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Darth Meanie

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@Darth Meanie - I enjoyed playing X-Wing with you, and I understand you're frustrated... but please stop. Or at least, keep it in your original thread please? You're burning bridges at this point.

Edited by LagJanson
Triggered by my own usage of wrong words

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Yeah, you're making me more than a little sad. I always have had a great deal of respect for you as one of the few people on these forums who is completely committed to casual play.

I would have thought you would be able to see that 

-the investment in converting 2.0 is drastically less than having to repurchase everything, no matter how inconvenient the specific ship distribution is compared to your collection

-FFG doesn't owe us anything, and could have easily not made conversion kits a thing at all. It's nice they're being offered at all, and many people such as myself would have been ok actually repurchasing everything in order to get a better game

-2.0 is not required in casual play anyway. Download the app if you'd like and then proxy cards/borrow cardboard, or just keep flying 1.0

-it was either 2.0 or bust. Would you rather X-Wing just died and there was nobody to play with, or that you had to pay about a 5-10% property tax to keep playing?

Sorry for the semi-rant, but I really respect you as a bastion of our community and I'd like to steer you off of this self-destructive course if possible. 

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19 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I would have thought you would be able to see that 

-the investment in converting 2.0 is drastically less than having to repurchase everything, no matter how inconvenient the specific ship distribution is compared to your collection

-FFG doesn't owe us anything, and could have easily not made conversion kits a thing at all. It's nice they're being offered at all, and many people such as myself would have been ok actually repurchasing everything in order to get a better game

-2.0 is not required in casual play anyway. Download the app if you'd like and then proxy cards/borrow cardboard, or just keep flying 1.0

-it was either 2.0 or bust. Would you rather X-Wing just died and there was nobody to play with, or that you had to pay about a 5-10% property tax to keep playing?

I wish people would stop saying things like this as if they make it ok.

Yes, buying a Ferrari is cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Guess what? That doesn't make the Ferrari any cheaper, or make it any more affordable.

No, FFG doesn't owe us anything. Nor do we owe them anything. We're allowed to think the price of a product is unreasonable.

Sure, we can keep playing 1.0 but we don't want to for a range of reasons.

I would rather they FINISH the game and stop releasing new mechanics with every wave. Hopefully that is the case in 2.0 but time will tell.

Like I've said on various threads, I don't want FFG to cater to me personally or make the transition any cheaper. I'm happy to shop around, proxy, and use third party parts where available to both enhance my playing experience and make it more affordable. What I would LIKE though is some acknowledgement from the wider X Wing community that the cost of upgrading to 2.0 hurts for a lot of people, and in some cases is unreasonably high. Repeated mantras of "Well, at least FFG isn't setting your house on fire! It could be worse" help no one. We're a community and we should be pulling together rather than telling people they're stupid for not being able to comfortably afford the 2.0 conversion, or they're wrong for not thinking it's a great bargain. If there was just a touch of "Yeah man, it's gonna be pretty expensive. That's less than ideal. Hopefully you can work something out" then I think we'd all feel a lot better about things.

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2 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I would rather they FINISH the game and stop releasing new mechanics with every wave.

Your wish is granted. FFG Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures Game first edition is finished, and there will be no more new mechanics released after the new wave hits the stores. 

On a more serious note. 

Percentage wise, most people are getting out of this conversion kit way better than it could be expected. If you think that you have a collection way bigger than what most people have, and that percentage cost is still high, well, don't be mad for people not feeling for you. That's like complaining that you pay more taxes, despite earning more. 
Yeah... that's the point. 

Another point people keep saying, how the number of ships isn't convenient for them, because they play 1 more TIE defender than it is present in the box, and because of this, they NEED to buy a whole new conversion kit. I'm pretty sure some people are willing to trade. And I am also sure, you don't know if it is even possible to run 3 defenders anymore. (or 5 X-wings, or whatever... we have no point costs, we don't know anything about lists). Is it unreasonably high cost to buy a full second conversion kit, just because you have 3-4 types of ships you can't use the maximum possible amount of? 
No. It is unreasonable to buy a full second conversion kit. 

