Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Big Easy

Can't Compulsory Move through Engaged Units

Recommended Posts

RRG (p25, Displacement) says compulsory move can't move through OR end up on Engaged units...presumably that means that if the repulsor unit cannot do any other legal move around the engagement, that it takes damage equal to its speed?

I know some rules seem kinda silly especially with speeders since mechanically you have to work out the fact that they're connected to the table via a base. But just making sure this is the way the rules works and is intended.

Edited by Big Easy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

That is how we played it.

Large base speeders have a tough life.

Did you allow them to stop short for height 0-2 terrain on their compulsory move without taking damage? Could that lead to a situation where the speeder stays in place each turn (until it gets shot out of the sky)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that is how it reads. Nothing can move through engaged units. I'm not sure it's intended, since it does seem silly for a repulsor vehicle to be prevented from flying over a scuffle on the ground. I think it's an oversight? But until (or if) they change it, it is what it is.

I could've sworn I saw an email response somewhere that said the intent is you don't take damage from compulsory moves when small things like barricades are stopping you. Anyone seen that? I didn't see it in the email thread, so maybe I dreamed it up...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, nashjaee said:

I agree that is how it reads. Nothing can move through engaged units. I'm not sure it's intended, since it does seem silly for a repulsor vehicle to be prevented from flying over a scuffle on the ground. I think it's an oversight? But until (or if) they change it, it is what it is.

I could've sworn I saw an email response somewhere that said the intent is you don't take damage from compulsory moves when small things like barricades are stopping you. Anyone seen that? I didn't see it in the email thread, so maybe I dreamed it up...

I recall the no damage for compulsory moves, but I guess I'm trying to confirm that the result can be that, given enough terrain in your way, your speeder can end up "parked" in one spot for several rounds. Im thinking that's how it has to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Big Easy said:

I recall the no damage for compulsory moves, but I guess I'm trying to confirm that the result can be that, given enough terrain in your way, your speeder can end up "parked" in one spot for several rounds. Im thinking that's how it has to be.

You get damaged by your speed for each incomplete compulsory move, so if your base, while moving along the movement ruler, hits terrain that it can't cross (height 3) or if you can't do your full move to place the big base at the end of your move because it would end on top of units engaged in melee, vehicles.
So if you "stay in place" for any of these reasons, you take 3 immediate damage.
Also, you get destroyed if you end your compulsory move with even one bit of your base out of the battlefield.
 

Since the base is pretty big for the airspeeder, it can be pretty tough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

You get damaged by your speed for each incomplete compulsory move, so if your base, while moving along the movement ruler, hits terrain that it can't cross (height 3) or if you can't do your full move to place the big base at the end of your move because it would end on top of units engaged in melee, vehicles.
So if you "stay in place" for any of these reasons, you take 3 immediate damage.
Also, you get destroyed if you end your compulsory move with even one bit of your base out of the battlefield.
 

Since the base is pretty big for the airspeeder, it can be pretty tough.

Agreed, I suppose in the parking example I meant terrain under height 3 with no engaged troopers in the way. Barricades, crates etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the “no damage” comment, it’s possible that it was a verbal ruling/comment from the devs at Adepticon. Either way, as it currently reads you take damage for doing a partial move no matter the reason. So if you’re parked for several rounds, you are taking damage.

And I just want to point out, because it’s easy to miss due to being in different parts of the rule book, the unit leader is not required to go off the board with a compulsory move. You can stop at the edge with a partial move and take damage instead. It’s under Speeder X on page 40:

Quote

[...] if a full move would cause any part of the unit leader’s 
base to be outside the battlefield, it can perform a partial 
move instead [...]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Big Easy said:

Did you allow them to stop short for height 0-2 terrain on their compulsory move without taking damage? Could that lead to a situation where the speeder stays in place each turn (until it gets shot out of the sky)?

No, that would require the unit to be surrounded on all sides at a distance or speed 3 where everyone is in a giant melee (because they all have to be in base contact).

