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Commander Kaine

FFG make Wedge's ability bull's eye arc only!

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3 minutes ago, Thormind said:

That was my 1st reation when i saw his text. Seems way more powerful than the rest of the stuff we got previewed so far...

As has been pointed out, it's the exact same ability* he's had for 6 years of 1st edition, most of which it was unplayable for. Is it stronger than it was given the context of 2nd edition generally lowering the power curve? Sure, especially with the new Evade token behavior. I can't imagine it's going to turn out to be anywhere near broken. I feel like Luke's free flowing Force Token ability is probably going to be stronger, honestly. They're both likely to be costed appropriately. In one of the streamed games a Rebel list was Luke, Wedge, and a gold squadron y-wing. In 1.0 you could fit Luke, Wedge and, say, Wes in the same list and include upgrades, so just going by that they've both had their relative costs boosted.

*effectively, anyway. 2nd edition Wedge is better in a small handful of edge cases, like 0 Agility ships(something that didn't exist when he was originally written) at range 3, but is otherwise functionally the same outcome.

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Just now, Otacon said:

As has been pointed out, it's the exact same ability* he's had for 6 years of 1st edition, most of which it was unplayable for. Is it stronger than it was given the context of 2nd edition generally lowering the power curve? Sure, especially with the new Evade token behavior. I can't imagine it's going to turn out to be anywhere near broken. I feel like Luke's free flowing Force Token ability is probably going to be stronger, honestly. They're both likely to be costed appropriately. In one of the streamed games a Rebel list was Luke, Wedge, and a gold squadron y-wing. In 1.0 you could fit Luke, Wedge and, say, Wes in the same list and include upgrades, so just going by that they've both had their relative costs boosted.

*effectively, anyway. 2nd edition Wedge is better in a small handful of edge cases, like 0 Agility ships(something that didn't exist when he was originally written) at range 3, but is otherwise functionally the same outcome.

Another really strong pilot ability compared to the updated ones we have so far is Scum Fenn. He was really strong in 1.0. Now he has the potential to be a beast...

5 minutes ago, jimmius said:

thats because you're dumb lol

reported, those kind of comments have no place here.

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4 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Another really strong pilot ability compared to the updated ones we have so far is Scum Fenn. He was really strong in 1.0. Now he has the potential to be a beast...

Really the only pilot ability that we've seen so far that flat out seems worse is Soontier's. Most of the other ones: Luke, Vader, Howlrunner etc all seem pretty beastly themselves too.

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2 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Norra's Y-Wing ability seems worse than her V1.0 ARC ability... but maybe that's okay. 

 

The only one I hope that does not get changed in Jan Ors

I don't expect her to be in the game anymore. We'll see. If Kyle is there, she probably will be too.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

I'm not really stressed. And why should I feel the need to change?

Well, first off thanks for replying.  As for why you should feel the need to change, I would say the results of this thread should provide some answer.  People talk about how toxic this place can be.  Some threads are and some aren't, and I'd suggest that the perceived tone of the thread's title, and original post provides a LOT of the impetus for the overly negative ones.  So if the fact that you're directly contributing to a toxic environment, and not really getting anything except highly unproductive replies as a result, doesn't bother you, then I guess there is no need to change.  It's certainly not how I'd choose to live my life, but c'est la vie, you know?

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

It's not like being sensible here has any benefits... And to assume anything from my behavior here is questionable at best.

That hasn't been my experience.  And I was not really assuming anything, just using your own words.  If I mis-interpreted them, my apologies.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Look. This is a forum. People don't act like they do in real life. If I pretend to be really all about the empire, and make stupid forum threads, as a sort of satire of part of the fanbase, it is my choice.

Sure, I get that.  I personally don't take on some alter-ego on the internet, at least not consciously.  But I know that plenty do, and that's fine. 

And just so I'm 100% clear, I'm not trying to deny you your choice, simply to understand it.  Not sure what it is you get from it.  But if it's working for you, then be my guest. 

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

This is really no different from the image you or anyone else constructs of themselves when they post here.

