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Marinealver

How much does it really cost to convert 1st edition; actual arithmetic, not just my collection (and crying about how many ships I have)

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2 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

My understanding is that once the conversion kits are out and the new core set is out, everything released from that point will new content and when they say new content, they don't mean new ships... For example they may release a new B-Wing and that will be a 2.0 B-Wing that will have new pilots and upgrades not part of any conversion which you will have to purchase if you want to make use of.  

They will reprint all the ships again, but their won't be any additional conversion kits for them, you will have to buy the ships.  This whole "converting" is just a paper conversion of the existing material.  When they make new B-Wings, A-Wings, etc... they will create new content for them that you will have to buy (the model) to get.

That is my understanding of how this will play out, I could be wrong but to me as a business model for them to re-release 14 waves of ships which not a single X-Wing player has any reason at all to buy after buying the conversion kit would be totally insane.  I mean literally I have no reason to buy a single 2nd edition ship for the next 2-3 years as they get these waves out if that is how they are doing it.  But I don't believe that for a second, I expect if you want to play 2.0, conversion or not your going to end up having to rebuy everything anyway.  

Couple of things here. We both agree that the 2.0 versions of ships not in Wave 1 will contain material not in the conversion kit. From what I have heard so far the conversion kits will primarily include Wave 1 cards, with a few here and there from other future waves. Newer content will come in the 2.0 versions of old ships coming down the line in Waves 2-5, say (assuming 6 re-released ships per wave in sequence). You're right it's ridiculous to think that everything will be in the conversion kit, as it will mean no-one buys the revisited ships, it also effectively shows us all the content for 9 months (which apparently is there schedule to complete the conversion process).

Like Chucknuckle says, FFG folks on the twitch stream have stated that they are looking at a upgrade pathway so that when re-releases come out players do not need to buy the ships again - that means more conversion kits coming down the line.

I bring this up really only to highlight that the expense of the conversion kits are not the whole story when it comes to what you'll spend converting to the new game. A lot of people are applying a faulty logic of it being cheaper to buy the old sets and convert them with the kit versus buying the new expansions. There's a hidden cost in that equation.

Also, it's all new content really. The conversion kit will include pilots we have never seen before and revised versions of pilots that were in 1.0. There are few cards where there are no changes. It's not quite the paper conversion of existing material you describe. It's a reset.

 

Anyhow, the solution to my situation of the converted kits being very poor value is rather simple. I'm selling any ships so as to prevent any unconverted ships from the purchase of a single kit. So, I sold 2/4 X-wings and 2/4 Y-wings so that I won't need any more, and this also opens up the squad 'slots' to buy from the new core and expansions etc.

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16 hours ago, Marinealver said:

So lets go with a more accurate figure, Lets say converting an Empire only collection, Core set and at least 8 tie fighters so 2 conversion kits, and we want the new model/expansion packs. So, $40+2*$50+$20+$20=$200. So that is for a single faction. Of course 3 factions it is going to cost a whole lot more Might not be $600 unless you are getting 3 core sets. Still it is the steepest step in continuity. In the past unless you are getting 2 of every ship, $200 is a price not likely dropped on a single wave, even ones with 6 ships released.

For starters, $40+2*$50+$20+$20=$180, not $200.

 

then, I really think you can go ahead and remove the $40 for new blisters, it's artificially inflating the price. There's literally no reason to buy them if you already own enough ships to require two upgrade kits. If you're buying those on top of everything else, the cost of converting is on you and your need to have the new scuplt, not FFG. 

$140 sounds a lot better than the narrative some people are suggesting :)

Edited by Darth Rubi

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1 hour ago, Darth Rubi said:

For starters, $40+2*$50+$20+$20=$180, not $200.

 

then, I really think you can go ahead and remove the $40 for new blisters, it's artificially inflating the price. There's literally no reason to buy them if you already own enough ships to require two upgrade kits. If you're buying those on top of everything else, the cost of converting is on you and your need to have the new scuplt, not FFG. 

$140 sounds a lot better than the narrative some people are suggesting :)

Even worse for his argument, if you're only converting Empire, from what I've seen the tie fighter and advanced aren't even new sculpts.

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3 hours ago, DicesonFire said:

I saw GW's name tossed around here. "they are not that evil, ffg is worse?"
Oh yeah, go ahead.

have a small collection, of three factions.
See how much you need to spend just on books.