(airspeeder could pivot for the next compulsory move even if the front 180 arc were entirely filled at speed 3, which is an absurdly large area.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Derrault said:

No, that would require the unit to be surrounded on all sides at a distance or speed 3 where everyone is in a giant melee (because they all have to be in base contact).

(airspeeder could pivot for the next compulsory move even if the front 180 arc were entirely filled at speed 3, which is an absurdly large area.)

I'm still confused. For this example, let's say there are no troopers anywhere. Just crates and barricades. Slot the 3-speed tool in the notch. Anywhere you adjust the tool, there's something in the footprint of the base that prevents the speeder from sitting flat. 

Are people playing that that the speeder takes damage? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"While performing a standard move, a repulsor vehicle
mini can move onto or over a piece of a terrain that has
a height that is equal to or less than the height
of the unit
leader’s mini."
 

So yeah, you can put it onto a barricade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vertical movement doesn't apply there, since vertical movement is for climbing up or down for vehicles or troops.

Speeders do not climb up or down, they only move through or on top of terrain as the speeder X rule states. "Can move over [...] Can end it's movement".

No rule state that the vehicle has to have its base wholly on the terrain.

It's a gap in the rules for now, that can only be decided by the Devs. For now, omission means permission since the rules for vertical movement can't apply since they only concern units that can move up or down in a specific scenario. Otherwise, one could argue that a mini cannot be half in a forest (it's area terrain) but has to either be fully in it or out of it. It just doesn't apply.

Edited by Deuzerre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

Vertical movement doesn't apply there, since vertical movement is for climbing up or down for vehicles or troops.

Speeders do not climb up or down, they only move through or on top of terrain as the speeder X rule states. "Can move over [...] Can end it's movement".

No rule state that the vehicle has to have its base wholly on the terrain.

Vertical movement is vertical movement. Climbing/clambering is how ground vehicles and infantry can achieve vertical movement.

Using Jump or Speeder to achieve vertical movement doesn't mean you can ignore the rules for vertical movement, and balancing components haphazardly on top of one another is, in general, a poor idea.

Edited by Tvayumat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Vertical movement does not employ the movement tool" <- The rules.
 

It's the whole "But targeting scopes shouldn't help luke hit with his lightsabre!?!" thing. Vertical movement covers, as I said, vehicules and troops moving up and down with clamber or climb. It doesn't involve speeders in any way that have their changes in elevation covered in their own rules.

I agree that putting models on unstable terrain is dumb though. But there's plenty of places where you can fit (especially with such a large base) without being unstable but still lot having the whole base on terrain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

"Vertical movement does not employ the movement tool" <- The rules.
 

It's the whole "But targeting scopes shouldn't help luke hit with his lightsabre!?!" thing. Vertical movement covers, as I said, vehicules and troops moving up and down with clamber or climb. It doesn't involve speeders in any way that have their changes in elevation covered in their own rules.

I agree that putting models on unstable terrain is dumb though. But there's plenty of places where you can fit (especially with such a large base) without being unstable but still lot having the whole base on terrain.

Agreed with @Deuzerre. There is nothing to suggest the vertical movement section applies to repulsor vehicles and every bit of its wording to suggest it only applies to climbing and clambering. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

"Vertical movement does not employ the movement tool" <- The rules.
 

It's the whole "But targeting scopes shouldn't help luke hit with his lightsabre!?!" thing. Vertical movement covers, as I said, vehicules and troops moving up and down with clamber or climb. It doesn't involve speeders in any way that have their changes in elevation covered in their own rules.

I agree that putting models on unstable terrain is dumb though. But there's plenty of places where you can fit (especially with such a large base) without being unstable but still lot having the whole base on terrain.

Huh. Fair point.

I was assuming some things. It seems like there should be a connection but RAW doesn't say so... this whole subject probably needs clarifying regardless.

