to divert power from one component to another as need arises. A small amount of energy could be regenerated each turn automatically (or by movement), but I'd like to have more of a sense that I'm a chief engineer looking for power wherever I can find it. (I'm using the terms power / charge / energy pretty interchangably here, because I don't care what it's called.)

Crew: I don't think the game needs to add a "Battlestations" style floorplan with crew tokens or crew cards moving around to different departments, because I think energy tokens transferring from place to place would represent crew moving from place to place as well. This level of management isn't really something I'm looking for with Epic.

Damage Decks: I would much prefer that each ship have one damage deck rather than two. If the damage would affect the front or rear differently, make the damage card big enough so that it can describe both effects.

100/6 Play: If FFG is really cool, they'll find ways to make Huge ships more relevant to standard tournament match play, like maybe adding an upgrade that lets you place a huge ship instead of standard obstacles, rather than the casual rule that exists for this currently. Maybe you can deploy any of your ships at Range 1 of your huge ship, which must be placed entirely within your starting zone.

 

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I hate the way huge ships smash other ships. It seems stupid that if I ram an A-Wing full speed with my Ghost, nothing happens, but if a GR-75 clips the Ghost, the Ghost is instantly vaporized with minimal negative effects for the transport. 

They need to make a huge ship maneuver method that accounts for bumping in 2.0.

And still give upgrades that allow you to do damage when you ram - just keep it toned down. 

Edited by Kieransi

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Just now, Kieransi said:

I hate the way huge ships smash other ships. It seems stupid that if I ram an A-Wing full speed with my Ghost, nothing happens, but if a GR-75 clips the Ghost, the Ghost is instantly vaporized with minimal negative effects for the transport. 

They need to make a huge ship maneuver method that accounts for bumping in 2.0.

And still give upgrades that allow you to do damage when you ram - just keep it toned down. 

I played a lot of X Wing vs TIE Fighter back in the day (Ok, I still play this game!) and flying too close to a capital ship is a surefire way to get smooshed. It's reasonable to assume IMO that an A Wing has to take evasive manoeuvres to avoid crashing into the VCX, so loses his action and has to stop movement, but something like a GR75 or CR90 is just too big. By the time the pilot realises he's too close it's too late, and he gets crushed.

Really, it's just easier that way than trying to come up with a way to deal with Epic ships in the current FFG flightpath system. It would be hilariously easy to block huge ships if they didn't run over small ships, and since X Wing doesn't have a mechanism to simply place ships as close as possible to their starting position, like you can do in other games, then this is the only reasonable solution. Plus like I said, crashing into capital ships if you weren't careful was definitely a thing that happened, so why not include it in the game?

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39 minutes ago, DagobahDave said:

Damage Decks: I would much prefer that each ship have one damage deck rather than two. If the damage would affect the front or rear differently, make the damage card big enough so that it can describe both effects.

I think this is pretty likely. They are demonstrating a willingness to change card sizes, even producing a standard DD that is full size, so epic DD that have cards split to show effect on each half should be easy. 

In fact, if there is an “epic starter set” type of thing with no models but all the rules and new tokens needed to play 600+ point games with or without huge ships, they could make the huge ship deck generic to any huge ship and you’d only need one to cover any huge ship. 

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Just now, Forgottenlore said:

I think this is pretty likely. They are demonstrating a willingness to change card sizes, even producing a standard DD that is full size, so epic DD that have cards split to show effect on each half should be easy. 

In fact, if there is an “epic starter set” type of thing with no models but all the rules and new tokens needed to play 600+ point games with or without huge ships, they could make the huge ship deck generic to any huge ship and you’d only need one to cover any huge ship. 

Don't give them ideas. They'll do that and only include a single deck, so you need multiple kits to run multiple ships!

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24 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Don't give them ideas. They'll do that and only include a single deck, so you need multiple kits to run multiple ships!

