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driftingkenshi

The walls between us

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Today's scenario:

Veers stood on one side of a barricade, Luke on the other. Am i correct in assuming Luke can't reach over the waist high wall and lasersword the guy with a bucket on his head because they aren't base to base?

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As far as I understand, if both minis are base to base with the baracade, they are engaged.

My mistake, I was mixed up with a different game, ignore this post

Edited by Spinnaker
updated with new info

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13 hours ago, driftingkenshi said:

That is the first disappointment I've had with this game. That's kinda dumb.

It makes perfect sense to me.  Keeping in mind that the game is meant to represent troops in motion and each round is only a few seconds of 'real time'.  If you are attacking someone, even with a lightsaber, and there is a 3' tall steel wall keeping you at least 2' away from your target, where all they need to do is take a step back to get out of your reach, you are not going to be able to hit them.  Veers isn't a statue, he isn't going to stand stock still while a madman with a glowing, humming, death blade runs at him.  And if Luke, who can get a free attack after moving, cannot get in base contact, then it means for that 3 or 4 second that the round represents, he simply was too far from him to get in a swing.  So throw the saber or fire your pistol.  If you are both in base contact with the same cover, neither of you get to use it in ranged combat.  

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Base to base-  this is a good rule cause there may be alot of crazy situations of almost base to base where it could be interpreted in different ways.  True base to base is very clean and simple.  Maybe veers ducks at last min to avoid.

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4 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

So lining up trooper units behind a wall (regardless of how low it is) or a line of barricades makes those units immune to melee attacks. That certainly is "abstract".

Immune*? No, the other guy can still hop over the barricade. It's certainly more difficult, which seems realistic to me.

Edit: *I'm sure you didn't mean this literally, to be fair, but my larger point is that the added difficulty in physically engaging someone on the other side of a barrier is realistic to me.

Edited by nashjaee

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Just now, nashjaee said:

Immune? No, the other guy can still hop over the barricade. It's certainly more difficult, which seems realistic to me.

You didn't read what I wrote. "Lining up trooper units behind ..." would make hopping directly over the obstacle impossible. But what the hey, if it makes sense to you ...

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18 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

You didn't read what I wrote. "Lining up trooper units behind ..." would make hopping directly over the obstacle impossible. But what the hey, if it makes sense to you ...

Sure I did, but maybe I don't understand your meaning. Why is hopping directly over important? You know you can move through trooper units, right? A 1-speed move is enough to get you over a barrier and into contact on the other side of a mini. I don't think there is any way you can position 6 minis that would deny you any spot to land inside a 1-speed move.

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I would probably give more care to Luke or Veers (whoever was moving) was able to find base contact. If it was then just a case of not being able to balance his model or position it without it toppling over I would be happy enough to treat him as in base contact and put him on the opposite side of the terrain. If however, you moved and fell short of base contact then I would probably play it as range 1.

Something else to be aware of here, if your opponent has painted models, you may want to leave a little gap rather than smashing the models together. So you may find that base contact is a statement of intent rather than a fact at times.

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10 hours ago, nashjaee said:

Sure I did, but maybe I don't understand your meaning. Why is hopping directly over important? You know you can move through trooper units, right? A 1-speed move is enough to get you over a barrier and into contact on the other side of a mini. I don't think there is any way you can position 6 minis that would deny you any spot to land inside a 1-speed move.

Apologies, I misunderstood you. Yes, you're correct about "teleporting" troopers (yet another rule I don't like - I guess I think too "literally" for this game). I was just imagining the attacking unit starting further away and not being allowed to finish on either the obstacle or the enemy minis at the end of its move.

Edited by Don Henderson fan club
changed "being" to "starting"

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7 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

I was just imagining the attacking unit starting further away and not being allowed to finish on either the obstacle or the enemy minis at the end of its move.

Finish on the obstacle?  Ok, maybe a jedi has the skill to stand on a balance beam and fight effectively, though good luck attacking someone at your feet.  But we are talking melee rules.  You expect a standard trooper to stand ON the barrier and be able to go hand to hand with troops behind it?  Keep in mind the units defending have weapons as well.  Or do you just think it is rude and unrealistic that the people behind the barrier aren't backing up to allow the people trying to kill them to get over into a good position to get a swing in?  That it is difficult to get into a good melee position with people standing behind a barrier is very realistic.  That is why riot police use barriers.  That is why you need to flank to get good positioning.  

Try it at home, get a friend and set up a makeshift barrier. Something that can support your weight, a 4'X8' sheet of plywood propped at a 30 degree angle should work.   You both get wiffle bats.  let you friend stand behind the barrier, you have to hit him with your bat before he can hit you.  I promise you with any 2 competent people, the person behind the barrier is going to win that game every time.  