The difference from my perspective is that you're the first I've ever seen to openly admit being biased and obnoxious, which clued me in that you knew it, and it's a conscious choice.  That's what got my attention and prompted my reply.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

About the missing information... Well sue me I am excited. It's not like I'm the only one posting threads that overanalyze second edition. Every post is about 2.0. I don't see why this thread is less valuable then the ones discussing its other aspects. Or the 1000th post where someone announces they leave the game because of it.

Excitement is natural, I am pumped about 2nd ed as well.  And I also understand that everybody reacts to it their own way.  Again, I'm not trying to come across as judgemental or condescending.  However, at the same time, I would suggest that perhaps there are better ways to channel that excitement than demanding the company make changes to a part of the game when you clearly don't have enough data to form a properly informed opinion.

Again, thanks for the reply, it has been educational.

 

Edited by direweasel

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2 minutes ago, direweasel said:

That hasn't been my experience.  And I was not really assuming anything, just using your own words.  If I mis-interpreted them, my apologies.

 

I tried to be the voice of reason, but I found that way more stressful. Trying to reason with people on the internet for a sincerely held opinion, WITHOUT trolling and salt is pretty much impossible if you wanna stay sane. 
Even the most well written essay about the balance of the game will get trolled, or wilfully misinterpreted to create drama... 

I simply don't wait for those people to start it. 

Do you honestly believe that the response would have been significantly different without me being the way I am? Do you think that the people would have engaged in a constructive manner about balance, even if I didn't highlight my obvious biases about the situation, therefore creating traffic on the post? 

There were about 5 people answering in a proper manner, kudos for them. I do think however that without the 15 who didn't, they wouldn't have found the thread. 

 

Hate the game, not the player. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

I tried to be the voice of reason, but I found that way more stressful. Trying to reason with people on the internet for a sincerely held opinion, WITHOUT trolling and salt is pretty much impossible if you wanna stay sane. 
Even the most well written essay about the balance of the game will get trolled, or wilfully misinterpreted to create drama... 

1

That hasn't been my experience.  I've been on the internet for over 25 years and I'm fairly certain my sanity is intact.  And I argue politics with some frequency. 

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Do you honestly believe that the response would have been significantly different without me being the way I am? Do you think that the people would have engaged in a constructive manner about balance, even if I didn't highlight my obvious biases about the situation, therefore creating traffic on the post?

 

I think the fact that many of the threads on here do NOT display this kind of vitriol shows that the response would have been different, yet.  "Significantly" is impossible to define, but yes.  I think it  COULD have been different.   It would all depend on the construction of the title and the tone.  As the creator of a thread, you have the opportunity to set the tone.  If you choose to make it combative, that is completely your prerogative, but don't act shocked when the results are combative as well. 

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

There were about 5 people answering in a proper manner, kudos for them. I do think however that without the 15 who didn't, they wouldn't have found the thread.

 

Trolls exist on the internet.  It is impossible to avoid or exterminate them all.  So maybe instead of a 5/15 ratio, you could have achieved a 10/3 ratio positive to negative.  Just making up numbers here, but you get my point.  The "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality you see to be advocating is not really a valid solution, in my opinion.  But again, if it's what you want to do, have fun.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Hate the game, not the player. 

 

I'm far too apathetic to hate anybody or anything.  I simply don't get emotionally invested in these things is all.  Perhaps that answers why I don't have the sanity issues you think I should, for the way I approach these sorts of conversations.  Just intellectually curious, is all.

Edited by direweasel

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2 hours ago, Wiredin said:

Norra's Y-Wing ability seems worse than her V1.0 ARC ability... but maybe that's okay. 

Well, without ptl her old ability would be hard to get of reliably and adding dice results is a rarity  in 2.0, especially when she gets it against all attacks  if you position her right. Might be strong if swarm make a comeback. That said, her new ability is certainly less interesting. 

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2 hours ago, Duskwalker said:

Well, without ptl her old ability would be hard to get of reliably and adding dice results is a rarity  in 2.0, especially when she gets it against all attacks  if you position her right. Might be strong if swarm make a comeback. That said, her new ability is certainly less interesting. 

