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tieren

First analysis of the legion meta?

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After 4 weeks of 56 round robin games of the 45 player Invader League tourney, i'd like to share some stats and lists with y'all. This is right before we head into the top 18 Single Eliminations.

Round Robin Stats dump: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408238220527140864/445383043683844097/Round_Robin_Analysis.docx
Top 18 Lists: http://www.invaderleague.com/league/single-elimination-lists
(Note that players can change lists between games for round robin, but have to stick to 1 list for the single eliminations. These are the submitted lists for the upcoming single elims)

Some analysis:

Out of the top 18 players, only 5 are rebels. However, the top 3 players are rebels.

Some major archetypes that seem to emerge for the top 18:

  • Luke + Leia + Double AT-RT (All the 5 Rebs in top 18 are running some variant of this. The leading player is running double naked AT-RT!)
  • Veers + Double AT-ST (The 2nd most popular archetype with 4 players running this, and most popular among imperials)
  • Vader + Veers + 6 Corp Spam (3 Players)
  • Triple Speeder Bikes (3 Imp lists with this, players run either Veers or Vader)

Some stats on the deployment, objectives and conditions:

  • Most Played Deployment – Major Offensive – 17/57 (30%)
  • Least Played Deployment – Disarray/The Long March – 8/57 (14%)
  • Most Played Objective – Intercept the Transmissions – 21/57 (37%)
  • Least Played Objective – Key Positions – 7/57 (12%)
  • Most Played Condition – Clear Conditions/Hostile Environment – 15/57 (26%)
  • Least Played Condition – Minefield – 7/57 (12%)

Win Rates:

  • Rebels Won – 38/55 (69%) – Of the 55 matches involving Rebels 38 were won. (Includes Mirror Matches)
  • Imperials Won – 48/59 (81%) – Of the 59 matches involving Imperials 48 were won. (Includes Mirror Matches)
  • Rebel vs. Imperial Win Rate
  • i.    Rebels – 15/32 (47%) – Rebels won 15 of the 32 Games played against Imperials
  • ii.    Imperials – 17/32 (53%) – Imperials won 17 of the 32 Games played against Rebels

 

Hope these stats are useful for y'all!

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2 minutes ago, deathslittlebro said:

It works as mobile cover. It's pretty mean in melee. It can hold/contest objectives without being easily removed.

Thanks.

No Airspeeder in Top 18 ?

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14 minutes ago, Contrapulator said:

Also no Fleet Troopers. I'm guessing they weren't allowed/available?

There are fleet troopers! I just posted the general archetypes.

but yeah no airspeeders

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, VAYASAN said:

Sorry to post slightly OT but it TTS a model where you only play other humans(ie no built in AI playing im guessing).  And can you play as both sides?

Yes. TTS is table top simulator FYI.

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2 hours ago, Irokenics said:

did the number of corps units vary amongst the top archetypes? Because i imagine a Luke + Leia + 2 ATRT + 3 Corps is very different from Luke + Leia + 2 ATRT + 5 Corps

You can see the lists by following the link. People definitely used all their points - I think the most common option is 5 bulkier corp or 6 flimiser corps. Also some variation between number of regular Rebel Troopers versus number of Fleet Troopers.

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Don't mean to be a downer, but I feel that Legion doesn't have a "meta" quite yet. Everyone has a different play style, and that's what could keep from metas popping up. Each list has a deployment/condition/objective that works for it and that doesn't work for it. In my community with 11 of us (2 Imps and 9 Rebs), we have 11 different lists and they all work great.  It's play style and dice manipulation that determines a W or L. I wouldn't say we should go off of the "Top 18" lists from a simulator mod, due to it being in the digital realm and not the real world where you can see the board differently and red your opponent. Metas are what will kill games. X-Wing for example is being revamped because 90% of its player base dropped out because it was casual.  The same thing could happen with Legion is everyone is running the same competitive list and not being creative. That's the whole point of Legion, be creative.  Honestly I think we need to stay away from metas for quite some time or forever. They never do any good for communities except kill them. 