Um, sure. That’s $150 on codexes and $60 on a rulebook for $210.

which is $20 more than the guy who posted right under you, but you’re upgrading three full factions for up to five years with no additional puprchases required, while he’s only upgrading a single wave of a single faction. Come wave II and there’ll be pilots and upgrades he won’t have access to. And of course, if you were to convert a single faction like the poster directly under your comment, your cost would be only $110, no the $190 he is facing.

Edited by Chucknuckle

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2 hours ago, Darth Rubi said:

For starters, $40+2*$50+$20+$20=$180, not $200.

 

then, I really think you can go ahead and remove the $40 for new blisters, it's artificially inflating the price. There's literally no reason to buy them if you already own enough ships to require two upgrade kits. If you're buying those on top of everything else, the cost of converting is on you and your need to have the new scuplt, not FFG. 

$140 sounds a lot better than the narrative some people are suggesting :)

Maybe, again I am just assuming an Imperial Player would get the 2.0 expansions as well. But if you already have 8 TIE Fighters unless you can have more you are right, there is no need for additional models.

32 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Even worse for his argument, if you're only converting Empire, from what I've seen the tie fighter and advanced aren't even new sculpts.

Argument?:blink:

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24 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Argument?:blink:

Maybe "argument" is the wrong word, but your post with the numbers started off with "So lets go with a more accurate figure", then talking about conversion costs.  Buying wave 1 blisters is literally not part of the conversion cost.  You get nothing from those blisters that you need to convert old ships that isn't already in the kits, so it's adding $40-50 to the price of converting a faction that isn't actually part of converting it.  Buying new models either A) A pure  luxury because you want the updated sculpts, or B) Adding ships to your collection that you want more models for, but is not a conversion, its just buying new ships.  And as i said in mypost you quoted, the imperial ships aren't even new sculpts from what we've seen, so the only reason to buy them is if you want new models.

The max cost to convert a single ship to be fully playable in standard play is $140 for a core set and 2 conversion kits.  Max for all 3 factions to be fully playable in standard play (for a single person, or maybe 1 person per faction if your collection supports multiple players, potentially more if you aren't flying the same ships against each other) is $340 for 1 core set and 2 of each conversion kit.  *MOST* players, will not actually need to (and should not) buy 2 of every conversion kit.

Edited by VanderLegion

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For now I am thinking about just getting 1 Box, convert the old T-65 that are not covered to Z's and use the  left over Tie Fighters for my Rebells

36 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Um, sure. That’s $150 on codexes and $60 on a rulebook for $210.

which is $20 more than the guy who posted right under you, but you’re upgrading three full factions for up to five years with no additional puprchases required, while he’s only upgrading a single wave of a single faction. Come wave II and there’ll be pilots and upgrades he won’t have access to. And of course, if you were to convert a single faction like the poster directly under your comment, your cost would be only $110, no the $190 he is facing.

3 Factions converting from 7th to 8th cost 120 for Codex, 75 for the Index, 60 for the Rules and 35 for Chapter Approved = 290$

of course you can skip the Index and CA, but than you can also say that one can just buy 1 conversion kit and the core box as without those books you won't get a full conversion for your faction
and than you say you will need Wave2 for X-Wing but the same is for 40k as you won't be able to get a playable/competitive list without investing in new models either (no matter how large your collection is) and than we are not going to talk about that GW is changing the tournament meta the same as FFG (but for GW it can happen that you need a complete new army for 300 or more to be top tier and is useless 6 months later)

At the end, the minimum investment is cheaper for X-Wing (Core Box+Conversion Kit =90 VS Rules+Codex+CA=135) while if you go for a full conversion it depends on your collection and if you want to get everything you have playable (no matter if you do it) and you don't need to buy anything else unless you go competitive and than 40k will take much more money from you

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I have spent over $3000 on this game in models if I calculate replacement costs based off of FFG's website. 

I can get away with one conversion kit per faction (until we know what ends up being in the Resistance/FO kit) with very little extra tiles needed.

For rebels I'm short 3 A-Wings, 2 X-wings, and 1 E-Wing.

But I highly doubt that 6 X-Wings or 3 E-wings would be flyable in one list in 2.0. 3 A-Wings tho... that might be something I need. I'm sure I'll be able to get those extras easily enough. 

So for $190 to convert 90% of what I own and spent a very large chunk of change on... I'm really not upset at all. 

