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MandalorianMoose

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50 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Adar Tallon +Yavaris (add in Rieekan for insurance) turns one (ace, even more potent) squadron into effectively 3 squadrons (in terms of attack not hull).  For the cost of 15 pts (and not moving etc.) you turn one squadron into two more squadrons.  Only z-95's can fit in under that point cap, and wedge(for example) x3 is stronger than wedge +2 z-95's.  The empire doesn't have anything come even close to replicating this formula.  This is such a strong mechanic, and some people still don't understand why Yavaris and Gallant Haven were nerfed...

Nope, still don't logically see why it was needed. Plenty of ways to counter it exist. Especially for Imperials. Unfortunately they require the use of squadrons, especially speed 4-5 Squadrons. 

That's why I find this thread so funny. If only Relay had been nerfed, most builds would have had built in counters for Yavaris + GH Aces, and something else would have probably won't worlds. Instead, thanks to the Nerf, nobody bothered to build in those counters, and look what happened! Hilarious!

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Yavaris // Fighter Coordination Team (until the FAQ) / Flight Commander

2x GRs, BCC and Toryn Farr among them. Rieekan somewhere.

3x BWings, Norra Wexley, Wedge, Shara, Jan.

Season for taste with a heavy bit for second and a few more activations (Extra GRs until the FAQ, then hammerheads). Contested Outpost, Station Assault, Solar Corona.

 

How are you supposed to approach this and kill anything before Yavaris activates last, moves, and rips your face off once the B-Wings are in position? As it is, even with the Yavaris' nerf, Flight Commander means your fighter group already needs to be in the right position (just ouside a post speed-1 movement for activation), and can still be activated. If you have fighters of your own, throw Shara Bay in front of them to stop that counter. Then crush the first capital ship that comes into range.

 

This was Mythics' list for the longest time and he's clobbered the SF bay area with it. The only way to get around this is to take an even deeper bid and force it to go first. Not really easy when Rebel ships on average are cheaper... just drop another Hammerhead to regain the bid advantage next game.

Edited by Norsehound

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1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

Yavaris // Fighter Coordination Team (until the FAQ) / Flight Commander

2x GRs, BCC and Toryn Farr among them. Rieekan somewhere.

3x BWings, Norra Wexley, Wedge, Shara, Jan.

Season for taste with a heavy bit for second and a few more activations (GRs until the FAQ, then hammerheads). Contested Outpost, Station Assault, Solar Corona.

 

How are you supposed to approach this and kill anything before Yavaris activates last, moves, and rips your face off once the B-Wings are in position? As it is, even with the Yavaris' nerf, Flight Commander means your fighter group already needs to be in the right position (just ouside a post speed-1 movement for activation), and can still be activated. If you have fighters of your own, throw Shara Bay in front of them to stop that counter. Then crush the first capital ship that comes into range.

 

This was Mythics' list for the longest time and he's clobbered the SF bay area with it. The only way to get around this is to take an even deeper bid and force it to go first. Not really easy when Rebel ships on average are cheaper... just drop another Hammerhead to regain the bid advantage next game.

Post faq, you don’t feel at risk of being tabled with a grand fleet of Yavaris and 2 hammerheads?

Edited by Drasnighta

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23 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Post faq, you don’t feel at risk of being tabled with a grand fleet of Yavaris and 2 hammerheads?

I don't think I conveyed that this list is primarily defensive MSUs... the "core" of it is is Yavaris and an almost max fighter configuration with a few essential support ships as I've outlined above (mostly BCC- Toryn can be on any ship... sometimes it can be Gallant Heaven or a Pelta, but to keep it cheap let's assume an easy 18 point flotilla). The core focus of this list is to smack the first thing that comes into long range with this swarm of fighters and annihilate, or set on fire, the first thing that comes into range.

Whatever the extra ships are (TR-90s, or Hammerheads, or speed 0 GR-75s hiding behind Yavaris) are really there for activation padding, finisher support, or movement blockers to allow the fighters freedom of engaging one target at a time.

