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J1mBob

New Vader TIE Cost Speculation

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On one of the streams, a dev mentioned that the Vader build, flying with 4x Crack Blacks, was 84 points. Now I’m going to speculate what that means for some card prices. 

First, I’ll assume the whole list was 200 points spot on. I believe I remember them rolling for initiative, so this seems somewhat likely. Next, TIE Fighters are essentially unchanged from 1.0 (I do believe they decided to recalibrate the game to the original strength of the lowly TIE Fighter). If I assume that TIE Fighter prices are also unchanged but doubled for the new 200 point scale, I can guess that Black Squadron TIE’s are 28 points each. Then they were equipped with the new Crack Shot, which works the same as the old Crack Shot, except it only works in that wonderful bullseye arc. So I’m going to assume the new Black Shot is worth less than the old one because of the bullseye requirement, and call it 1 point on the 200 point scale. 

So taking 200 points and subtracting 29 points per Black Crack x4 gets you 84 points remaining. So based on this, I’ll assume that the 84 points cited by the dev is the kitted out Vader cost. 

Vader had the following upgrades:

Sense: During the System Phase, you may choose 1 ship at range 0-1 and look at its dial. If you spend 1 (force), you may choose a ship at range 0-3 instead.

Sense is similar to Intelligence Agent: Before activation, look at dial range 1-2.

IA is 1 point in the old system. A starting point is to say Sense is 2 points in the new system. 

Fire Control System

Old Text: After you perform an attack, you may acquire a target lock on the defender. 

New Text: While you perform an attack, if you have a lock on the defender, you may reroll one die. If you do, you cannot spend your lock during this attack. 

Nothing like each other. This is better than new Predator because you don’t need bullseye arc. It’s more like old Predator, except for the lock requirement. Old Predator would be 6 points if unadjusted in the new point system. Since it showed up a lot and was one of the strongest choices, I’m going to say it’s really worth 7 points. But the requirement to have a lock on the target weakens it considerably. As a stab in the dark, I’m going to say the new Fire Control System is worth 4 points. 

New Cluster Missiles have built-in Extra Munitions. A nerf to New Clusters is that to get a double attack, you have to have an additional target within range 0-1 and you can’t shoot at the same ship twice.  Old Clusters was 4, so a good starting point is to call the new ones 8.

84 Vader - 2 pts (Sense) - 4 pts (FCS) - 8 pts (Clusters) = 70 points

70 is 35 in the old scale. Vader used to be 29 points, 30 points with title and ATC, which is now “baked in” (although the baked in ATC is weaker than the original). But Vader’s new ability seems very powerful, being able to perform up to four actions. And this ability is surrounded by action starved 2.0 ships... And finally, Vader’s Initiative of 6 is currently understood to be the highest possible Initiative.

I enjoyed this exercise, so there’s no need to tell me to just wait for the official values. But what do you think? Does this estimate ring true? And is the new Vader worth 70ish points, possibly compared to a 44 point low initiative TIE Advanced generic?

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Alex mentioned in the TC panel that the Academy TIE was going to be about 25pts give or take a couple points. Roughly double its original cost. They notioned to the idea that most ships they considered 'Okay' points wise would simply be doubled to start, and tweaked from there.

I think you're pretty spot on what it will end up being. With the tweaks made to the X1 and the 'Ace Tax' that all Initiative 6 pilots will apparently have, it seems about right when compared to the old scale.

Edited by BVRCH

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Not to mention with the app nothing is concrete. Best thing about 2.0 the unmoving stones are moldable clay now if vader is too cheap or expensive it takes less time to change than it does to talk about. Nice reasoning though J1mbob, I think you’re really close. Time will tell if it’s a good number.

Edited by LordFajubi

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I’d be surprised if new-crackshot was only 1 point. Old-crackshot was always one of the best 1-pt EPTs in the game.  In 2.0 im sure it would have been nudged up to 3 points. So the new bullseye only version would fit nicely at 2 points, I think. 