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On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 4:07 PM, Mrk1984 said:

I somewhat understand only 2 X-Wings in the kit when you think about needing the starter set and buying Saw's pack will give you 2 more dials (assuming none of Saw's and the starter are in the conversion kit). 

This ^^^  I currently own 3 T65's and don't see myself fielding more than that.  I'm buying Saw's and the new core set plus 1 rebel conversion kit, so in the end I'll have 4 playable T65's in both V1 and V2 and 5 total models.  I'm fine with that.  One of the models is going to have a new home on my desk at work. 

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Some people here are comparing the upgrade of X-Wing to the upgrade of Warhammer, but they are forgetting one major point.

X-Wing is actually fun to play.

 


...and you don't have to waste $$$ on paint.

...and you don't have to waste time painting.

?

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2 hours ago, Lifer4700 said:

Some people here are comparing the upgrade of X-Wing to the upgrade of Warhammer, but they are forgetting one major point.

X-Wing is actually fun to play.

 


...and you don't have to waste $$$ on paint.

...and you don't have to waste time painting.

?

It makes it easier to pick up the hobby and also easier to switch factions. (I like to compare switching factions between X-wing and 40k like switching players between Overwatch and DOTA). Still many people from 40k will argue that painting is part of the fun and there are some that don't even play the game they just have a collection and paint and sculpt and make impressive scenes. Of course you could say this attitude led to many of the problems 5th 6th and even 7th edition had. 

That being said I think FFG had found the perfect balance with their acrylic prepainted models. IT is already painted so you don't have to if you don't want to, yet the paint acts as an undercoat so you don't have to strip it in order to give it your own custom paint job.

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On 5/6/2018 at 7:07 PM, Mrk1984 said:

I somewhat understand only 2 X-Wings in the kit when you think about needing the starter set and buying Saw's pack will give you 2 more dials (assuming none of Saw's and the starter are in the conversion kit). 

But that still only give you 4 X's when you will be able to field 5.  If you ONLY buy 1 of each ship, your collection would still have 3 X's (Red Core, Expansion, Transport) and that is just to be sure you had every pilot.  I don't know anyone who has played for any reasonable amount of time who doesn't have at least 3 X's. So are we expected to buy the conversion kit, Saws, a Core then a 2nd ed. X-wing expansion to fly 5 while we have 1 or 2 1st ed. minis sitting by the wayside?

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On 5/8/2018 at 3:49 PM, Joe Censored said:

This ^^^  I currently own 3 T65's and don't see myself fielding more than that.  I'm buying Saw's and the new core set plus 1 rebel conversion kit, so in the end I'll have 4 playable T65's in both V1 and V2 and 5 total models.  I'm fine with that.  One of the models is going to have a new home on my desk at work. 

I got them to play, not as desk tchoskies.  5 X-wings seems like a lot of fun to fly to me.  If they just include 1 more instead of a second Ghost! then I would be OK with 1 of my first ed sitting unused (I got 2 Red Cores when the game was released along with 1 expansions and the Rebel transport) It is just the weirdest decision of the conversions. The game's namesake, the most recognizable ship, the ship they are revamping to bring back to the table, the ship everyone has at least 3 of.. they give the minimum conversions for?

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Right now its going to cost me about $150.

1 conversion box, 1 new core, 1 new x wing, 1 new y wing, and presumably 1 new Bwing, perhaps a new Awing.  I've kept my Falcon, yt2400, I'm hoping to trade my current Xwings, Y wings, Lemba, Jump Master, and assorted none rebel other ships for a ghost, and Sabine's Tie. Maybe Arc170. Ohh and that Wookie Gunship.

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53 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

But that still only give you 4 X's when you will be able to field 5.  If you ONLY buy 1 of each ship, your collection would still have 3 X's (Red Core, Expansion, Transport) and that is just to be sure you had every pilot.  I don't know anyone who has played for any reasonable amount of time who doesn't have at least 3 X's. So are we expected to buy the conversion kit, Saws, a Core then a 2nd ed. X-wing expansion to fly 5 while we have 1 or 2 1st ed. minis sitting by the wayside?

While I completely agree with you, there is no indication that we will be able to fly 5 in the second edition. With a generic R2 having 2 shield regens, I would be shocked if they allow 5 in standard play.

