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STAR WARS FILMS Discussion Thread!

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22 hours ago, piznit said:

I know Empire is generally considered the favorite of all the movies, and I have seen a few rank the original above it.  I'm curious to know why some like Empire better.  I know growing up, before I knew the names for the different movies, I would always ask for the one where they were in the trash, or where the Death Star blew up, so I always gravitated to ANH first.  Just interested in seeing why others like Empire better

For the same reasons that I don't like episodes 7 or 8. The antagonist defines the protagonist... and in episode 5 the Empire seems competent, badass, and dangerous as ****.  (This is also why I believe that Timothy Zahn's Thrawn series is a fan favorite). The good guys just scrape by. The tension and danger feels real, so does the character development.

 

Few find a MaRey Sue defeating an enemy that can be thwarted by mama jokes compelling.

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ESB first of all is a good movie, there is everything in it, action, humour, love story, plot twist, expanding background. And all elements are in balance, not over the top and 'realistic" (this is still Fantasy in Space but the no one is doing something because it is written that way but the action as the love story feel natural)

We also see the story from the point of the antagonist and they are not acting stupid as in fact the good guys get away (they do not win) by luck.

This is why I rate it better than ANH, the inside infos on the Empire and better evil guys do the trick

And it aged better, as the Special Edition did less bad stuff, while the effects of the Despecialised (or original) version looks better than the outdated CGI in Episode 1

PS: And this is not an impression over time as this topic made me watch them yesterday, the CGI of E1 aged bad while the AT-ST fight still looks good

PPS: For the same reason I rate the Hal9000 version of Episode 3 so high, as with the stupid stuff removed or replaced and it is a good movie and fits well to ANH and ESB

Edited by Kodos

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I’ll be a little controversial...

VI > V > IV > R1 > VII > III > II > VIII > I

I really like RotJ for the Endor space battle and especially the final confrontation of Luke, Vader, and the Emperor. We see Luke teeter towards the dark side before making his choice, we see the conflict in Vader, and the raw power of the Emperor. I do not think we will ever see a better Star Wars villain combination than Vader and Palpatine.

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R1 > IV > VIII=V=VI > VII

Probably unpopular opinion, but mainly due to pacing and originality issues.

I will not assign anything to I-III because I cannot bring myself to watch them again. Watched them in cinema all 3, hoping, it only could get better...to be bitterly disappointed again (the overarching politics were interesting, but everything else was abysmal execution).

 

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1. Empire Strikes Back - The best one.

2. Revenge of the Sith

3. A New Hope

4. Return of the Jedi - Ewoks save the day...seriously?!

5. Rogue One

6. Attack of the Clones - awkward love scene. Anakins acting.

7. The Phantom Menace - long, drawn out boring moments. Jar Jar a bit much.

8. The Force Awakens - retelling of ANH. FO comes across as Nazi Germany. Uninteresting new cast of heroes.

9. The Last Jedi - retelling of ESB and part of RotJ. Huge plot holes and Benny Hill gags galore, felt more like Guardians of Galaxy movie then a SW one. Destruction of Luke's character.

 

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2 hours ago, Managarmr said:

I will not assign anything to I-III because I cannot bring myself to watch them again.

You could search the web for Hal9000 Star wars fan edit and and re-watch Episode III, I would say that it is worth a try

Edited by Kodos

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1.) A New Hope - Empire is probably more fun to watch. This is pretty darn good too and is the cornerstone. It gets this place partly because of its temporal position as the first for me. Respect.

2.) Empire Strikes Back - Yup, fairly standard 1 and 2. Not a whole lot else to say that hasn't been said. It is known.

3.) Rogue One - Easily my favorite to watch right now. This was an amazing new work out of Disney, it spawns all hope for good original works in the new movies. It is incredibly important in canon and incredibly good despite not being a part of the mainline series. Pretty much crucial in convincing me to continue playing X-Wing. I chose this username because of it, obviously I hope.