Is it cheap? No, not really. 
But it was made by months of hard work, redesign and obviously listening to our complaints. This was an expensive project from FFG. It shouldn't come free. I don't expect it to. 



I feel that if you look at the problem rationally, you can see that most complaints don't really hold merit. Whining about it feels entitled. Spamming about it feels tired. 



 

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And some people just need to vent for a little bit before they accept it. 

I know I am even more pissed off by the blowback I got from my local facebook group when I vented a bit about needing multiple conversion kits. 

That said, starting multiple threads is not a particular good way to vent. 

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Just now, Commander Kaine said:

Percentage wise, most people are getting out of this conversion kit way better than it could be expected. If you think that you have a collection way bigger than what most people have, and that percentage cost is still high, well, don't be mad for people not feeling for you. That's like complaining that you pay more taxes, despite earning more. 
Yeah... that's the point. 

Another point people keep saying, how the number of ships isn't convenient for them, because they play 1 more TIE defender than it is present in the box, and because of this, they NEED to buy a whole new conversion kit. I'm pretty sure some people are willing to trade. And I am also sure, you don't know if it is even possible to run 3 defenders anymore. (or 5 X-wings, or whatever... we have no point costs, we don't know anything about lists). Is it unreasonably high cost to buy a full second conversion kit, just because you have 3-4 types of ships you can't use the maximum possible amount of? 
No. It is unreasonable to buy a full second conversion kit. 

Is it cheap? No, not really. 
But it was made by months of hard work, redesign and obviously listening to our complaints. This was an expensive project from FFG. It shouldn't come free. I don't expect it to. 



I feel that if you look at the problem rationally, you can see that most complaints don't really hold merit. Whining about it feels entitled. Spamming about it feels tired. 



 

Many games are made with months of hard work and redesign that provide MUCH better value for money than the 2.0 conversion. ****, the new BMG game was free! And Knight Models is a much smaller outfit than FFG.

The other thing that grinds my gears is the "Oh you can't even use six X Wings in a game". Well you know what? I can. There's no rule that games have to be 100 (or 200 now) points. That's just how people play in tournaments. 

I would EXPECT to upgrade my entire collection, all factions, for no more than around ~$100. That is what I could consider a reasonable cost, and edition changes for other games have borne this out. I can convert all my historical figures for use in Swordpoint by buying the core rulebook for $30 and then an era book for $20. I can convert hundreds of models in multiple factions for a single $50 purchase. Historically, even the infamous GW doesn't charge this much for a faction update in 40K.

It's not cheap. Whining is not entitled. It's not even whining. It's a legitimate complaint about a very expensive product/procedure which is necessary if people wish to keep participating in the game. When the playerbase at large dismisses these very valid complaints as nothing more than entitled whining, then it naturally gets people off-side and simply prompts more venting and anger and dissatisfaction. No one wants that.

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39 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I wish people would stop saying things like this as if they make it ok.

Yes, buying a Ferrari is cheaper than a Bugatti Veyron. Guess what? That doesn't make the Ferrari any cheaper, or make it any more affordable.

No, FFG doesn't owe us anything. Nor do we owe them anything. We're allowed to think the price of a product is unreasonable.

Sure, we can keep playing 1.0 but we don't want to for a range of reasons.

I would rather they FINISH the game and stop releasing new mechanics with every wave. Hopefully that is the case in 2.0 but time will tell.

Like I've said on various threads, I don't want FFG to cater to me personally or make the transition any cheaper. I'm happy to shop around, proxy, and use third party parts where available to both enhance my playing experience and make it more affordable. What I would LIKE though is some acknowledgement from the wider X Wing community that the cost of upgrading to 2.0 hurts for a lot of people, and in some cases is unreasonably high. Repeated mantras of "Well, at least FFG isn't setting your house on fire! It could be worse" help no one. We're a community and we should be pulling together rather than telling people they're stupid for not being able to comfortably afford the 2.0 conversion, or they're wrong for not thinking it's a great bargain. If there was just a touch of "Yeah man, it's gonna be pretty expensive. That's less than ideal. Hopefully you can work something out" then I think we'd all feel a lot better about things.

