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MandalorianMoose

Like watching paint dry

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So how do you all feel about that finals match huh? Rieekan aces vs aces again, so exciting right? Nothing like watching ships slow roll around each other while a squad blob trades attacks in the middle of the field... I know nothing gets me on my feet and into a game like seeing 2 and 3 dice at a time being rolled amongst tiny fighters. Who would ever want to see big ship batteries trading fire and positioning of ships relative to each other??? Much better to just watch people move squadrons around and measure like 30 times on each move for three hours...

This is supposed to be a capital ships game right?

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It was... slow for sure.

I don't know if there's a solution though, right?  Pretty much every move on both sides from deployment is taking into account the crazy crazy power of a triple-tap Ten Numb.  You gotta play careful or get your whole squad ball wiped.  I'm not sure how to address it because of how many moving parts are involved?

I have to say though it was weird watching so many ships fly sooo cautiously because only the outcome of the squad blob really mattered.

edit:  That said though you could definitely tell both of them were super good and know exactly what they're doing.  A very technical match for sure!

Edited by duck_bird

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Just now, scipio83 said:

Just to make sure I understand you: 

 

You're complaining that a livestream of two grown men pushing around plastic spaceships for 3 hours wasn't exciting enough?  

 

Well ****.  I guess the only more exciting thing to do would be... any other thing in the world.

More complaining that for the 3rd year in a row now it’s just been squads vs squads, with Rieekan being 5 of 6 commanders...

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5 minutes ago, scipio83 said:

Did you play in the finals?  No?  So it actually... didn't have any effect on how you participate in the hobby at all?  You're just upset about how *other completely different people* played a game that you had no involvement in?  

 

Yeah ok.

I had a guy in the San Antonio community play nothing but GHY 2+3 competitively. Even brought it in a corellian conflict. Rieekan sucks. 

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1 minute ago, TallGiraffe said:

I had a guy in the San Antonio community play nothing but GHY 2+3 competitively. Even brought it in a corellian conflict. Rieekan sucks. 

I really want to play against someone great with Rieekan. I've played against people that have done alright with him but even pre-nerf I was never that concerned about him. I'm obviously just playing against the wrong people. 

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3 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

I had a guy in the San Antonio community play nothing but GHY 2+3 competitively. Even brought it in a corellian conflict. Rieekan sucks. 

This is no longer legal per the nerf, right?  2 flots max, no lifeboats?  How have your post-faq matches been?

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1 minute ago, dominosfleet said:

I really want to play against someone great with Rieekan. I've played against people that have done alright with him but even pre-nerf I was never that concerned about him. I'm obviously just playing against the wrong people. 

That player played aggressively with Haven with excellent precision on squadron placement. 

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I cannot speak about how others might respond.  I know for myself, as wave-6 got onward, it really felt like I had to have pretty specific builds or I really couldn't stay competitive.  Despite the results here, I think in a post FAQ world there are plenty of builds that could have gone the distance if played by competent players.  We know Coda has been flying Rieekan aces for ever.  He hasn't changed away from it.  We know Yik took Rieekan aces to the next level in Toronto, and he's certainly the one that got 6 activation Corran started, so it is unsurprising that he stuck with what he knew.  We know JJ was experimenting with Raddus for a while, so he took a variant of what he knew.  I don't know anything about Rikki.  I do know the majority of the local players who went to worlds took lists that they'd been playing for a long time but for which they'd adapted in the post-FAQ world.  In my opinion, given how recent the FAQ is, that isn't enough time for the more intrepid builders to pioneer new lists that go in completely different directions, but work with both the most recent wave and the post FAQ meta.

Despite it being a no squadron list, I think @Snipafist did brilliantly.  He deserves to be proud of what he accomplished.   There were probably a few others that we won't know clearly about.  Given slightly different match-ups, nearly everyone in the top 3rd could potentially have made that cut.  That's just part of the game.

So yeah, mass squadrons with precision is not my cup of tea either, but I can accept that some players have gotten really extremely good with them.

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46 minutes ago, scipio83 said:

Did you play in the finals?  No?  So it actually... didn't have any effect on how you participate in the hobby at all?  You're just upset about how *other completely different people* played a game that you had no involvement in?  

 

Yeah ok.

Did you have to read his post? No? So it actually...didn't have any effect on how you participate in the hobby at all? You're just upset about how *other completely different people* partake in a game you had no involvement in?


Yeah ok.


*This is not meant to suggest that you cannot have an opinion, but that the nature of your opinion is, ironically, quite similar to that it dismisses.

Edited by ryanabt

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I mean, the solution to the problem really can be addressed by almost one point, and one point only...

3 hours ago, duck_bird said:

I have to say though it was weird watching so many ships fly sooo cautiously because only the outcome of the squad blob really mattered.

...this is exactly what happens when you have single-elimination finals in a game like 'Armada'.

For something like 'X-Wing', when there are a LOT of turns, things move quickly, ships die easily, and matches along the way regularly (if not usually) go 100% vs 0% scoring...single-elimination works fine and has no negative effect on the game.

Armada is...none of those things.  When you've got a game where it's rare for one side to be completely destroyed, scoring no points, and usually games are won on some split...single-elimination as a format warps the results.  And so you see a match like this, where one player pulling ahead with 151 pts to another player's 150 pts...is exactly as good as a perfect 400-0 win.  The net result is "like watching paint dry" slow and cautious play.

The easiest fix to this is just to eliminate...well, elimination rounds...from Armada tournaments.  Pure Swiss, top score wins.  Such a format penalizes overly-cautious play, as while you may rack up more 'technical wins', your score in each will be too small to take the overall top spot.  As often as not, you'll still end up with the same top players in the top spots...but probably fewer Rieekan lists, and absolutely more intense games that have more combat.