4.) The Last Jedi - My hands are up! Don't shoot! Not trying to change your opinion. Mine is that I waited so long for a good new Star Wars movie in the main series that I was always going to love it when it happened. TFA was a slightly reworked ANH. This is so much more. Doesn't mean that you have to like all that "more" as much as I do. Have had some of my best talks about Star Wars space combat and the Force thanks to this movie.

5.) Return of the Jedi - Ok, it's probably every bit as good as TLJ. Can't really put them in the same spot and one is newer, so blame it on recency bias. A long wait for Ewoks, but an acceptable and worthy end to the OT. The question of whether or not Vader is redeemed is one of my favorites. Not much elaboration on ole Palp though. More information about him and his rise to power was the best thing to come out of the rest of the list.

6.) Revenge of the Sith - It has the high ground. Better than a remake of ANH, but not by a whole lot. Hayden Christensen is definitely still the greatest travesty in Star Wars history. I know people love to hate on Rian Johnson now, but this guy ruined otherwise salvageable movies with his acting. No on one ever put him in charge of these things, but he managed to ruin it anyway. Most of the rest of the movie was very good. Barely any Jar Jar. 

7.) The Force Awakens - Yup, ANH again. I liked it though. Wish Han had stuck around obviously, but a worthy ending if not in an ideal movie. Poor guy had to go and get mixed up with the folks that this universes strange manifestation of karma decided to give super powers to. Held his own for a long time, but couldn't escape the betrayal of the dark side forever. RIP. As unoriginal as it was, I liked it and won't forget it.

8.) Attack of the Clones - Man, Hayden, how can you not find some honest expression in that love scene? Anyone can tell she is an attractive woman. Are you like an acting black hole that draws in even preexisting human emotions and leaves only wooden and awkward fumbling? Ok, maybe I am too hard on the guy. It's not a great movie. I didn't feel like I wasted my time though. Good details of the backstory revealed.

9.) The Phantom Menace - Podracing, Jar Jar, child actor playing major role. Feels like an attempt to merge Star Wars with a full on children's movie. Not just marginally YA space fantasy like the rest of Star Wars can be, but like Spy Kids level. Yay Maul, your scenes made the movie somewhat enjoyable. Very close to feeling like a waste of time and one I want to forget exists.

Edited by RebelProfundity
Clarifying Jar Jar hate - fair point

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1) ROTS - The closest thing there is to a perfect star wars movie.  No real flaws.  Lots of great action, and easily the darkest and most emotional of all the movies.

2) ROTJ - A big part of this is nostalgia.  It was the first star wars movie I had on vhs for several years before getting the 1995 and latter 1997 SE boxsets.  I'll admit the first half can be a bit slow and clunky, though the sail barge attack scene mostly makes up for it.  It's the second half though that sells it for me.  Great non-stop action, and the throne room scenes are so big, even more so when you factor in the PT stories.

3) RO - There's a lot of similarities to this movie and ROTJ which is why I rank it so high.  Both have weaker first halves, but the action and emotion in the second half is what sells it.  Plus they are the two best space battle scenes in all the movies thus far (with ROTS a close 3rd).

4) TPM - TPM 4th, are you insane?! No I'm not.  This movie is better than it's given credit for, though I'll admit nostalgia plays a factor again as this was the first SW movie I saw on the big screen for my initial viewing (SE's don't count as I had seen the movies already).  I love star wars actions scenes, and this movie is one of the most consistent in terms of having good action in all 3 acts.  Also DOTF is one of the best themes in all the movies, and is also the best lightsaber duel.  Also Qui-gon Jinn is possibly my favorite sw character.

5) TESB - Believe it or not, this was my least favorite OT movie for all of my childhood and teen years.  I get why many fans have this as their favorite or near the top of their list, but it never hit that note for me.  I think it's because the big action scene is so early, and it's a land battle where I prefer space battles.  The middle really slogs on repeat viewings too.