The core mechanism of this list, I'm sure I've pointed out before, is:

  • 2x Re-rolls for B-Wings to bowl for 2-3 damage with each attack naturally (Was worse when BCCs stacked)
  • Norra's +1 to shields is not affected by Brace, so a 3-hit is still 2 damage on a brace, with the -1 shield on top of it (3 or 4, depending on you using brace)
  • Yavaris allows 3 chosen fighters to strike twice, and ships usually rely on 1 or 2 essential tokens for their survival (Brace or Redirect). Hitting 1 target, you're blowing the braces or redirects to preserve the ship.
  • Shara Bay locks down opposing fighters before they can hit the B-Wing line. Wedge intercepts any attacks that would target the B-Wings (and hits back even harder once he's died). Jan Ors allows the B-Wings to ignore interfering fighters.

The only thing the FAQ really changed about this setup is that Yavaris' fighters have a slight reduction in reach because they have to be in position already before they can stamp out targets. They also cannot swing into side arcs to bomb targets... but when you're already landing potentially 18 damage on a facing arc in 6 separate chunks, I don't think you'll really want positioning when you can make that ship dead faster. The FAQ in flotilla limiting isn't a problem either... as long as you have one BCC you still have that re-roll, and you can stick Toyrn on it just as well.

Two other points to mention:

+Defensive tokens are not idealized for defending against multiple small attacks. When you're dealing with 6x attacks of 3-4 damage each, it'll eat up your primary defense token very rapidly (Brace or Redirect). Ships like Nebulons, with two primary defense tokens, will last a little longer... but not many ships have them.

+Yavaris Escort Frigates are half the cost of a MC80 command cruiser with an expanded hangar bay. While Quasars under-cut them in cost, there are other issues preventing them from being as good as Yavaris (Imperial fighters are not as multirole/cheap/tanky/effective as Rebel craft, they are allergic to getting shot at, etx).

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7 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I don't think I conveyed that this list is primarily defensive MSUs... the "core" of it is is Yavaris and an almost max fighter configuration with a few essential support ships as I've outlined above (mostly BCC- Toryn can be on any ship... sometimes it can be Gallant Heaven or a Pelta, but to keep it cheap let's assume an easy 18 point flotilla). The core focus of this list is to smack the first thing that comes into long range with this swarm of fighters and annihilate, or set on fire, the first thing that comes into range.

Whatever the extra ships are (TR-90s, or Hammerheads, or speed 0 GR-75s hiding behind Yavaris) are really there for activation padding, finisher support, or movement blockers to allow the fighters freedom of engaging one target at a time.

The core mechanism of this list, I'm sure I've pointed out before, is:

  • 2x Re-rolls for B-Wings to bowl for 2-3 damage with each attack naturally (Was worse when BCCs stacked)
  • Norra's +1 to shields is not affected by Brace, so a 3-hit is still 2 damage on a brace, with the -1 shield on top of it (3 or 4, depending on you using brace)
  • Yavaris allows 3 chosen fighters to strike twice, and ships usually rely on 1 or 2 essential tokens for their survival (Brace or Redirect). Hitting 1 target, you're blowing the braces or redirects to preserve the ship.
  • Shara Bay locks down opposing fighters before they can hit the B-Wing line. Wedge intercepts any attacks that would target the B-Wings (and hits back even harder once he's died). Jan Ors allows the B-Wings to ignore interfering fighters.

The only thing the FAQ really changed about this setup is that Yavaris' fighters have a slight reduction in reach because they have to be in position already before they can stamp out targets. They also cannot swing into side arcs to bomb targets... but when you're already landing potentially 18 damage on a facing arc in 6 separate chunks, I don't think you'll really want positioning when you can make that ship dead faster. The FAQ in flotilla limiting isn't a problem either... as long as you have one BCC you still have that re-roll, and you can stick Toyrn on it just as well.