I get her ability off pretty regularly in 1.0 right now with VI and Rey. But yea, these combos will not exist soon. 

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Maybe I missed it, but where are the two pilots being compared? I've looked everywhere and I can't find the pictures of the cards, or even just where someone wrote the abilities and statline for wedge or fel anywhere in this thread.

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15 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

Maybe I missed it, but where are the two pilots being compared? I've looked everywhere and I can't find the pictures of the cards, or even just where someone wrote the abilities and statline for wedge or fel anywhere in this thread.

Wedge, when attacking, reduces the number of defense dice rolled by his target by 1.

Soontir gains a Focus token when there is an enemy ship inside his Bullseye arc.

Why there's been an attempt to directly compare them I don't know. It's worth keeping in mind that outside of his ability, Soontir benefits from the baked in pseudo PTL that all Interceptors get, with being able to Boost or Barrel Roll as a red action after taking any other action. So there's that, and you know, points costs, that will be additional factors in balancing the ships and abilities.

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On 5/9/2018 at 9:39 PM, ficklegreendice said:

Or hey, palpatine gives action independent modifiers across the table. That's a BIG no-no. Put a bullseye-only on him 

Literally lol'd when I got to this one

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In response to OP, I think you've framed the question poorly.

It's not FFG's premise that "abilities ought to be bullseye arc only when possible, to make them less reliable/skill-dependent", if we're being honest it's actually that "abilities that need their behavior curbed somehow can be relegated to bullseye arc only, to increase the difficulty/reliability".  And that's an important factor, too; do we have any real numbers on how much more often, over the course of a normal game, an enemy ship is not in your bullseye arc but is in your regular arc?  Obviously that number's going to be higher at range 3, but a lot lower at range 1.  So it's not to be missed: bullseye arc adds an element of range-dependence to abilities which depend on it.  I wonder why Soontir needed to be discouraged from flying at Range 3... Anyways, what other cards have changed to include bullseye now?

Predator was almost overpowered.  Bullseye arc now, plus no PS dependence.  Crack Shot was good enough to make TIE Swarms briefly resurge, even in the midst of the rise of ships that could stare hard at 2 attack dice and take no damage.  Bullseye arc now.  (Marksmanship has always sucked and it's even worse now, text-wise, maybe it's a 0 point upgrade.)  They're using it as another variable in the nerf equation, there's no doubt about it, because balancing with point costs gets stale and some cards might not be broken no matter what cost, other than effectively outright banning them.  So the question is really "did Soontir need a nerf while Wedge did not?"  And I'd say that the answer to that is ostensibly yes.

Was Wedge's ability too good?  Hard to say, right?  He didn't get table time.  The X-Wing revamps haven't even hit the stores yet, we just don't know how much he'd be seen with the new toys around.  (My gut tells me probably not, I think Wes and Luke are two X-Wings I'd pick before Wedge, but my gut has been known to be wrong/easily irritated by seafood)

Was Soontir's ability too good?  Yeah, basically.  He's been the only TIE Interceptor that saw table time since the brief flashes in the pan of triple interceptors (which only included non-Soontir pilots because of that pesky unique restriction) and Carnor's claim to fame in the Imperial A-Holes list.