6) AOTC - It has a very interesting and unique story, and I love the mystery theme of the first couple acts.  The non-stop action from the droid factory though the duels with Dooku is just pure fun.  What hampers this one for me is the movie had a lot of production issues.  The music had some recycling, some of the vfx were a bit underpar for the time, it's a bit long and not the best edited either.

7) TLJ - I could possibly see this going down a spot someday.  The movie hasn't really gotten any better on further viewings, maybe even slightly worse.  I like that the plot is much more original than TFA at least.  What I don't like is that it's super long, with not much action.  Also not a fan of the new ways the force was used in this movie that had never really been done before.  Not killing off Leia when they knew carrie had died was a missed opportunity, even if it seemed like it would be tacky or whatever.  Also I don't mind Luke dying, I just wish he could have gotten at least one action scene to show he's one of the most powerful jedi ever.

8 ) ANH - This is arguably the most "fun" star wars movie, but that's the only thing really going for it.  Even with the help from the S.E.'s, it still looks really dated at times.  The story feels less epic and cohesive too since it was meant to be a standalone movie.  The prequels and Rogue One have helped to enhance some scenes though, especially early in the movie.  The duel between vader and obi-wan is still super bad.

9) TFA - If this had been the first star wars movie ever, it would have fared pretty well.  But since there were already 6 movies prior, it's pretty bad.  It's been said many times, but the copying of many elements of ANH's plot is just lazy.  It's basically a giant fan love-fest for the OT, especially ANH.  So many re-used designs, plot points, character types, etc.  Also sadly Williams has lost a step for his scores for both ST movies, they aren't bad by any means, just not nearly as great as the OT & PT scores.

Edited by markcsoul

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6 hours ago, RebelProfundity said:

6.) Revenge of the Sith - It has the high ground. Better than a remake of ANH, but not by a whole lot. Hayden Christensen is definitely still the greatest travesty in Star Wars history. I know people love to hate on Rian Johnson now, but this guy ruined otherwise salvageable movies with his acting. No on one ever put him in charge of these things, but he managed to ruin it anyway. Most of the rest of the movie was very good. Still way too much Jar Jar.

He was in two super brief scenes, and only had one short line that's barely audible.  His scene during padme's funeral is one his best, looking so sad about her death.

It would be like if someone who hated Gollum complained that there's too much Gollum in The Fellowship of the Ring.

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43 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

He was in two super brief scenes, and only had one short line that's barely audible.  His scene during padme's funeral is one his best, looking so sad about her death.

It would be like if someone who hated Gollum complained that there's too much Gollum in The Fellowship of the Ring.

Still way too much Jar Jar tho. 

Edited by RebelProfundity
Edited original post to reflect your point

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Since this controversy is fun ...

1. TLJ.  A SW movie with characters that are more than one-dimensional, and a few plot twists.  Luke finally becomes more than a hero stand-in.  And for the first time, there is some mystery associated with the Force. *

2. R1.  Good, well-paced action movie.  And Krennic.

3. ANH.   The universe was invented here.  80s nostalgia with Alec Guinness as the Wizard.

4. The music of the prequels.  (Also Palpatine's rise to power as a story.)

---

5. ESB and ROTJ.  Nice visuals for their time.

6. TFA.  Good movie in principle, but too much ANH redone.  Makes some sense as TLJ introduction.

----

7. The prequels.  Colorful, just don't look at Anakin.  Or Maul.  Or Jar Jar.  Or ...

----

* in case you're concerned, TLJ is clearly worst in terms of plot holes, internal inconsistency, and redundant story parts.  I don't care.

 

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And don't forget TLJ is a rehashed ESB too.  It has the same 4 acts of ESB but Rian put them in different order to fool some people in believeing its a unique story.

Act1 - Rebel base on white planet under attack by imperial/fo walkers. Heroes barely get away in the falcon.

Act 2- Space chase, heroes minus jedi can't make jump to light speed to lose imperial/fo armada.

Act3 - Jedi learner seeking out training from legendary jedi master. 

Act4 - Heroes seek help from a possible ally whos located at an exotic city to help them flee the clutches of the empire/fo, who ends up double crossing them.