Two other points to mention:

+Defensive tokens are not idealized for defending against multiple small attacks. When you're dealing with 6x attacks of 3-4 damage each, it'll eat up your primary defense token very rapidly (Brace or Redirect). Ships like Nebulons, with two primary defense tokens, will last a little longer... but not many ships have them.

+Yavaris Escort Frigates are half the cost of a MC80 command cruiser with an expanded hangar bay. While Quasars under-cut them in cost, there are other issues preventing them from being as good as Yavaris (Imperial fighters are not as multirole/cheap/tanky/effective as Rebel craft, they are allergic to getting shot at, etx).

Wait, Yavaris is good? When did this happen?? Next you'll be telling me of the strength of this Demolisher title.

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30 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Wait, Yavaris is good? When did this happen?? Next you'll be telling me of the strength of this Demolisher title.

I'm sorry, I thought illustrating how all parts of this mechanic worked would be informative for the discussion in trying to suggest an effective counter or fix that got to the heart of the matter. I thought it would be more helpful than just hooting "Yavaris is bad because fighters."

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This is why I run my demo with flechette torps and Kallus. Reeikan, Toryn Far, Adlar Talon, Yavaris are all useless on activated squads. Yeah it doesn't work on generics, but outside massed YTs (which don't really pare well with Yavaris and toys anyway) it's the uniques that are really dangerous.

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15 minutes ago, Kristjan said:

This is why I run my demo with flechette torps and Kallus. Reeikan, Toryn Far, Adlar Talon, Yavaris are all useless on activated squads. Yeah it doesn't work on generics, but outside massed YTs (which don't really pare well with Yavaris and toys anyway) it's the uniques that are really dangerous.

What's interesting too is that Nathan Codas list has enough generics that he could have pushed through. The flak wagon still obviously would have been very effective, but it's neat to think about how balanced his list is. 

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3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

 

I felt a lot was written, but my actual question wasn’t answered...

 

Usually that list has a cheap corvette as an admiral caddie. It's really tough to chase that thing down after dealing with everything else.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Weather said:

What's interesting too is that Nathan Codas list has enough generics that he could have pushed through. The flak wagon still obviously would have been very effective, but it's neat to think about how balanced his list is. 

Well, you could try taking it on without the flak demo. Locking down most of the uniques should let your squads go to town on everything else. Plus 2 blue flak twice per activation really adds up on generics too. I've never played against Nathan's list, but I know attacking Yik's Rieekan ball is basically suicide without that flechette Demo.

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9 minutes ago, Kristjan said:

This is why I run my demo with flechette torps and Kallus. Reeikan, Toryn Far, Adlar Talon, Yavaris are all useless on activated squads. Yeah it doesn't work on generics, but outside massed YTs (which don't really pare well with Yavaris and toys anyway) it's the uniques that are really dangerous.

I saw the list you ran in Day 1 of worlds. Nicely done to get a VSD put together like that! I was wondering what your objectives were if you were inclined to share, and what your strategy would be for dealing with twin Cymoons/ISDs or ARQ battery lists. I figured you went into Worlds prepared to ambush Raddus drops.

Activating with Flichettes is a nice surefire way to mute the problem, but I don't feel you can get it reliably enough to be a suitable counter. You're hoping to get a critical roll on a single Kallus die, and every squadron you miss making this happens means the problem is still there. Raiders are the most effective way to get the dice you need along with the chance of making it happen, but I'd argue raiders are the most fragile platform in the game when they put themselves in place to fight.

And even if you stun all of the uniques in the list I mentioned above, the B-Wings are still there for thier 6x activations. What those B-Wings gain is all from passive abilities supplied by Norra, Jan, and Wedge. Only preventing SHara from locking down any squadron challengers would make any progress to cracking that fighter ball.

Quote

Post faq, you don’t feel at risk of being tabled with a grand fleet of Yavaris and 2 hammerheads?

You mean 154 points of an Escort Nebulon with the Yavaris title, 2 bare hammerheads, and Dodonna? no. Why would I be worried when Yavaris has no fighters?

 

Quote

Usually that list has a cheap corvette as an admiral caddie. It's really tough to chase that thing down after dealing with everything else.