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34 minutes ago, AintNoPoser said:

Don't mean to be a downer, but I feel that Legion doesn't have a "meta" quite yet. Everyone has a different play style, and that's what could keep from metas popping up. Each list has a deployment/condition/objective that works for it and that doesn't work for it. In my community with 11 of us (2 Imps and 9 Rebs), we have 11 different lists and they all work great.  It's play style and dice manipulation that determines a W or L. I wouldn't say we should go off of the "Top 18" lists from a simulator mod, due to it being in the digital realm and not the real world where you can see the board differently and red your opponent. Metas are what will kill games. X-Wing for example is being revamped because 90% of its player base dropped out because it was casual.  The same thing could happen with Legion is everyone is running the same competitive list and not being creative. That's the whole point of Legion, be creative.  Honestly I think we need to stay away from metas for quite some time or forever. They never do any good for communities except kill them. 

There will always be a meta, as long as there is unit variety.  No game is perfectly balanced, and there will always be some units or combinations of units that are better at performing certain tasks than others.  I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing.

What is detrimental is when a meta becomes stale, and new combinations stop being viable.  I think this is what you were alluding to with x-wing.  This happens when a game is so unbalanced that unit choices devolve into “must-haves” or “never takes.”  Luckily I don’t think Legion is there right now.  Even the much maligned T-47 has its place in certain builds.

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So I will speak about the T-47 and why I will never run the thing (I am Riggins, who is the top seed)

The T-47 is massively overpriced: 175pts for 7hp is disgustingly sad, almost every single Imperial unit has impact and will easily blow up the flimsy thing as soon as it moves in. Its damage output is nothing to write home about either (3.75 on avg). 

The main reason I will never run it is what I am giving up: 175pts buys me -> two rebel squads with Z-6 and and a rebel squad with a rebel trooper (174pts), two AT-RTs with laser canons (180pts) the list goes on. The Airspeeder will be better off on the shelf since all the other rebel options are better, want armor take AT-RTs, want firepower take rebel troopers. All of this coupled with the fact that the Airspeeder cannot hold objectives makes it even worse. 

Also as to my list running double naked AT-RTs, looking at my bracket the earliest I can fight a rebel match is in the quarter finals. The problem is the laser canons are really potent in the rebel matchup, but pretty terrible in the imperial matchup, since they get blown up stupid fast, esp with all the AT-STs running around. Putting minimal investment into the AT-RTs is strong since if they actually do get into melee they will make up their points fast and if they get blown up early I lose very little, it also frees up my points to run more troopers.

Also here are my lists for those curious: 

List used in the round robin: Luke Skywalker (Force Reflexes + Force Push), Leia Organa, 2x AT-RTs (Laser Canon), 3x Rebel Trooper (Extra Trooper + Z-6) + 2x Rebel Trooper (Z-6) 795/800 [9 activations]

List being used in elimination: Luke Skywalker (Force Reflexes + Force Push), Leia Organa (Environmental Gear), 2x AT-RT, 2x Fleet Trooper (Extra Trooper, Scatter Gun, Environmental Gear), 4x Rebel Trooper (Z-6) 798/800 [10 activations]

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5 minutes ago, garciaj113 said:

So I will speak about the T-47 and why I will never run the thing (I am Riggins, who is the top seed)

The T-47 is massively overpriced: 175pts for 7hp is disgustingly sad, almost every single Imperial unit has impact and will easily blow up the flimsy thing as soon as it moves in. Its damage output is nothing to write home about either (3.75 on avg). 

The main reason I will never run it is what I am giving up: 175pts buys me -> two rebel squads with Z-6 and and a rebel squad with a rebel trooper (174pts), two AT-RTs with laser canons (180pts) the list goes on. The Airspeeder will be better off on the shelf since all the other rebel options are better, want armor take AT-RTs, want firepower take rebel troopers. All of this coupled with the fact that the Airspeeder cannot hold objectives makes it even worse. 