I just described ESB and TLJ above.

Since TLJ is 30 mins longer, it has a 5th act that is almost an exact copy of the emperor throne room act from RotJ.

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42 minutes ago, Zarovichx said:

And don't forget TLJ is a rehashed ESB too.  It has the same 4 acts of ESB but Rian put them in different order to fool some people in believeing its a unique story.

Act1 - Rebel base on white planet under attack by imperial/fo walkers. Heroes barely get away in the falcon.

Act 2- Space chase, heroes minus jedi can't make jump to light speed to lose imperial/fo armada.

Act3 - Jedi learner seeking out training from legendary jedi master. 

Act4 - Heroes seek help from a possible ally whos located at an exotic city to help them flee the clutches of the empire/fo, who ends up double crossing them.

I just described ESB and TLJ above.

Since TLJ is 30 mins longer, it has a 5th act that is almost an exact copy of the emperor throne room act from RotJ.

I mean, if you want to get all reductive about it, every Star Wars movie is a rehash of the first. Entire story: plucky group of heroes fight against the odds using a combination of lasers and space magic to defy a sinister group of villains who also use a combination of lasers and space magic, only more evilly, and with at least one of the villains hiding their face.

But hey, Solo might be the first movie to break that trend!

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There's a difference between reductive and comparative.  He's correct.  TLJ re-uses most of the core plot points of Empire, and a significant number of visual themes, just with some slight jumbling of the order of settings.  Slow chase (cruiser instead of Falcon) with Lightspeed Problems. Jedi training on strange planet from reluctant teacher. Weird mysterious cave with wacky reflective vision sequence. Double crossed by new ally. Walkers vs speeders on planet covered with white powder. 

 

It just doesn't do it nearly as well as Empire did, and bizarrely chooses to do a "race against the clock" plot structure which causes even more severe time continuity issues than TESB did.  They aren't the same film, obviously, but if you don't see how TLJ specifically mimics the plot structure of TESB, you're just being dishonest.

 

1) ROTS - The closest thing there is to a perfect star wars movie.  No real flaws.  Lots of great action, and easily the darkest and most emotional of all the movies.

?  This guy.

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4 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

There's a difference between reductive and comparative.  He's correct.  TLJ re-uses most of the core plot points of Empire, and a significant number of visual themes, just with some slight jumbling of the order of settings.  Slow chase (cruiser instead of Falcon) with Lightspeed Problems. Jedi training on strange planet from reluctant teacher. Weird mysterious cave with wacky reflective vision sequence. Double crossed by new ally. Walkers vs speeders on planet covered with white powder. 

 

It just doesn't do it nearly as well as Empire did, and bizarrely chooses to do a "race against the clock" plot structure which causes even more severe time continuity issues than TESB did.  They aren't the same film, obviously, but if you don't see how TLJ specifically mimics the plot structure of TESB, you're just being dishonest.

 

I didn't say that any comparison between TLJ and Empire is necessarily wrong. TLJ certainly hits several familiar beats plotwise, but it does so in the context of a completely different story, executes many of those beats in different ways, and goes out of its way to subvert expectations (sometimes to its detriment). They're very, very different movies. It's perfectly reasonable to think that TLJ suffers from certain scenes and plot points being derivative, but taking those similarities and concluding that TLJ is a simple rehashing of Empire is overly reductive and does a disservice to both movies.

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2 hours ago, nexttwelveexits said:

 

I didn't say that any comparison between TLJ and Empire is necessarily wrong. TLJ certainly hits several familiar beats plotwise, but it does so in the context of a completely different story, executes many of those beats in different ways, and goes out of its way to subvert expectations (sometimes to its detriment). They're very, very different movies. It's perfectly reasonable to think that TLJ suffers from certain scenes and plot points being derivative, but taking those similarities and concluding that TLJ is a simple rehashing of Empire is overly reductive and does a disservice to both movies.