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1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

But that still only give you 4 X's when you will be able to field 5.  If you ONLY buy 1 of each ship, your collection would still have 3 X's (Red Core, Expansion, Transport) and that is just to be sure you had every pilot.  I don't know anyone who has played for any reasonable amount of time who doesn't have at least 3 X's. So are we expected to buy the conversion kit, Saws, a Core then a 2nd ed. X-wing expansion to fly 5 while we have 1 or 2 1st ed. minis sitting by the wayside?

 

23 minutes ago, Mrk1984 said:

While I completely agree with you, there is no indication that we will be able to fly 5 in the second edition. With a generic R2 having 2 shield regens, I would be shocked if they allow 5 in standard play.

Pretty srue the devs have said that you would only be able to fly 4 x-wings in 2e.  Makes some sense with the buffs it's gotten.

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You won't be able to field 5 with an R2, but 5 naked or with minimal upgrades.  And the improvements don't mean you can't field 5.  After all it is give the 20 point x-wings in the expansion that introduces the improves the X-wing.  I fully expect 5 X-wing squads in 2nd ed.

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On 5/6/2018 at 5:32 PM, Marinealver said:

So X-wing 2.0 is a little more expensive. Well to be fair any miniatures game is not cheap. But instead people taking a look at their dozens of ship models and figuring out how many conversion kits they have to buy to go 2.0 on everything. I am going to work the other way. Starting from scratch how much 1st edition do you need to use everything in the conversion kit. I am going to use rough figures and assume that you get Aces pack in addition to blister pack.

  • Small Blister (A-wing) $15
  • Large Blister (TIE Punisher) $20
  • 2 ship pack (Rebel Aces) $30
  • Most Wanted Expansion Pack (3 ship) $40
  • Large Ship Expansion (Punishing One) $30
  • Larger Ship Expansion (VT-49 Decimator) $40
  • Ghost Expansion Pack (Large ship and small ship) $50

This is what I price everything at. Again rough figures so if it is more expensive in Australia or the conversion to pounds is not exact, that is just minuscule nitpicking and you can go make another thread about how much X number of conversion kits is going to cost you and how much you already spent. I am going to assume players have 1 classic core set and pick up an Aces and/or most wanted pack before individual blisters, I am also not counting resistance/1st order as they are not out in 2nd edition yet as well as Saws Renegades because they have both 2nd and 1st. No epic ships have been counted as well. So using this model I got

  • Rebel Ships $730
  • Imperial Ships $555
  • Scum Ships $805
  • TOTAL $2010 note: subtracted 2 core sets to remove a small amount of redundancy

note: I count start with a classic core set for each even scum although there is no scum models. I don't cross over so the Y-wing from the most wanted is not computed for Rebel ships.

Again that is assuming you start from nothing and purchase each ships according to an optimized plan such as expansions. Again I didn't count huge ships because they are still in 1st edition and this is just to get the models. So totals adding the 2nd edition core set ($40) and faction conversion kit ($50) this is how much they cost.

  • Rebel Alliance Faction $820
  • Galactic Empire Faction $645
  • Scum & Villainy Faction $895
  • GRAND TOTAL $2280 note: subtracted the cost of two core sets to remove a small amount of redundancy.

I will admit comparing to my collection I will have some cardboard I will not be using (because I usually don't buy duplicates of every ship) and there will be some ships not covered by the conversion kits (because of huge ships and multiple core sets I had purchased in the past). But that is the cost of a conversion kit from scratched. However most of us already have the models or spent >$1000 not including huge ships so we won't be dropping >$2000 just to go to 2.0. For those that play all 3 (which I do) we are probably just going to go drop $190~$320 and call it good. Those that will go solo faction (or stick with a primary faction) will likely get core set and 2 conversion kits so around $140~$190 just on core 2 conversion packs and expansions.

So that is how much 2.0 is going to cost you. It could cost up to over $2,000 if you decided to set your collection on fire, or it could cost $200~$300 just to update and get a a few more models to your collection.

I get your math but you are essentially describing the most favorable cost scenario

If you had one of each 1.0 ship in the game, youre paying $260 to convert.  This is a core set and 3 faction conversions at $50 each, and 2 faction conversion sets at $30 each.  So in that case youre paying a little over 10%.

On the opposite end, a player might have purchased a FOA core set and 3 defenders, meaning that their conversion cost is $150 just to fly the defenders(core + 2 imp conversions) and they now have 2 ties that arent part of the faction anymore. In which case that player is paying $150 to convert $45, so over 300%

I'm not trying to say you are wrong, because you are not. Im just pointing out that people who are pissed that conversion will cost 50% or more of their initial investment are also correct in their math. 

