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MandalorianMoose

Like watching paint dry

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2 hours ago, Jimble said:

Armada is generally not an exciting game to watch. The usual comparison for Armada is to chess as a strategic game and X-Wing to poker. Poker and X-Wing are quick are generally interesting to watch. Chess and Armada are not.

Maybe Armada is like chess and X-wing like poker. But I cannot find it interesting to watch X-wing. I watched two games that demonstrated X-wing 2.0. And it was dull. I can't find any real strategy and development in this game. In many cases its only point seems to be how the defense dice are falling. I really wondered if I should get into X-wing now. But after watching these two games I don't think I will ever.

When I watch an Armada battle. Everything is of meaning. The battle reports of Mother of the Fleet are really entertaining and informative. Yes it resembles a bit a game of chess, which I also like to watch.

Maybe I don't know enough about X-wing to enjoy it. But I know I'am not the only one who likes better to see a battle between ISD and Home One, than a dogfight.

Edited by Triangular
wrote W-wing instead of X-wing. Meant Why-wing, I suppose...

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8 hours ago, xanderf said:

I mean, the solution to the problem really can be addressed by almost one point, and one point only...

...this is exactly what happens when you have single-elimination finals in a game like 'Armada'.

For something like 'X-Wing', when there are a LOT of turns, things move quickly, ships die easily, and matches along the way regularly (if not usually) go 100% vs 0% scoring...single-elimination works fine and has no negative effect on the game.

Armada is...none of those things.  When you've got a game where it's rare for one side to be completely destroyed, scoring no points, and usually games are won on some split...single-elimination as a format warps the results.  And so you see a match like this, where one player pulling ahead with 151 pts to another player's 150 pts...is exactly as good as a perfect 400-0 win.  The net result is "like watching paint dry" slow and cautious play.

The easiest fix to this is just to eliminate...well, elimination rounds...from Armada tournaments.  Pure Swiss, top score wins.  Such a format penalizes overly-cautious play, as while you may rack up more 'technical wins', your score in each will be too small to take the overall top spot.  As often as not, you'll still end up with the same top players in the top spots...but probably fewer Rieekan lists, and absolutely more intense games that have more combat.

Or cut the match to 2hours exactly instead of letting them play it out, just like all the previous matches. It would cause greater tenseness as well as forcing them to play to the climax faster. If as a real admiral you also would not be taking your time scratching your chin for as long as you like at the tactical heads-up while your forces are getting shot up. :P

 

Edited by Muelmuel

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I'm going to disagree here. I found it interesting to watch.

The decision to put Corran Horn into the enemy ball early stood out as an odd choice for Yik and seemed to be out of fear of a Hera'd Numb, but he was first player so would be able to respond. I'm not going to argue the ship play was interesting. It wasnt. The squad play very much was, however, like many game you need to understand the nuances of what exactly is going on in the contest, which the commentators did not.

Why did Yik nibble at the YT's first? Why were the YT's even away from Nathan's fleet? What was Corran doing? All interesting conudrums that made watching interesting.

If you want to see speed 4 ships racing across the table then you were disappointed, but that isnt all that Armada is. Enjoy the intracacies.

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6 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

I think the one thing conclusively proven by the top 4 of all of Rebels is that Imperials need a cheap non-flotilla ship.  There were only two Imperial fleet archetypes that did well: entirely focused around the squads and effectively no squads at all.  In either case the Rebel archetypes out-activated them,  outdeployed them, and fielded as many if not more squads. 

I feel this isn't doom and gloom in the way it was last year.  Even with Rieekan on the board,  there were actual shots traded out by the larger ships.  The overly cautious squadron battle was largely a product of the format, not the lists.

I had neither ships nor squads, finishing 6th due to all ship matchups in final two rounds. I was out activated and out deployed in every game yet I still did well. Your statements just don't make sense.

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I actually enjoyed watching the matches! They weren't explosively cinematic but they were intensely thoughtful and strategic. I really got into the chess-like deliberations and calculations. Maybe it wasn't everybody's cup of tea but I had a good time.

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9 hours ago, Forresto said:

Why does there need to be a solution to "fix" this? 

Armada is all about strategy and the meta is still incredibly flexible.

Squadrons were tempered with the most recent wave but played well they will still perform exceptionally as they do in the canon.

It's pretty simple, a game with two squad-based fleets takes a long long time to play and is extremely taxing, and worst of all it's mind-numbingly boring to watch. Squadrons have far too many rules right now and it drags this game down. Lots of Aces makes this even worse,  and right now the best Squad assembly is lots of aces.

We've had several players locally quit the game because we've had several players locally quit the game because it just takes too **** long to play when two Squad builds meet.

Edited by Thraug

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I couldnt be bothered to read the whole thread, but to add to what Vergillus touched on;

Its the same people guys. Especially Nathan who has brought some variant of rieekan aces to like three straight finals. And if you look at the expanded standings, for each day, you see even more familiar names.

You wanna stop seeing Rieekan in the finals? Nerf the people. I guess like buy one of those really high capacity nerfs and just keep firing the whole tournament until they tilt.

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1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

I had a blast.

FFG seriously needs to hire the Canadian crew to cover these things. 

I mean it's hard to not have a blast when you and @geek19 are working hard on getting your drank on, hahaha ;).

It was a rather boring match but I understand why the players involved played it the way they did. They're good players and due to only win vs. loss mattering, if you are uncertain of a knockout punch you try to shave off slightly more points than your opponent by the time it's over.