So there's already one difference between Soontir and Wedge, and I think it's something you failed to acknowledge in your original post: that Soontir is clearly the best TIE Interceptor pilot whereas Wedge does not clearly hold the "best X-Wing pilot" title.  So, Soontir's a prime candidate for getting cut down a notch.  His ability also encouraged behavior that went against what they were hoping for, objectives-wise.  If the objective is "win the game by destroying your opponents' ships", Soontir didn't really exist to pursue that objective for you as much as he did deny the possibility of reaching that objective for your opponent.  How do you know?  If you boosted & barrel rolled to make it to Range 3, getting a focus from Soontir's ability, I don't care WHAT your red dice roll was, there's a 100% chance that you didn't spend that focus token on offense.  That's how you know.  That's certainly something else that would make a lot of sense for FFG to try to reign in if they're revisiting the philosophy of the game; Soontir's ability in 1.0 and how it saw usage is not nearly as oriented at helping you directly achieve the game-win condition as Wedge's, so Soontir's got changed so that triggering his ability is now only possible when you're in position to fire.  If you were jousting with Soontir, though, then the change to his ability makes him behave almost exactly the same.  Better, possibly?  Don't have to do a blue maneuver every turn, potentially.  Lastly, I think TIE Interceptors as a whole didn't exist the way a) FFG wanted and b) how they existed in canon.  Point wasn't for them to just shrug off attacks until they could engage on their terms, and I think FFG revealed their intentions with the Concord Dawn title: not interested, overall, in helping 3 AGI ships survive unless they're actively engaging the opponent.  Spoiler alert, Autothrusters wasn't an Interceptor buff, it was a turret nerf that only Interceptors and A-Wings could take.  And also FFG got tired of everyone's anectdotal story about Soontir getting one-shotted at Range 3 behind a rock so they threw in Range 3 to shut them up.  In old canon, Kyle Katarn says, "Your generic TIE grunt is just plain suicidal. And the TIE Defender jockey is bloodthirsty. But the TIE Interceptor pilot, he's suicidal and bloodthirsty."  'Suicidal' is hardly the description that you could apply to TIE Interceptor players.  Cautious and calculating, sure.  That's probably a feel they want to put more in the territory of TIE Phantoms (which in 1.0 probably fit the 'suicidal and bloodthirsty' bill a lot more than Interceptors), although whether they accomplished THAT is surely something that remains to be seen.  I think they want TIE Interceptors to play a lot more aggressively, and by removing Soontir's ability EXCEPT when he's playing highly aggressively is the most straightforward way to change the on-the-board feel of this particular pilot.  Otherwise, you're just going to fly him like before, right?  It makes the ship more distinctive and more accurate to canon, and while canonicity should be strictly less important than balance, if you can achieve both, you should try to.  And I think they're betting heavily on their new system to provide them with the tools they need to maintain balance.

 

Tl;dr: the nail that sticks out gets hammered; Soontir stuck out, Wedge did not.

Overzealous?  Unbalanced?  Remains to be seen.

 

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21 minutes ago, Sparklelord said:

In response to OP, I think you've framed the question poorly.

It's not FFG's premise that "abilities ought to be bullseye arc only when possible, to make them less reliable/skill-dependent", if we're being honest it's actually that "abilities that need their behavior curbed somehow can be relegated to bullseye arc only, to increase the difficulty/reliability".  And that's an important factor, too; do we have any real numbers on how much more often, over the course of a normal game, an enemy ship is not in your bullseye arc but is in your regular arc?  Obviously that number's going to be higher at range 3, but a lot lower at range 1.  So it's not to be missed: bullseye arc adds an element of range-dependence to abilities which depend on it.  I wonder why Soontir needed to be discouraged from flying at Range 3... Anyways, what other cards have changed to include bullseye now?

Predator was almost overpowered.  Bullseye arc now, plus no PS dependence.  Crack Shot was good enough to make TIE Swarms briefly resurge, even in the midst of the rise of ships that could stare hard at 2 attack dice and take no damage.  Bullseye arc now.  (Marksmanship has always sucked and it's even worse now, text-wise, maybe it's a 0 point upgrade.)  They're using it as another variable in the nerf equation, there's no doubt about it, because balancing with point costs gets stale and some cards might not be broken no matter what cost, other than effectively outright banning them.  So the question is really "did Soontir need a nerf while Wedge did not?"  And I'd say that the answer to that is ostensibly yes.

Was Wedge's ability too good?  Hard to say, right?  He didn't get table time.  The X-Wing revamps haven't even hit the stores yet, we just don't know how much he'd be seen with the new toys around.  (My gut tells me probably not, I think Wes and Luke are two X-Wings I'd pick before Wedge, but my gut has been known to be wrong/easily irritated by seafood)

Was Soontir's ability too good?  Yeah, basically.  He's been the only TIE Interceptor that saw table time since the brief flashes in the pan of triple interceptors (which only included non-Soontir pilots because of that pesky unique restriction) and Carnor's claim to fame in the Imperial A-Holes list.