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1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

Finish on the obstacle?  Ok, maybe a jedi has the skill to stand on a balance beam and fight effectively, though good luck attacking someone at your feet.  But we are talking melee rules.  You expect a standard trooper to stand ON the barrier and be able to go hand to hand with troops behind it?  Keep in mind the units defending have weapons as well.  Or do you just think it is rude and unrealistic that the people behind the barrier aren't backing up to allow the people trying to kill them to get over into a good position to get a swing in?  That it is difficult to get into a good melee position with people standing behind a barrier is very realistic.  That is why riot police use barriers.  That is why you need to flank to get good positioning.  

Try it at home, get a friend and set up a makeshift barrier. Something that can support your weight, a 4'X8' sheet of plywood propped at a 30 degree angle should work.   You both get wiffle bats.  let you friend stand behind the barrier, you have to hit him with your bat before he can hit you.  I promise you with any 2 competent people, the person behind the barrier is going to win that game every time.  

I think you might have misunderstood what we were talking about. I know the unit cannot end up on the obstacle - I wrote, "... and not being allowed to finish on either the obstacle ..." I don't want the unit to be on the obstacle, that would be silly. I was just saying if the unit only had enough movement to land on the obstacle or the enemy then the "teleporting" move couldn't be made and therefore the unit couldn't engage in melee. @nashjaee and I simply imagined the attacking unit at different distances from the target - in his mind the unit was close enough to the enemy to hop over both the barricade and the enemy defending it thus ending in base-to-base contact and therefore in melee, while in my mind the unit was too far away to clear the barricade and the enemy thus ending on the wrong side (i.e. the opposite side to the enemy) of the barricade and not being in melee. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

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Sorry, my misunderstanding there.  I see what you mean now.  And yeah, when you are talking small distances, in turn based game representing a real time fight you can get into some strange situations that don't seem quite right. 

In the last game a I played my opponent was coming to kill Veers with Luke.  I backed Veers up to the edge of the barrier he was behind to keep him in cover from the rebels assaulting from the front but as far as possible from Luke who was flanking.  As it turns out with Luke doing a full double move he was about 3mm short of being able to get into base contact.  My opponent had to settle for a blaster shot which I differed to the stormtrooper squad standing by to avoid the damage.  In terms of what happened in a "real world manner": Luke made it to within a foot of being able to attack with his meter long lightsaber, stopped, decided that was too far for his liking, pulled out his blaster and fired that point blank instead. Then had that shot blocked by stormtroopers standing 10' behind his target.  In practical terms it is an absurd scenario, but 100% correct in game terms.  So I don't disagree that there are time when the scenario the rules provide are far from realistic. 

But I do think the barricade preventing melee, even if it is because due to that specific movement length and the troops behind the barricade make it impossible to hop the barrier for that turn, are actually pretty reasonable in a real world case.  I can imagine Luke charging that barricade, knowing he needs to time it just right.  That small slice of time that a game round represents is not enough to clear the barricade and barrel through the troops behind it.  So fire a shot, keep moving, and in the next 4 second he will have hurtled the barricade, tucked in a roll though the storm troopers (or force jumped the lot of them) and come up swinging on the other side.  Likely cutting several of them down.

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On 5/11/2018 at 2:27 PM, xbeaker said:

Sorry, my misunderstanding there.  I see what you mean now.  And yeah, when you are talking small distances, in turn based game representing a real time fight you can get into some strange situations that don't seem quite right. 

In the last game a I played my opponent was coming to kill Veers with Luke.  I backed Veers up to the edge of the barrier he was behind to keep him in cover from the rebels assaulting from the front but as far as possible from Luke who was flanking.  As it turns out with Luke doing a full double move he was about 3mm short of being able to get into base contact.  My opponent had to settle for a blaster shot which I differed to the stormtrooper squad standing by to avoid the damage.  In terms of what happened in a "real world manner": Luke made it to within a foot of being able to attack with his meter long lightsaber, stopped, decided that was too far for his liking, pulled out his blaster and fired that point blank instead. Then had that shot blocked by stormtroopers standing 10' behind his target.  In practical terms it is an absurd scenario, but 100% correct in game terms.  So I don't disagree that there are time when the scenario the rules provide are far from realistic. 

But I do think the barricade preventing melee, even if it is because due to that specific movement length and the troops behind the barricade make it impossible to hop the barrier for that turn, are actually pretty reasonable in a real world case.  I can imagine Luke charging that barricade, knowing he needs to time it just right.  That small slice of time that a game round represents is not enough to clear the barricade and barrel through the troops behind it.  So fire a shot, keep moving, and in the next 4 second he will have hurtled the barricade, tucked in a roll though the storm troopers (or force jumped the lot of them) and come up swinging on the other side.  Likely cutting several of them down.

How was luke able to attack with his blaster after a double move? Charge only lets you melee.

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7 hours ago, SwdPwnzDggr said:

How was luke able to attack with his blaster after a double move? Charge only lets you melee.

Hmm.. you are correct.  I play Imperials.  I thought Luke had the same ability as Vader.  I guess I let a free shot in, good to know for next game!

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