 

Yep. When the FAQ ruled Flotillas can't have commanders, that flotilla just became a Hammerhead. Still cheaper than anything the Empire has on the table that can carry a commander.

Quote

 

But everything else is... a blob and another vette? 

 

 

Pretty much, with that list. Aside from the core of Yavaris / Fighters / GR with upgrades, the list is pretty open depending on how much you want of the following: Massive batteries, activation advantages, bid strength. The whole purpose of this nightmare list is to be second player and camp on the objectives- relying on Solar Corona only as a worse version of Superior Positions- choosing this one means the game becomes a draw, unless you're stupid enough to challenge the list and lose something to lose the match.

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3 minutes ago, Kristjan said:

Well, you could try taking it on without the flak demo. Locking down most of the uniques should let your squads go to town on everything else. Plus 2 blue flak twice per activation really adds up on generics too. I've never played against Nathan's list, but I know attacking Yik's Rieekan ball is basically suicide without that flechette Demo.

Oh definitely, let me be clear I think it would have ended up an even split. But he can bear it better than Yik because of how many generics he has. Plus because of the MC80 he actually can bully the board pretty nicely. Anyway I'm running a list inspired by yours tonight, so we'll see how we go. 

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If you throw in a Jumpmaster to ignore Shara, can't you just engage the squadron ball from two sides?  If they're really saving Yavaris for last they have to spend an activation moving Jan into place, and if you did your job right they still have at least one other squadron stuck shooting at your screen... Am I missing some aspect that makes it invincible here?

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7 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

100%, absolutely. No doubt at all anymore.

Its not just the forums, but they definitely play a important part.

People on here whined and bitched for ages for a flotilla nerf - we got one. Despite some admittedly small opposition that got shouted down.

People complained and complained about yavaris and how flotillas are still a problem. FFG listened. 

And thats just 2 examples!

Theres proof if you look for it. Though how much of our complaints they listen to is in question, theyre listening.

I don't buy this. How many "complaints" did you see about Avenger before it got FAQ'd? I remember none. I think folks are trying to establish effect before cause here. FFG has play testers. They may skim the forums, but I seriously doubt they use it as a tool to affect game change. If this was the case, we would have had direct communications from a member of their staff to "quell" the masses WAY before the nerfs. We have been complaining about transparency SINCE THE BEGINNING, and they have changed nothing on that path. 

We talked about Relay and Rieekan, and they both happened to get nerfed. We didn't CAUSE anything.....it was coincidental, IMHO. 

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1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

If you throw in a Jumpmaster to ignore Shara, can't you just engage the squadron ball from two sides?  If they're really saving Yavaris for last they have to spend an activation moving Jan into place, and if you did your job right they still have at least one other squadron stuck shooting at your screen... Am I missing some aspect that makes it invincible here?

Perhaps, but Shara isn't a core essential to the list either- she's there to isolate part of the fighter ball and be where your Intel isn't, to lock down whatever fighters she can, and be another roadblock to you using squadrons to fight other squadrons. You can take Tycho as an alternate or beef up the battle line with a YT-1300 to use with Wedge.

Plus, a player with this list will use her intelligently. She's speed 5, but she doesn't have to be projected outward to stop a fighter swarm on her own. She can hang behind the battle line, jump in to pin a flank of the list, and then Jan can move in to free up whatever was under attack. Basically, she and Wedge work together in the battle line to force an attacking fighter component to focus on them- meaning eating counter 3 or a zombie escort that hits harder.

Since Yavaris can pick which ships it attacks twice with, it doesn't have to be the B-Wings either. Wedge will open up with 6 dice on two targets, and the B-Wings can clean it up during the fighter phase, or during the next two activations. There's also a GR-75 holding BCCs in this list that can activate and position two fighters (Wedge, Shara, or Jan) into position to get the B-Wings set up. If you wanted to spend the points, you can put Adar Tallon on it to let one of your positioned squadrons attack again (And punt Toryn to another ship).