So first of all, the difference between repurchasing everything and getting  the conversion kit is more like the difference between a Ferrari and a used 1990  Honda Accord. So it's actually pretty cheap.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm allowed to say your opinion doesn't make sense and that there's no way for FFG to actually reasonably satisfy you. If you actually want the game to keep existing, FFG needs to actually make money, and as is they're probably just about scraping even on the conversion kits. 

When you say you want the game finished, you mean you want the game dead. I don't. To me, it sounds like you and others like you want the game to die so that you don't have to spend any more money. Not wanting to spend money to keep up with the game is reasonable. It's expensive. But you could just as easily stop buying stuff, but to me, it seems like you don't want anyone else to have fun while you're saving your money. That seems mean. If you don't want in, you don't have to buy anything. Just keep playing 1.0 with what you already own. I'm not going to stifle my own fun because you don't want to buy a game. You're not required to buy anything. 

And you chose how much money you wanted to spend. You can easily just pick a faction, not fly swarms, and spend $90 (core+conversion) to be fully caught up. If you choose to spend 300+ dollars, that also means that you chose to spend thousands on the game in the first place. 

You're not required to play all the ships in all the factions any more than you're required to buy a game that you don't want to. 

I'm just not understanding what you want. The options are

X-Wing 2.0 with conversions (what we have) 

X-Wing 2.0 with no backwards compatibility, repurchasing everything  

X-Wing 2.0 with FFG magically giving everything out  for free, FFG goes bankrupt (or just cans X-Wing entirely because they're losing money) 

X-Wing stays 1.0, keeps losing fans, dies

X-Wing 1.0 incorporates massive FAQs, rotation, and banlists. 

As is, what we have is the cheapest possible option that allows us to still actually play X-Wing.

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15 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

FG magically giving everything out  for free, FFG goes bankrupt (or just cans X-Wing entirely because they're losing money) 

I refuse to believe that FFG would be unable to offer the upgrade kits at a heavily discounted price without going bankrupt. Other game companies manage to release new editions without charging like a wounded bull, I think FFG could do it as well. But they've instead worked out the maximum cost the market will bear and put it on the sticker.

I don't want the game dead. I also don't want the game to be crushed under it's own weight by the constant addition of new mechanics and new exceptions to the core rules. This is how we wound up with the need for 2.0 in the first place.

Also, plenty of games that are OOP are still being played.

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Just now, MacchuWA said:

But what if they actually are stupid and/or wrong?

It's hard for someone to be wrong about their own feelings. If someone feels like this is painfully expensive or not good value, then pointing out comparisons or explaining why they're wrong isn't going to trigger some kind of epiphany.

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2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Yeah, you're making me more than a little sad. I always have had a great deal of respect for you as one of the few people on these forums who is completely committed to casual play.

I would have thought you would be able to see that 

-the investment in converting 2.0 is drastically less than having to repurchase everything, no matter how inconvenient the specific ship distribution is compared to your collection

-FFG doesn't owe us anything, and could have easily not made conversion kits a thing at all. It's nice they're being offered at all, and many people such as myself would have been ok actually repurchasing everything in order to get a better game

-2.0 is not required in casual play anyway. Download the app if you'd like and then proxy cards/borrow cardboard, or just keep flying 1.0

-it was either 2.0 or bust. Would you rather X-Wing just died and there was nobody to play with, or that you had to pay about a 5-10% property tax to keep playing?

Sorry for the semi-rant, but I really respect you as a bastion of our community and I'd like to steer you off of this self-destructive course if possible. 

you realise that you are the one being negative here?  If someone doesnt like the way FFG is handling this, then that is okay.  trying to silence them is what is not okay

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6 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

It's hard for someone to be wrong about their own feelings. If someone feels like this is painfully expensive or not good value, then pointing out comparisons or explaining why they're wrong isn't going to trigger some kind of epiphany.

It's a semantic point. People can, and frequently do, feel upset on the basis of incorrect understanding or unreasonable expectations; I'm sure we can all point to examples from the political discourses of our various countries.