Other than that your estimates seem reasonable to me. :)

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16 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

I’d be surprised if new-crackshot was only 1 point. Old-crackshot was always one of the best 1-pt EPTs in the game.  In 2.0 im sure it would have been nudged up to 3 points. So the new bullseye only version would fit nicely at 2 points, I think. 

Other than that your estimates seem reasonable to me. :)

 

The opportunity cost on the EPT slot is massive, and the fact that the area the bullseye arc covers less than 20% of your fire arc makes crackshot pretty average now TBH, it hasn’t really been in top tier lists recently either as VI reigns supreme.

 

Additionally with the apparent reduction of action efficiency players will be looking for something that gives them incremental advantage across the whole game not a single use card that they may only ever be able to activate 1-2 times a game and possibly for no effect if you roll badly during those very few windows of opportunity.

 

1 point in the new 200 point format is what it will need to cost to even be considered, anything more and its too expensive.

Edited by Mace Windu

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31 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

I’d be surprised if new-crackshot was only 1 point. Old-crackshot was always one of the best 1-pt EPTs in the game.  In 2.0 im sure it would have been nudged up to 3 points. So the new bullseye only version would fit nicely at 2 points, I think. 

Other than that your estimates seem reasonable to me. :)

If crackshot didn't get cheaper then the black ties did, as otherwise you couldn't run four of them with an 84 point Vader.

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2 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

So just looking into flights looks like my best bet for Thursday gets in at 7 in the evening, when does your flight land?

Eh? ?

 

2 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

If crackshot didn't get cheaper then the black ties did, as otherwise you couldn't run four of them with an 84 point Vader.

Was it confirmed that Vader was 84 points? I thought the OP deduced that price by working backwards, but if it was confirmed then nevermind, you can just ignore me. 

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I'm expecting Vader to be more expensive than his original version, because his ability is WAY better and double repositioning and double modding is WAY rarer.

I'm expecting there to be VERY few pilots who can take more than one action in a round without one of them being red, and I'm expecting very few pilots who can get full focus AND TL in the same round as well.  And as regards double reposition I'm expecting it to be all but impossible.

Vader can do all three.

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8 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Didn't Vader have Afterburners?  That would push him more towards the 60 point range.

You are correct, at least in the BOLS video. I couldn’t re-find the twitch stream. Did Vader have Afterburners in the Challenge Matches too?

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Afterburners allows you to Boost after a 3-5 speed maneuver (even if you’re stressed), and it has two charges. We haven’t seen any way to recharge these types of upgrades. 

To guesstimate the cost of this card, I’m going to think in terms of old points. The old EU was 4 points. Now you can only do the boost after a 3-5 speed maneuver. That limitation probably makes it worth at least 1 point cheaper, maybe 2 points. Additionally, you can only do it twice. So let’s say a solid 3 points cheaper now. But now it’s an action less  boost, so it’s more action efficient. That’s worth a point.... final guesstimate (mumble mumble carry the two... square root...) of 4 points in the new points system. 

84 points - 2 (Sense) - 4 (FCS) - 8 (Clusters) - 4 (Afterburners) = 66 point naked Vader. 

Old point scale this would’ve been a 33 point Vader, 4 more than the original 29 point Vader. I believe I read somewhere that a naked Luke is 60 points. 

Of course all of this is guess work and the app allows them to change the costs as necessary. But it’s fun to make guesses as we wait for the next article. 

Edited by J1mBob
Removed incorrect “free boost” wording

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In addition to it being a free boost, Afterburners can be used while stressed. That might have added a half point in the old system, not enough t drive it up to 4 there.  Most stuff has doubled into the new system, but I don't think it'll be an 8 point upgrade. 5 feels right in my head but until seeing other upgrades that'll be harder to tell. So maybe 4 is correct.

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13 minutes ago, Ixidor said:

In addition to it being a free boost, Afterburners can be used while stressed. That might have added a half point in the old system, not enough t drive it up to 4 there.  Most stuff has doubled into the new system, but I don't think it'll be an 8 point upgrade. 5 feels right in my head but until seeing other upgrades that'll be harder to tell. So maybe 4 is correct.

Yes I forgot to mention that Afterburners works while stressed. So my comment that it’s a “free boost” is incorrect. I’ll edit.

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