Also the conversion kits dont even include all the materials to convert!  The 2.0 expansions will include new pilots for 1.0 ships you cant fly without purchase. Even if you own every pilot in 1.0, you wont own every 2.0 version of those same pilots unless they are in the initial kits. Its an incredibly poor execution of the 2.0 ideal of fixing the game

 

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53 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

I get your math but you are essentially describing the most favorable cost scenario

If you had one of each 1.0 ship in the game, youre paying $260 to convert.  This is a core set and 3 faction conversions at $50 each, and 2 faction conversion sets at $30 each.  So in that case youre paying a little over 10%.

On the opposite end, a player might have purchased a FOA core set and 3 defenders, meaning that their conversion cost is $150 just to fly the defenders(core + 2 imp conversions) and they now have 2 ties that arent part of the faction anymore. In which case that player is paying $150 to convert $45, so over 300%

I'm not trying to say you are wrong, because you are not. Im just pointing out that people who are pissed that conversion will cost 50% or more of their initial investment are also correct in their math. 

Also the conversion kits dont even include all the materials to convert!  The 2.0 expansions will include new pilots for 1.0 ships you cant fly without purchase. Even if you own every pilot in 1.0, you wont own every 2.0 version of those same pilots unless they are in the initial kits. Its an incredibly poor execution of the 2.0 ideal of fixing the game

 

I'm sorry but the scenario you have described is absurd. It's ridiculous to think that someone would buy an entire conversion kit for only two ships. It's even more ridiculous to think that someone would then buy a SECOND entire conversion kit for ONE ship. That person could save $50 by simply buying three new 2.0 Defenders when they come out. Maybe if someone was absolutely made of money and didn't care about throwing it away, or they wanted the conversion kits for some other reason (the unused pilots make great wallpaper?), but no one in their right mind would try to use the kits in the way you described.

I get where you're coming from, that the conversion math works out differently for different people. But when the conversion math sucks for you, you can always either a) rely on the secondary market, b) not convert and buy 2.0 components instead of conversion kits, or c) not convert and proxy/stop playing/stick with 1.0.

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2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

I get your math but you are essentially describing the most favorable cost scenario

If you had one of each 1.0 ship in the game, youre paying $260 to convert.  This is a core set and 3 faction conversions at $50 each, and 2 faction conversion sets at $30 each.  So in that case youre paying a little over 10%.

On the opposite end, a player might have purchased a FOA core set and 3 defenders, meaning that their conversion cost is $150 just to fly the defenders(core + 2 imp conversions) and they now have 2 ties that arent part of the faction anymore. In which case that player is paying $150 to convert $45, so over 300%

I'm not trying to say you are wrong, because you are not. Im just pointing out that people who are pissed that conversion will cost 50% or more of their initial investment are also correct in their math. 

Also the conversion kits dont even include all the materials to convert!  The 2.0 expansions will include new pilots for 1.0 ships you cant fly without purchase. Even if you own every pilot in 1.0, you wont own every 2.0 version of those same pilots unless they are in the initial kits. Its an incredibly poor execution of the 2.0 ideal of fixing the game

 

Or, you could wait and get the wave converters that FFG has mentioned. No need to get the big converters for two ships.

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If anyone is interested in the Aussie equivalent (RRP is higher due to shipping and our many sales taxes) see below;

Small expack =$25 AUD

Medium expack = $35 AUD

Aces expack = $40 AUD

Large expack = $50 AUD

Ghost/HoTR = $80 AUD

Cost to buy the contents of the rebel conversion kit in 1.0 expacks = $1200 AUD (This includes a core set, aces pack, and most wanted for 2 of the Z-95s).

Cost to convert the contents to 2.0 = $145 AUD ($80 core set + $65 conversion kit).

 

As the other factions cost slightly less to buy, we can roughly extrapolate a full collections cost to around $3500 AUD.

The cost to convert all factions 'from scratch' = $275 ($80 core set + 3x$65 conversion kit).

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2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Or, you could wait and get the wave converters that FFG has mentioned. No need to get the big converters for two ships.

I will be absolutely shocked if the wave converters are free.

Also without knowing the cost or whats included, or for that matter if these things will even exist for every ship(or at all), its utterly premature to factor them in now.

it sounds like youre trying reslly hard to ignore the point

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