I’d rather need to buy 2 kits and be able to run any combination of ships I want no matter what other ships come out (generic huge ship decks would let them put more into future huges) than needing 5 (currently 7) decks to cover (one of) all my ships. (Actually, I think I currently have 10 epic ship damage decks, but that covers duplicate ships and fore and aft decks for the big ones. 

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I like the crew allocation mechanic.

Admiral Thrawn: While you have at least 1 (team) assigned to this upgrade, each turn you may blablabla.

This is in addition to team tokens assigned to shields, weapons, and support actions.

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9 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Crew

I am not talking about the upgrade slot, but something similar to shields - a resource that can be lost.  The more crew you have, the more actions or attacks you can take.  This may sound like energy, but, it goes along with changing the way epic ships play to a more..

This is something I've advocated for a while.  I've stated on my podcast a few dozen times.  I fully agree!  I think there are a lot of actions for Epic ships, but it's crazy that each section can only do one each time.  They should be able to do more.....or at least pay the option to do more.  I mean, are all the crew members just sitting there while the Radar Jammer does his thing?  Is the Weapons Engineer just not putting Target Locks on things?  It's a bit silly.  The capital ships should have a lot on them and they should be real tough nuts to crack.

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15 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

This is something I've advocated for a while.  I've stated on my podcast a few dozen times.  I fully agree!  I think there are a lot of actions for Epic ships, but it's crazy that each section can only do one each time.  They should be able to do more.....or at least pay the option to do more.  I mean, are all the crew members just sitting there while the Radar Jammer does his thing?  Is the Weapons Engineer just not putting Target Locks on things?  It's a bit silly.  The capital ships should have a lot on them and they should be real tough nuts to crack.

I mean, if a ship only has 1 jammer dish, that's it, only one ship can be jammed no matter how many crew give the enemy a rasberry. But that's why I say equipment that does stuff while team tokens are on it- you want to jam multiple things, equip multiple jammers and crew them, like that EWACS Gozanti in that one rebels episode.

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19 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

I know the devs have said for a fact that there will be epic support for 2.0, I believe on the FFG stream for the announcement. It might not be immediate, but it’ll be there.


If anyone can confirm this, that would be great.  I watched the Hyperspace Stream too, and I thought the response to the "Epic?" question was handled by a project/marketing manager (e.g. not a dev) and was something to the extent of "Well there's nothing official releasing yet, but we'd love to see Epic in 2.0" which is a very different sort of answer from "Yes, eventually."  Also, could even be more up in the air with the alleged sale of Asmodee that is rumored to be happening at the moment.  It's worth noting that Armada hasn't gotten a new product announcement since the Asmodee/FFG merger, despite during a Flight Report nearly a year ago FFG answering a question about Armada with a cryptic "Something big is coming!"

So, I mean of course I hope it gets official 2.0 support, but I'll believe it when I see it.

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On 5/14/2018 at 12:16 PM, pickirk01 said:

Then get over to the Epic sub-forum.  We've been discussing these types of things over there.

There's a sub forum??? I must find dis!

 

Oh...I just found it! It was hiding in plain sight!!!

Edited by shaner

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I hope they will offer upgrade packs for those of us who’ve already purchased epic ships. I have all 5. The addition of two more factions doesn’t bode well for it. I’m fine with just playing 1.0 epic for fun but we shall see. If they care about customers and the boatload of money they’ve made off this game I hope the will think about the fact that most who bought the epic ships are their best customers. Don’t **** us and not support epic. Don’t make me buy the same ship again.    If you don’t decide to support epic, at least bring out one final 1.0 ship. Larger scum epic Talon Karrde’s Wild karrde with something like 2 z-95s and as a bonus some various 2.0 pilots and upgrades

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I’d be OK with faction specific epic conversion kits, as long as the include more dials and bases for the generics of that faction.  Give me an easy way to get to the larger numbers of ships I need without ending up with tons of duplicate uniques.

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