In this case, the people complaining about the cost of the upgrade are labouring under false assumptions or misguided comparisons. X Wing had reached a point competitively where it needed major surgery, which required the devs to build and test a whole new game system, as well as the upgrades and pilots for dozens of existing ships. That time and effort cost money which has to be recouped. The only other options were do nothing (i.e. incur no new costs, requiring no new revenue), and watch the game spiral further and further out of control, or keep releasing new fix packs, which players would have bought at an eventually comparable cost to the conversion kits.

You can be upset. But that doesnt mean you're not demonstrably wrong.

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3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Bad joke redacted

:lol:Sorry, I once misposted an X-wing thread in Armada and it kept getting bumped as the entire board got to laugh over my idiocy.

It did finally get dropped past the first page eventually. So don't fret too much, we will eventually forget about it an move on.;)

just not right now:D

Edited by Marinealver

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1 hour ago, Chucknuckle said:

What I would LIKE though is some acknowledgement from the wider X Wing community that the cost of upgrading to 2.0 hurts for a lot of people,

Ok. Actually read a few of these threads. LOTS of people have been acknowledging that. 

Quote

 and in some cases is unreasonably high. 

Quote

I refuse to believe that FFG would be unable to offer the upgrade kits at a heavily discounted price without going bankrupt.

Without going bankrupt, yeah probably. Without losing a bunch of money, nope. Those conversion kits are pretty much crammed with content that it has undoubtedly taken years to develop. Could they have sold them at a loss and not gone out of business? Probably, but I doubt anyone thinks they should be loosing money on this and it is pretty clear that these kits are priced as low as they felt they could make them. 

 

31 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Other game companies manage to release new editions without....

This is a function of the release model of the game. As far as I can think, no other game has expanded in this form, with upgrade cards and the like. With an expansion model like that, any major update was going to look like this. Now, they could have changed the release model, went with something more like the army books of more traditional wargames. Or they could have gotten rid of upgrade cards entirely. But those options, or any other like that would make the game not x-wing anymore and they’d face way more backlash than they are getting now. 

The whole thing is a result of x-wings success. The “rules on card” model would have worked great for a tiny beer and pretzels game like x-wing was originally conceived as. But it was a runaway success and so they are stuck with a game with a form that makes it very difficult to update given its size.

They’re doing their best, and from the amount of positive reactions compared to negative, that seems to be pretty good. That’s what the rest of us would “LIKE to see acknowledged” from the half dozen of you guys who AREN'T happy about the announcement. 

 

 

 

 

(Wow, that was a lot longer than I was expecting)

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I can't agree they're doing their best. I would have liked to at least see the content split into different packs so consumers could have more control of what they buy. Small ships+pilots in one pack, large+medium ships+pilots in another pack, upgrades in a third.

Each pack could have been priced at say, $20, and then as a player I could have bought one large+med pack, one upgrade pack, and two small base packs. Sure, it still comes out at $80 (better than $100 but still not great) but now I've paid for content I want and will use, and haven't purchased lots of duplicates I won't use. This would have cost them next to nothing in terms of R&D or shipping, and while it would have increased shelf space it's only a temporary problem since the transition period will have a boom when 2.0 hits the street but will quickly die off. Sure, they would have had to ship 3x as many units, but each unit would have been proportionately smaller and lighter, and they would have had to design three boxes instead of one, but I imagine the designs could have been recycled and that all things considered, the cost of designing the box was probably not a high percentage of the overall development costs.

Anyway, I'm just spitballing. Other games give away new cards and content for free, accepting that a temporary loss will be offset by increasing customer loyalty and increasing the fanbase. I honestly think FFG could have done the same. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the debt collectors are already knocking on their door, but I doubt it. And to be clear, I'm not saying I expect the new content for free, I'm just saying they probably could have afforded to do it that way, even if it was only with PDF 'cards', so pricing the kits at $50 each isn't FFG being overly generous.

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Splitting off into 3 upgrade kits like that doesn’t just increase shelf space, it increases warehousing, packaging, shipping, logistics, makes the tracking software more complicated, increases manufacturing costs because you have to create additional supply chains for the extra packaging, meaning those kits would probably have been more like $25-$30 each, and probably couldn’t have included as much. 

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