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1 hour ago, moodswing5537 said:

I don't buy this. How many "complaints" did you see about Avenger before it got FAQ'd? I noremember none. I think folks are trying to establish effect before cause here. FFG has play testers. They may skim the forums, but I seriously doubt they use it as a tool to affect game change. If this was the case, we would have had direct communications from a member of their staff to "quell" the masses WAY before the nerfs. We have been complaining about transparency SINCE THE BEGINNING, and they have changed nothing on that path. 

We talked about Relay and Rieekan, and they both happened to get nerfed. We didn't CAUSE anything.....it was coincidental, IMHO. 

Oh no! One thing wasnt complained about,i must be wrong!

 

I think avenger was nerfed because with BT it was very powerful and started to be seen in a lot of lists, thats my opinion from what i observed, especially in the fleetbuilding section.

Maybe it was coincidental, but thats a lot of coincidence occurring then. If they truly cared about game balance then they would use all tools at their disposal to analyse the game.

Forum? Check

Organised events? Check

Facebook/twitter/etc? Check

Emails? Check

It definitely isnt just the forums doing all the work to advertise issues, but to deny that FFG doesnt care about the forum in the slightest? I dont buy that.

More evidence? That time the forum went crazy due to lack of news and articles, we complained and complained and asked for even fan made content and then suddenly news was given. We got articles for a time and became content, then FFG stopped giving us articles.

They havent stopped supporting armada yet, so they must still care about us......... even if its just for the money

 

(Hahahaha i saw your angry avatar and that you quoted me, "like what i do?" Hahaha)

Edited by DrakonLord

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25 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Perhaps, but Shara isn't a core essential to the list either- she's there to isolate part of the fighter ball and be where your Intel isn't, to lock down whatever fighters she can, and be another roadblock to you using squadrons to fight other squadrons. You can take Tycho as an alternate or beef up the battle line with a YT-1300 to use with Wedge.

Plus, a player with this list will use her intelligently. She's speed 5, but she doesn't have to be projected outward to stop a fighter swarm on her own. She can hang behind the battle line, jump in to pin a flank of the list, and then Jan can move in to free up whatever was under attack. Basically, she and Wedge work together in the battle line to force an attacking fighter component to focus on them- meaning eating counter 3 or a zombie escort that hits harder.

Since Yavaris can pick which ships it attacks twice with, it doesn't have to be the B-Wings either. Wedge will open up with 6 dice on two targets, and the B-Wings can clean it up during the fighter phase, or during the next two activations. There's also a GR-75 holding BCCs in this list that can activate and position two fighters (Wedge, Shara, or Jan) into position to get the B-Wings set up. If you wanted to spend the points, you can put Adar Tallon on it to let one of your positioned squadrons attack again (And punt Toryn to another ship).

Shara is speed 5.  Your screen (let's say five TIEs and a Jumpmaster, but three TIEs are dead now) is speed 4.  Wedge is speed 3.  B-wings are speed 2.  If you're getting your distance and timing right, Shara, and only Shara, should be able to force engagement.  (If you're worried about FCT for Wedge, bring... maybe Vector?)  Therefore, your Jumpmaster only needs to be one place.  After it's there, your TIEs can now move to both sides of the three B-wings.  Maybe you have to move one into engagement with Wedge, and he'll murder it.  It's still a wasted Yavaris activation, regardless of how your TIE dies.  Repeat for the other TIE, for the complete opposite end of the squadron ball.  Wedge is too far.  If Jan is there, she's likely exposed, and you should probably have focused your stuff on killing her.  You've absorbed at least one, probably two Yavaris activations, at the cost of two TIEs.  That's often worth it.  I'm not advocating this strategy when they've already engaged with your entire fighter complement.  Instead it's about making this the opening move of the squadron battle, or moving squads that were well out of engagement range.

8 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

I think avenger was nerfed because with BT it was very power

I now really want a T-shirt saying "BTAvenger is very power."

