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Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun

SOLO, Confirmation of Imperial Army Units

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1 hour ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:

 

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See..  I admit this picture intrigues me.  Sure it is Han being Han probably, but the way the stormies are standing around him not pointing guns leads me to wonder in how the troopers fit they have body language that conveys derision.  I honestly think these “mudtroopers” are less than the stormtrooper regulars, but I wonder how.   

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1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

See..  I admit this picture intrigues me.  Sure it is Han being Han probably, but the way the stormies are standing around him not pointing guns leads me to wonder in how the troopers fit they have body language that conveys derision.  I honestly think these “mudtroopers” are less than the stormtrooper regulars, but I wonder how.   

Interservice rivalry, like an Army vs USMC thing?  Or maybe just the level of derision of leg infantry<Airborne<Ranger<SF?

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The way I always saw it, and correct me if I’m wrong, was that the Stormtrooper Corp was an independent “assault force” and only garrisoned high value facilities and openly hostile planets (aside from small units at the disposal of the local governor).  The Army was the main garrison/“cleanup force”.

Basically, Stormtroopers captured a planet, Army troops secured it afterwards.

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Im betting in a large and diverse galaxy uniforms are going to differ. fringe worlds might not be given the stipend for gear and/or troops in a long campaign will adjust their attire to suit the situation. As far as AT-ST troops wearing helmets, in a combat zone a helmet is a buddy.

Id wear a Rancors codpiece for a helmet if it would stop a blaster bolt or Ewok spear from punching my ticket!  

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On 5/10/2018 at 3:10 AM, Don Henderson fan club said:

From the existing portrayal of the Stormtrooper Corps in the films (who are always acting in concert with the Imperial Navy), I would say it is more like the difference between the US Marine Corps and the US Army.

Could also be that Stormtroopers are the Empire's Regular Force and mudtroopers act as reservists / National Guard.

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1 hour ago, wintermoonwolf said:

...also....nice CAPES.....really nice!

 

is the cape as superman.....or a cape like the roman legion.....or maybe just a cape used by civil war officers against the cold of winter???.....

Could also be ponchos or something similar, intended to help keep some of the rain off. 

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As @wintermoonwolf pointed out we maybe should look at the word storm in stormtrooper. Maybe they are the frontline troopers for short/initial engagements wereas the army troopers purpose are sieges, trench warfare and other forms oft attrition fighting. Or they are just good for muddy worlds, because they have no breathing filter which can be closed oft by mud.

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....an old instructor of mine from infantry schule explained that the wwi germans built specialty units for the offensive in late war (~1918) that would "storm" narrow salients to create a breach, secure a foothold, and pass through follow on battalions to exploit their success....  ....these storm battalions were filled with cream troops and hand picked NCOs; and given some of the best gear....because if these storm battalions failed; well then the offensive would fail....they were the best and had the best equipment....   ...just my zwei pfennig on the topic... 

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Exactly. The SW Stormtroopers are inspired by the WW1 german Stormtroopers. Body armour, grenades and cqb weapons. Thats the reason they have such a good hand to hand stat and only white dice for range 1-3.

They are using the E-11 (a sub machine gun) in cqb. Preferably in a cramped environment.

 

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18 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

As @wintermoonwolf pointed out we maybe should look at the word storm in stormtrooper. Maybe they are the frontline troopers for short/initial engagements wereas the army troopers purpose are sieges, trench warfare and other forms oft attrition fighting. Or they are just good for muddy worlds, because they have no breathing filter which can be closed oft by mud.

 

Except that's never how they're depicted.  They're the garrison forces on Tatooine and the Death Star in ANH, on the prison planet and Jedha in Rogue One, and to a lesser extent on Endor in RotJ.  About the only time we see them as true sturmtruppen is in the opening scene of ANH. 

 

 

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@Alpha17That's why I tried to reinterpret it into frontline/initial engagement troops. In this variant the stormtroopers would be for garrisons and all other kinds of functions which militarily represent the empire. The army troopers would then be used in any engagement which gets into prolonged attrition fighting. Just being deployed into the battles which have already proven to be **** and where representation isn't an issue anymore(trench warfare). So stormtroopers would be the poster boys and army troopers would be thrown into the publically unknown/uninteresting meat grinders.

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I think Stormtroopers are most likely the main line soldiers of the imperial army while "mudtroopers" or imperial army troopers are going to be more along the lines of penal battalions, reserves or local militia forces mustered in for service to the empire. A dumping ground for political dissidents, criminals and failed officers.  