It's not a disservice to TESB.  It suggests TESB is so good as to be worth copying. The only movie that gets dis-served, is TLJ, but I mean, it is what it is.  Long, stupid, and derivative.  Why make excuses for it?  I really wanted to enjoy it, and it isn't entirely without merit, but it's long, the tone is inconsistent, the humor is awful, the pacing is awful,  the second act is a complete waste of time (and I mean all of it, not just Casino Planet) and the ending resets the entire franchise back to zero.  Everything built in Episodes 4-6 has been wiped out.  Everything built in Episode 7 is wiped out (not a huge loss, but why even bother worldbuilding?).  Heck, it wipes out basically everything it set up in its own run time.  Why are we worried about doing a disservice to The Last Jedi?  That would suggest that in 20-30 years it's going to be remembered the way the originals are. No kid in 2040 is going to be playing with a Rey or Kylo doll, lol.

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35 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

It's not a disservice to TESB.  It suggests TESB is so good as to be worth copying. The only movie that gets dis-served, is TLJ, but I mean, it is what it is.  Long, stupid, and derivative.  Why make excuses for it?  I really wanted to enjoy it, and it isn't entirely without merit, but it's long, the tone is inconsistent, the humor is awful, the pacing is awful,  the second act is a complete waste of time (and I mean all of it, not just Casino Planet) and the ending resets the entire franchise back to zero.  Everything built in Episodes 4-6 has been wiped out.  Everything built in Episode 7 is wiped out (not a huge loss, but why even bother worldbuilding?).  Heck, it wipes out basically everything it set up in its own run time.  Why are we worried about doing a disservice to The Last Jedi?  That would suggest that in 20-30 years it's going to be remembered the way the originals are. No kid in 2040 is going to be playing with a Rey or Kylo doll, lol.

Nah, they'll be playing with their old-woman-rey and old-man-kylo dolls, whilst their parents whine about how episode XI ruined the characters they grew up with, and how rey's robot leg didn't stay behind when she faded into the force etc etc etc. 

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That won't happen. There is no comparison between Han, Luke, and Leia to Rey, Finn, and Poe. There are reasons to why the OT cast has been beloved for over 40 years.

Nothing appealing or any depth to the new cast of heroes.

Stormtrooper Janitor that knows everything FO technology because you once cleaned the toliets on the ship.

A mary-sue that was born a Jedi Master just because...reasons.

And a pilot that can single handedly solo a Star Destroyer and drops "your mom jokes" while doing it.

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3 hours ago, Zarovichx said:

That won't happen. There is no comparison between Han, Luke, and Leia to Rey, Finn, and Poe. There are reasons to why the OT cast has been beloved for over 40 years.

That depends how they expends on these characters outside the movies. Han, Luke and Leia had 40 years of other stories in novels and comic books. For a very long time, they were the only Star Wars characters and the only ones we grew up with. That builds an attachment to those characters.

We'll be in a better position to judge after the 9th episode. Let's say episode 9 starts right after the 8 and that Rey dies at the end of episode 9. That would means that episode 7-8-9 would be the only stories including Rey (except for the short story of Before the Awakening). Seeing as Disney is now pushing one Star Wars movie per year, plus the animated series and live one coming on, if they don't expend on those characters, they'll never have the impact Han, Luke and Leia had on our childhood, because they'll be characters from a plethora of Star Wars stories. Same goes for Jyn Erso or Chirrut.

As for their appeal, I personnally prefer Rey over Luke and find Kylo Ren a more interesting villain than Darth Vader.

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4 hours ago, Zarovichx said:

That won't happen. There is no comparison between Han, Luke, and Leia to Rey, Finn, and Poe. There are reasons to why the OT cast has been beloved for over 40 years.

Nothing appealing or any depth to the new cast of heroes.

Stormtrooper Janitor that knows everything FO technology because you once cleaned the toliets on the ship.

A mary-sue that was born a Jedi Master just because...reasons.

And a pilot that can single handedly solo a Star Destroyer and drops "your mom jokes" while doing it.

REEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

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