So there's already one difference between Soontir and Wedge, and I think it's something you failed to acknowledge in your original post: that Soontir is clearly the best TIE Interceptor pilot whereas Wedge does not clearly hold the "best X-Wing pilot" title.  So, Soontir's a prime candidate for getting cut down a notch.  His ability also encouraged behavior that went against what they were hoping for, objectives-wise.  If the objective is "win the game by destroying your opponents' ships", Soontir didn't really exist to pursue that objective for you as much as he did deny the possibility of reaching that objective for your opponent.  How do you know?  If you boosted & barrel rolled to make it to Range 3, getting a focus from Soontir's ability, I don't care WHAT your red dice roll was, there's a 100% chance that you didn't spend that focus token on offense.  That's how you know.  That's certainly something else that would make a lot of sense for FFG to try to reign in if they're revisiting the philosophy of the game; Soontir's ability in 1.0 and how it saw usage is not nearly as oriented at helping you directly achieve the game-win condition as Wedge's, so Soontir's got changed so that triggering his ability is now only possible when you're in position to fire.  If you were jousting with Soontir, though, then the change to his ability makes him behave almost exactly the same.  Better, possibly?  Don't have to do a blue maneuver every turn, potentially.  Lastly, I think TIE Interceptors as a whole didn't exist the way a) FFG wanted and b) how they existed in canon.  Point wasn't for them to just shrug off attacks until they could engage on their terms, and I think FFG revealed their intentions with the Concord Dawn title: not interested, overall, in helping 3 AGI ships survive unless they're actively engaging the opponent.  Spoiler alert, Autothrusters wasn't an Interceptor buff, it was a turret nerf that only Interceptors and A-Wings could take.  And also FFG got tired of everyone's anectdotal story about Soontir getting one-shotted at Range 3 behind a rock so they threw in Range 3 to shut them up.  In old canon, Kyle Katarn says, "Your generic TIE grunt is just plain suicidal. And the TIE Defender jockey is bloodthirsty. But the TIE Interceptor pilot, he's suicidal and bloodthirsty."  'Suicidal' is hardly the description that you could apply to TIE Interceptor players.  Cautious and calculating, sure.  That's probably a feel they want to put more in the territory of TIE Phantoms (which in 1.0 probably fit the 'suicidal and bloodthirsty' bill a lot more than Interceptors), although whether they accomplished THAT is surely something that remains to be seen.  I think they want TIE Interceptors to play a lot more aggressively, and by removing Soontir's ability EXCEPT when he's playing highly aggressively is the most straightforward way to change the on-the-board feel of this particular pilot.  Otherwise, you're just going to fly him like before, right?  It makes the ship more distinctive and more accurate to canon, and while canonicity should be strictly less important than balance, if you can achieve both, you should try to.  And I think they're betting heavily on their new system to provide them with the tools they need to maintain balance.

 

Tl;dr: the nail that sticks out gets hammered; Soontir stuck out, Wedge did not.

Overzealous?  Unbalanced?  Remains to be seen.

 

Fair points. 

We shall see how it all works out. 

Thanks for the reply

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On 5/10/2018 at 9:34 AM, ficklegreendice said:

Agreed completely

Though they may end up costing the same, force benefits v highest possible initiative (worth a lot since vi is gone)

All we know so far is Luke, Wedge, and a gold vet make a squad. Seems like a fun one too

Who streamed the game with the Luke, Wedge, gold vet squad? Having trouble finiding it.

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12 hours ago, DekoPuma said:

You've been waiting three years for this, haven't you? 

Hahaha Been waiting so long for something like the new Renegade Refit, and the Servomotor S-Foils cards. Wedge is going to be awesome, a little sad to be losing the choose-your-crit Integrated Astro effect, and the ability to choose if you want to do your Tallons, but I'm glad for all the Second Edition changes overall. I'm putting Wedge in all my lists again. 

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