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On 5/12/2018 at 7:29 AM, wintermoonwolf said:

...also....nice CAPES.....really nice!

 

is the cape as superman.....or a cape like the roman legion.....or maybe just a cape used by civil war officers against the cold of winter???.....

IKR, everyone in Star Wars gets a cape, even Storm Troopers now get one and yet if we wear capes in public the police get called on us so we can be taken back to the adult care facility.

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18 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

 

Except that's never how they're depicted.  They're the garrison forces on Tatooine and the Death Star in ANH, on the prison planet and Jedha in Rogue One, and to a lesser extent on Endor in RotJ.  About the only time we see them as true sturmtruppen is in the opening scene of ANH. 

I didn't think the Tatooine troopers were meant to be garrison troops. I had understood they had been landed by the Star Destroyers to search for the droids, and were enacting a very temporary form of occupation. I didn't get the sense that those troops had been based there on an extended basis.

The Death Star and Jedha, yes, but as someone pointed out earlier these were both key pieces of secret projects... and Jedha was in the grips of an active insurgency by a particularly desperate band of rebels. Somewhere you might reinforce with higher quality troops, and also a relatively small occupation, going by the fact there only seemed to be one major city, so not where you necessarily need a large permanent garrison force. Same applies to Endor, which was again a key part of a major secret project, and the site of a plan to specifically trap and destroy the Rebels.

Their appearances in the original films is entirely explainable as roles given to an elite force ("Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise"). Their performance maybe less so (mainly the dismal discipline demonstrated at Endor. "Look, cannibal teddy bears! Quick, scatter and chase them into the forest!"), and I agree their portrayal in films and TV series since doesn't really support anything more elite other than "These guys are the Empire's Army."

I like to think of the Stormtroopers are a bit like the Imperium's Space Marines (though nowhere near as elite, obviously!). A rapid response force, deployed on the ships which can be dropped wherever at short notice. Once something get larger scale or more long term, the less mobile Army forces could be moved in.

 

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18 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

@Alpha17That's why I tried to reinterpret it into frontline/initial engagement troops. In this variant the stormtroopers would be for garrisons and all other kinds of functions which militarily represent the empire. The army troopers would then be used in any engagement which gets into prolonged attrition fighting. Just being deployed into the battles which have already proven to be **** and where representation isn't an issue anymore(trench warfare). So stormtroopers would be the poster boys and army troopers would be thrown into the publically unknown/uninteresting meat grinders.

The problem with that is that Jedha would classify as an attritional struggle.  Most counter-insurgency operations are, and yet we had stormies over mud crunchers.  The idea that it was super important and warranted better troops for occupation duty doesn't stand up to the film either; if that much effort was being made, the Empire could have/would have deployed more forces to the region, and actively hunted down and killed Saw's group.

1 hour ago, borithan said:

I didn't think the Tatooine troopers were meant to be garrison troops. I had understood they had been landed by the Star Destroyers to search for the droids, and were enacting a very temporary form of occupation. I didn't get the sense that those troops had been based there on an extended basis.

The Death Star and Jedha, yes, but as someone pointed out earlier these were both key pieces of secret projects... and Jedha was in the grips of an active insurgency by a particularly desperate band of rebels. Somewhere you might reinforce with higher quality troops, and also a relatively small occupation, going by the fact there only seemed to be one major city, so not where you necessarily need a large permanent garrison force. Same applies to Endor, which was again a key part of a major secret project, and the site of a plan to specifically trap and destroy the Rebels.

Their appearances in the original films is entirely explainable as roles given to an elite force ("Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise"). Their performance maybe less so (mainly the dismal discipline demonstrated at Endor. "Look, cannibal teddy bears! Quick, scatter and chase them into the forest!"), and I agree their portrayal in films and TV series since doesn't really support anything more elite other than "These guys are the Empire's Army."

I like to think of the Stormtroopers are a bit like the Imperium's Space Marines (though nowhere near as elite, obviously!). A rapid response force, deployed on the ships which can be dropped wherever at short notice. Once something get larger scale or more long term, the less mobile Army forces could be moved in.

 

I forgot to add the Stormtroopers on the Ring of Kafrene to the list of places they were deployed as garrison troops.

Tatooine may not have been full garrison, but they certainly were in occupational duty.  The initial deployment of Sandtroopers by the Devastator would make sense if they were shock troops, but deploying them to cities to keep up searching for droids does not.  The Empire had time and resources to call in other Star Destroyers, so why wouldn't they have deployed Imperial Army troops?  