Edited by xanderf

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Its worlds. The top level of competitive play. Its not fluffy bunnies. We are going to see the most competitive lists that the best players can field. Something is going to rise to the top and the nature of the finals scoring means it is always going to be a very intricate and technical final. If they wanted casual viewer exciting games they would be better streaming the middle tables in the general rounds. Or some of the excellent community content thats oit there.

 

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That's disappointing for certain, but it sounds like 1) this was a much more wide open meta than last Worlds and 2) games that decided who was in and out of the cut were incredibly close. I think if you ran the same players with the same lists again, you have a good chance of a completely different set of lists settling at the top.

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1 hour ago, Truthiness said:

That's disappointing for certain, but it sounds like 1) this was a much more wide open meta than last Worlds and 2) games that decided who was in and out of the cut were incredibly close. I think if you ran the same players with the same lists again, you have a good chance of a completely different set of lists settling at the top.

I know @Snipafist was 1 hp away from tableing Nathans Rieekan aces with a kickass MSU fleet which woulda put him in the cut instead

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I think the one thing conclusively proven by the top 4 of all of Rebels is that Imperials need a cheap non-flotilla ship.  There were only two Imperial fleet archetypes that did well: entirely focused around the squads and effectively no squads at all.  In either case the Rebel archetypes out-activated them,  outdeployed them, and fielded as many if not more squads. 

I feel this isn't doom and gloom in the way it was last year.  Even with Rieekan on the board,  there were actual shots traded out by the larger ships.  The overly cautious squadron battle was largely a product of the format, not the lists.

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My 2 pennies worth

Armada is generally not an exciting game to watch. The usual comparison for Armada is to chess as a strategic game and X-Wing to poker. Poker and X-Wing are quick are generally interesting to watch. Chess and Armada are not. How many late night chess games have you seen on TV? Playing Armada is a game I love to play, and since the game started, I have travelled around the UK,  Ireland, Holland and this year Worlds, but have rarely found it an exciting watch but I do watch it. I personally found the final game slow, but expected that with so many squadrons between the fleets only picking up last 20 minutes as points got close and winning or losing was on a knife edge. It is generally a tense, exciting game for players, not spectators and best way to introduce new people to the game is to get them to play it, not watch it. Unlike X-Wing, Armada has a limited number of turns and one small mistake on one activation can make or break the match. The 4 players that made the cut are very good players who know this, so are calculated and careful in the moves made, thus being a slow game with so much involved. Is there a problem with Rieekan, Yavaris or when combined together? maybe, but as I have said the 3 players that used them are good players who have played numerous games and know how to use this combination. I have played with and against this combo since it came out, winning and losing both ways. I didn't have a match against any of the Rieekan/Yavaris lists, but with my experience think I might have had a chance against any of them (lots of factors involved so will say 50/50). An annoyance I get when people describe Armada. It is NOT a game of Capital Ships, it is a FLEET game. This is both Capital Ships AND squadrons.

Sorry for the ramble, basically Armada is slow and not spectator friendly, but a game I think is great and teach to any who are interested. To me, Armada will never die.

Seems you can get a lot for 2p

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As @xanderf says, the issue is elimination rounds. Swiss doesn’t encourage this sort of cautious play. Cutting to elimination rounds makes it essential in the elimination rounds. Frankly the best tactic in an elimination round is to go second and run away for the draw/win. It’s only if you can’t do that that you have to actually fight. 

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4 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

Not surprised to see Rieekan since he is an everything counter 

I think it's this.

Between Raddus nesting dolls blowing out of hyperspace with a friend at close range (where Cymoons can't chip them down on the approach) for total annihilation... and Cymoon/ISD destroyers that just annihilate things on the approach... what are the tools you swing to that allow your ships to survive that kind of punishment and hang around?

Before, Rieekan was kind of an insult to players by putting him out there with ships and a smug expression. So long as Rieekan isn't killed, his ships are nearly invincible for a turn, barring extraordinary firepower. Even then, they aren't removed. Rieekan's reduction at least makes the choice more strategic, but you can't deny he's the most defensive Admiral in the game. And supporting this defensive play is Yavaris, which in spite of its' fix it's still the most potent fighter activation in the game (by virtue of doubling all ace-squadron battery attacks).

So you can conclude from this that Rieekan lists are the ultimate in defensive strategy in a universe dominated by high-powered assault builds. Big ships got great... but they're so great the only counter to them is to allow a starship to persist after it's been assuredly destroyed by your opponent's super powered attack list.

 

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

I think the one thing conclusively proven by the top 4 of all of Rebels is that Imperials need a cheap non-flotilla ship.  There were only two Imperial fleet archetypes that did well: entirely focused around the squads and effectively no squads at all.  In either case the Rebel archetypes out-activated them,  outdeployed them, and fielded as many if not more squads. 

I feel this isn't doom and gloom in the way it was last year.  Even with Rieekan on the board,  there were actual shots traded out by the larger ships.  The overly cautious squadron battle was largely a product of the format, not the lists.

Just the other day I was lamenting, "Raiders... why couldn't you be like normal Corvettes?" (But you saw that didn't you Cactus?). I can make the case for Rebels getting a lot more use and flexibility out of corvettes and hammerheads as their lightest assets vs what Empire has in the Raider. It's too niche. If a playing piece requires **expert knowledge** to run effectively, then is it really a good playing piece? the only other light option for the empire is the assault Gozanti!

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