Also as to my list running double naked AT-RTs, looking at my bracket the earliest I can fight a rebel match is in the quarter finals. The problem is the laser canons are really potent in the rebel matchup, but pretty terrible in the imperial matchup, since they get blown up stupid fast, esp with all the AT-STs running around. Putting minimal investment into the AT-RTs is strong since if they actually do get into melee they will make up their points fast and if they get blown up early I lose very little, it also frees up my points to run more troopers.

Also here are my lists for those curious: 

List used in the round robin: Luke Skywalker (Force Reflexes + Force Push), Leia Organa, 2x AT-RTs (Laser Canon), 3x Rebel Trooper (Extra Trooper + Z-6) + 2x Rebel Trooper (Z-6) 795/800 [9 activations]

List being used in elimination: Luke Skywalker (Force Reflexes + Force Push), Leia Organa (Environmental Gear), 2x AT-RT, 2x Fleet Trooper (Extra Trooper, Scatter Gun, Environmental Gear), 4x Rebel Trooper (Z-6) 798/800 [10 activations]

Seems like all three of the top Reb lists had both Luke and Leia.  Any strategy suggestions for how to use them together?

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@Orkimedes my favorite thing about running Luke + Leia together is the dual command bubbles. The main issue with running Luke by himself is that when he charges forward your rear troops lose their bubble and makes them vulnerable to panic. Aside from the command bubbles, giving Luke a dodge token turn 1 is really nice (with Leia's take cover action) and makes Luke's ability to move up field much stronger. Also since the list is very troop heavy Leia's inspire and take cover abilities really kick into high gear. Having both Luke's and Leia's command cards is also really nice as they are all much better than the neutral ones, notably, Leia's one-pip and two-pip are both really good for turn 1. Leia's one-pip lets you start off with a powerful alpha strike, or utilizing Leia's two-pip allows troopers to take objectives turn 1 rather than turn 2 (this is due to the fact that the speed-1 move puts the unit close enough for the speed-2 to move into base to base with the objective, allowing for the 2nd action to be used to capture the objective)

Edited by garciaj113
typo

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@Orkimedes  for the Fleet Troopers I like to move them up with the AT-RTs, as they provide a good source of mobile cover, Luke is usually flanking on his own since he is so mobile and heavily utilizing LOS breaking terrain. Also key is that when the AT-RTs run into enemies, they dont engage them allowing them to still be shot at by the Fleet Troopers. 

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13 hours ago, garciaj113 said:

So I will speak about the T-47 and why I will never run the thing (I am Riggins, who is the top seed)

The T-47 is massively overpriced: 175pts for 7hp is disgustingly sad, almost every single Imperial unit has impact and will easily blow up the flimsy thing as soon as it moves in. Its damage output is nothing to write home about either (3.75 on avg). 

The main reason I will never run it is what I am giving up: 175pts buys me -> two rebel squads with Z-6 and and a rebel squad with a rebel trooper (174pts), two AT-RTs with laser canons (180pts) the list goes on. The Airspeeder will be better off on the shelf since all the other rebel options are better, want armor take AT-RTs, want firepower take rebel troopers. All of this coupled with the fact that the Airspeeder cannot hold objectives makes it even worse. 

I've been trying to point this out for weeks. Well put.

Honestly, I've been finding the same true about the AT-ST against a savvy Rebel player. The winning strategy seems to be just never try to destroy it. Over six rounds it doesn't contribute much to the game compared to trooper spam.

Edited by Tvayumat

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given the variation in lists, I really don't see a "Meta". To me a Meta implies almost everyone is taking said force. The closest Meta to me is 5-6 units of troopers. You can't even say one or two commanders. 

I am a numbers guy so really appreciate the statistics. Thanks

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8 hours ago, Bohemian73 said:

given the variation in lists, I really don't see a "Meta". To me a Meta implies almost everyone is taking said force. The closest Meta to me is 5-6 units of troopers. You can't even say one or two commanders. 

I am a numbers guy so really appreciate the statistics. Thanks

This is a common misconception. Metagaming includes all outside influences that affect your in-game strategy, so it's virtually impossible to avoid in any game that involves army or deck building. By looking at the statistics in this thread, you are metagaming.

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