 

I love the idea of a separate Imperial Army, but I think role wise it does much the same as the Stormtrooper Corps, perhaps with just more mechanization.  Stormtroopers are considered elite because they: 1. Get the cool armor, and thus are distinctive 2. "Are so precise" 3. have the legacy of the Clone Troopers

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Imperial Army Troopers do add an interesting challenge to existing Star Wars lore... basically, how do they fit?

Is it possible that these Troopers are the "enlisted" people representing their planet? More of an Empire backed planetary defense Force? Stormtroopers are deployed around the Galaxy, occupy Star Destroyers and major projects, etc. However, theoretically most of these planets would have had their own militaries before and during the Empire. I doubt every standing army was enlisted into the Stormtrooper Corps... perhaps many stayed deployed on whatever planet they called home?

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1 hour ago, Copes said:

Imperial Army Troopers do add an interesting challenge to existing Star Wars lore... basically, how do they fit?

Is it possible that these Troopers are the "enlisted" people representing their planet? More of an Empire backed planetary defense Force? Stormtroopers are deployed around the Galaxy, occupy Star Destroyers and major projects, etc. However, theoretically most of these planets would have had their own militaries before and during the Empire. I doubt every standing army was enlisted into the Stormtrooper Corps... perhaps many stayed deployed on whatever planet they called home?

That was their original background in the old RPG material wasn't it? That the Stormtroopers were the successors to the Clone Legions, while the Imperial Army was all the non-Clone Republic forces - local militias, Judicial Force units, etc - that had been amalgamated under the GAR just renamed and assigned COMPNOR/ISB officials to monitor loyalty.

I think people are getting too hung up on "like/inspired by strumtruppen" - they're not meant to be a 1:1 conversion of the concept, that's just where their idea and core intended role and loadout initially comes from. A better way to think about it is "Stormtroopers do important things, Imperial Army does everything else".

Also Jedha was less a full-on occupation and more a smash & grab. The Empire didn't care about controlling the place in the long term, their single goal was to loot every last Kyber crystal they could find and then bugger off. They likely would have bombarded the place to ashes in their wake just with Star Destroyers even if Tarkin hadn't pushed for a test firing. That kind of important, temporary, high-intensity operation - like moving in to control Tatooine, a Hutt planet really, to search for the droids - is a much better fit for a force like Stormtroopers than for a regular Army force with less armour, less training, and inferior discipline/loyalty to the Emperor.

Edited by Yodhrin

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2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

The problem with that is that Jedha would classify as an attritional struggle.  Most counter-insurgency operations are, and yet we had stormies over mud crunchers.  The idea that it was super important and warranted better troops for occupation duty doesn't stand up to the film either; if that much effort was being made, the Empire could have/would have deployed more forces to the region, and actively hunted down and killed Saw's group.

I forgot to add the Stormtroopers on the Ring of Kafrene to the list of places they were deployed as garrison troops.

Tatooine may not have been full garrison, but they certainly were in occupational duty.  The initial deployment of Sandtroopers by the Devastator would make sense if they were shock troops, but deploying them to cities to keep up searching for droids does not.  The Empire had time and resources to call in other Star Destroyers, so why wouldn't they have deployed Imperial Army troops?  

They weren't exactly there long. The droids leave the planet... what, about 4 days after they arrive? Land on the planet, then picked up by Jawas... check.... sold to the Larses, then R2 runs away... check... Luke chases after him the next morning, ambushed by Sand People, rescued by Obi Wan, and  returns to find his crispy fried aunt and uncle... check... arrive Mos Eisley and then seem to depart the same day... check. That makes 4 days. Ok, there may have been more between R2 and C-3PO being captured by the Jawas and then maybe an additional day on the way to Mos Eisley, but we have no real evidence of that. 4 days to alert another planet you need additional ground troops, load them up and then transport them, land and unload them, all for what would be seen as a short term assignment? Not sure anyone could justify that. Instead rely on the Stormtrooper detachment on the Devastator, and maybe reinforcements from the nearby patrolling Star Destroyers you have called for the job. Or maybe extra troops were on the way, but had not arrived yet? I would not expect a meaningful force to have been transported from another planet in the time before the droids leave the planet.

I will give you the "Ring of Kafrene" (once I found out what it was). Not that we see a whole load, but what we did didn't suggest anything terribly significant that would suggest an "elite" presence. But this is also one of the newer (non-original trilogy) films, which I accept do point more towards the Stormtroopers just being standard Imperial ground forces.

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