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1 hour ago, moodswing5537 said:

I don't buy this. How many "complaints" did you see about Avenger before it got FAQ'd? I remember none. I think folks are trying to establish effect before cause here. FFG has play testers. They may skim the forums, but I seriously doubt they use it as a tool to affect game change. If this was the case, we would have had direct communications from a member of their staff to "quell" the masses WAY before the nerfs. We have been complaining about transparency SINCE THE BEGINNING, and they have changed nothing on that path. 

We talked about Relay and Rieekan, and they both happened to get nerfed. We didn't CAUSE anything.....it was coincidental, IMHO. 

BT Avenger was complained about since BT came out, just not as much as the Yavaris eats my lunch, and Flotillas are just no fun to play against complaints.  The playtesters are here, and have opinions. As they remain anonymous, there is no reason to believe they were not part of the Nerf it crowd from the beginning.

Are you seriously going try to tell me that the game designers who were so shortsighted or lazy that they created this rules nightmare that only a series of Nerfs can fix, was so on the ball making those Nerfs, it just looks like they had their finger on the pulse of the Armada Forums???

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37 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Shara is speed 5.  Your screen (let's say five TIEs and a Jumpmaster, but three TIEs are dead now) is speed 4.  Wedge is speed 3.  B-wings are speed 2.  If you're getting your distance and timing right, Shara, and only Shara, should be able to force engagement.  (If you're worried about FCT for Wedge, bring... maybe Vector?)  Therefore, your Jumpmaster only needs to be one place.  After it's there, your TIEs can now move to both sides of the three B-wings.  Maybe you have to move one into engagement with Wedge, and he'll murder it.  It's still a wasted Yavaris activation, regardless of how your TIE dies.  Repeat for the other TIE, for the complete opposite end of the squadron ball.  Wedge is too far.  If Jan is there, she's likely exposed, and you should probably have focused your stuff on killing her.  You've absorbed at least one, probably two Yavaris activations, at the cost of two TIEs.  That's often worth it.  I'm not advocating this strategy when they've already engaged with your entire fighter complement.  Instead it's about making this the opening move of the squadron battle, or moving squads that were well out of engagement range.

I now really want a T-shirt saying "BTAvenger is very power."

Hahaha whoops, thought i fixed that ?

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So where are the “please don’t reveal Wave 8!” posts. 

or:

”Make sure the Hyperspace Report has zilch about anything other than Xwing.”

or

”Your FAQs are coming out WAY too fast.”

:)

I think for each example you guys cite about them looking at the forum, there are plenty of counter examples. 

(But I am looking forward to having a community manager for FFG, aince I posted that. :) )

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6 hours ago, cynanbloodbane said:

BT Avenger was complained about since BT came out, just not as much as the Yavaris eats my lunch, and Flotillas are just no fun to play against complaints.  The playtesters are here, and have opinions. As they remain anonymous, there is no reason to believe they were not part of the Nerf it crowd from the beginning.

Are you seriously going try to tell me that the game designers who were so shortsighted or lazy that they created this rules nightmare that only a series of Nerfs can fix, was so on the ball making those Nerfs, it just looks like they had their finger on the pulse of the Armada Forums???

No, what I'm trying to tell you is that the forums are not the place the game designers go in order to fix game balance. Honestly, I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated:

" The playtesters are here, and have opinions."

I think the playtesters went to FFG and said "hey, I don't know if you guys know this, but one of your admins put up a forum for armada like a gazillion years ago and people actually formed a community over there and they kinda are pissed about a few things....." 

FFG: "Oh, thats nice...so, what are you folks winning a lot with...."

Playtester #1: "MAN! I take this Rymer guy, some bombers, all the aces, and jendon and like 6 flotillas and I relay from the next county over. It Wrecks Face!"

FFG: "hhhmmm....<Picks up Nerf bat>"

I would have to be given serious evidence that FFG has "Their finger on the pulse" of the community before I would make such a statement.

Also, I don't know why, but the avatar pics are broken for me in the profile edit page, so when you see me change so many times lately, it's because I'm having to guess which one I want. Kinda sux. 

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