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5 hours ago, Ophion said:

Literally this is the first tourney ive seen anyone use hammerheads seriously. Before now people have basically regarded them as a joke. Now they are the source of imperial excuse making!

I had a HH, with admiral & various cards roll 11 freaking damage on me once. First shot of the game.

 

But in a different game once I caught 2 HH’s in the front arc of my Gunnery team ISD. They evaporated ?

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15 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

You wanna stop seeing Rieekan in the finals? Nerf the people. I guess like buy one of those really high capacity nerfs and just keep firing the whole tournament until they tilt.

I’m pretty sure they have belt fed ones now. Bring a minion. Have them sign up for he Imperial Assault Finals since anyone can get in to the IA tourney. *rimshot* Have that minion collect rounds and reload belts. You should be able to reduce the total size of your needed ammo hoppers by around 20-30% for sustained barrages. 

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15 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I couldnt be bothered to read the whole thread, but to add to what Vergillus touched on;

Its the same people guys. Especially Nathan who has brought some variant of rieekan aces to like three straight finals. And if you look at the expanded standings, for each day, you see even more familiar names.

You wanna stop seeing Rieekan in the finals? Nerf the people. I guess like buy one of those really high capacity nerfs and just keep firing the whole tournament until they tilt.

So it’s the same people with the same general form of reeikan aces in the last three years of finals. Yeah nothing to see here. 

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11 hours ago, ryanabt said:

Did you have to read his post? No? So it actually...didn't have any effect on how you participate in the hobby at all? You're just upset about how *other completely different people* partake in a game you had no involvement in?


Yeah ok.


*This is not meant to suggest that you cannot have an opinion, but that the nature of your opinion is, ironically, quite similar to that it dismisses.

The difference is I'm not implicitly calling for changes to the game.  There have been, at this point, *2* rounds of Rieekan / Squadron nerfs (more if you count "soft-nerfs" like the Wave 7 anti-squadron upgrades).  Some of the changes I liked, and others I didn't.  In general, I feel that the response has been a bit heavy-handed, and I am not eager to see *more* happen.  Continued bellyaching about Rieekan/squadrons/whatever may actually *change the game I play*, so yes, it *does* effect the hobby I participate in. 

It would be one thing if OP's lament was "I went to a regionals post-faq and I *still* kept getting crushed by Rieekan aceholes."  I can sympathize with getting bored with sameness in a local meta, especially if it interferes with one's ability to progress on the competitive scene.  But this was just whining about seeing the same matchups at a tournament that OP didn't even attend, with the implied call for *more* changes. 

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5 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

So it’s the same people with the same general form of reeikan aces in the last three years of finals. Yeah nothing to see here. 

Same general form?  Wasn't one running an MC80?

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I will try to explain myself as when I posted, it was late and been out drinking. Also writing something in a post can't always get the way someone means the way you can when talking face-to-face. What I meant is, in general, Armada is a slow game, 6 turns and that's it, X-Wing (I know very little about it) is a faster paced game and you see lot of movement. I find it fascinating in Armada the way people play, what fleets are built, things to with game in general but it is not interesting. It's a nuance in language, the way I look at the game compared with how others do and writing can lose intent, meaning that can be given face-to-face. To me, Armada is a fascinating and intriguing game I will play for a long time to come

So to summarise the summary of the summary. Armada is BOTH interesting and not interesting. Best explanation I can give.

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I'm wondering if this will contribute to any more nerfs eventually. I have liked every need they have done so far, but I think they need one more. Only allow 2 (maybe 3) aces in a fleet. Now that we have the hard 2 limit on flotillas, there is a precedent.  This would be so much better game wise and thematically.  And squads would die a lot faster. Hopefully making the game a a bit faster. 

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5 minutes ago, Tiberius the Killer said:

I'm wondering if this will contribute to any more nerfs eventually. I have liked every need they have done so far, but I think they need one more. Only allow 2 (maybe 3) aces in a fleet. Now that we have the hard 2 limit on flotillas, there is a precedent.  This would be so much better game wise and thematically.  And squads would die a lot faster. Hopefully making the game a a bit faster. 

Honestly, that was part of my point on the earlier page RE: the problem with single-elimination matches.

I'm an Imperial player, and I think the current-state Rieekan is more or less fine.  More nerfs aren't needed.  The problem with the last match being what it was comes entirely from its nature as single-elimination instead of just part of the Swiss rounds.

I really hope FFG doesn't look at the final matchup being Rieekan vs Rieekan, even AFTER his last nerf, and decide that more nerfing is needed to the commander or to squadrons generally...

The problem here isn't Rieekan or squadrons.  It's the impact that single-elimination format has on a game like 'Armada', which ain't 'X-Wing'...

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5 minutes ago, xanderf said:

The problem here isn't Rieekan or squadrons.  It's the impact that single-elimination format has on a game like 'Armada', which ain't 'X-Wing'...

Yeah, I see your point.  Regardless, I do think that Ace balls are a problem, and would love them to be changed.

But what is your proposed solution?  A final 4, in which the top points of a series of 2 or 3 games wins?

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5 minutes ago, Tiberius the Killer said:

Yeah, I see your point.  Regardless, I do think that Ace balls are a problem, and would love them to be changed.

But what is your proposed solution?  A final 4, in which the top points of a series of 2 or 3 games wins?

I'd actually do top 8 - best 4 from each previous day - and winner is top score over 3 games (score continuing on from previous days - although I don't feel as strongly about this point and would entertain arguments against it).

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