Edited by Tvayumat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2018 at 4:04 PM, nashjaee said:

Regarding the “no damage” comment, it’s possible that it was a verbal ruling/comment from the devs at Adepticon. Either way, as it currently reads you take damage for doing a partial move no matter the reason. So if you’re parked for several rounds, you are taking damage.

And I just want to point out, because it’s easy to miss due to being in different parts of the rule book, the unit leader is not required to go off the board with a compulsory move. You can stop at the edge with a partial move and take damage instead. It’s under Speeder X on page 40:

 

Actually it is required to continue off the board - under compulsory move

 

Some game effects require a unit to perform a compulsory move when it is activated.•

To perform a compulsory move, the unit performs a full move following the normal movement rules, using its maximum speed.•

If it is impossible for a unit to perform a full move, it can perform a partial move instead, but the partial move must end as far along the movement template as possible.

 »If the unit performs a partial movement because it cannot perform a full movement, the unit immediately suffers a number of wounds equal to its maximum speed.

»If the unit leader ends this movement with any part of its base outside of the battlefield, the unit is defeated.• 

 

I have bolded the important part here, with a compulsory move if you can make a full move you MUST go the full distance and if your base goes off the table at the end of that move the unit is destroyed, you cannot choose to stop early, it is only if the compulsory move was a impossible to complete does it become partial. Hitting the edge of the board doesn't make the full move impossible as you still have the ability to continue and it is not impossible to complete.

Edited by syrath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, syrath said:

Actually it is required to continue off the board - under compulsory move

 

Some game effects require a unit to perform a compulsory move when it is activated.•

To perform a compulsory move, the unit performs a full move following the normal movement rules, using its maximum speed.•

If it is impossible for a unit to perform a full move, it can perform a partial move instead, but the partial move must end as far along the movement template as possible.

 »If the unit performs a partial movement because it cannot perform a full movement, the unit immediately suffers a number of wounds equal to its maximum speed.

»If the unit leader ends this movement with any part of its base outside of the battlefield, the unit is defeated.• 

 

I have bolded the important part here, with a compulsory move if you can make a full move you MUST go the full distance and if your base goes off the table at the end of that move the unit is destroyed, you cannot choose to stop early, it is only if the compulsory move was a impossible to complete does it become partial. Hitting the edge of the board doesn't make the full move impossible as you still have the ability to continue and it is not impossible to complete.

The part that I quoted seems to override this. Here it is in its entirety, with the important part highlighted. Again, this is from page 40 under Speeder X:

Quote

To perform a compulsory move, the unit performs a 
full move at its maximum speed. If it cannot do so, or 
if a full move would cause any part of the unit leader’s 
base to be outside the battlefield, it can perform a partial 
move instead
, ending its movement as far along the 
movement template as possible. If the unit performs a 
partial movement in this way, the unit suffers a number 
of wounds equal to its maximum speed. If the unit leader 
ends this movement with any part of its base outside of 
the battlefield, the unit is defeated.

So, you perform a partial going as far as you can. In this case the edge of the board must be their intent with the phrase “as far along as possible”, otherwise the bolded clause wouldn’t need to be there.

Edited by nashjaee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.To perform a compulsory move, the unit performs a full move at its maximum speed. If it cannot do so, or if a full move would cause any part of the unit leader’s base to be outside the battlefield, it can perform a partial move instead, ending its movement as far along the movement template as possible. If the unit performs a partial movement in this way, the unit suffers a number of wounds equal to its maximum speed. If the unit leader ends this movement with any part of its base outside of the battlefield, the unit is defeated.

So we have a quandary here, I think I'll put this one to support one says you Must do it unless it's impossible the other says you have the option, It has been said though that where it says you cannot do something this takes precedence , and the rule on page 21 does say effectively you cannot stop early, however they are both very specifically about the same thing. I'll let you know how they answer.

Edited by syrath

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, syrath said:

What version of the Rules Reference is that I may have or you may have an older one.  for reference minds is definitely the latest and it's under the compulsory move section on page 21.

There’s only one version of the RRG right now. They haven’t updated it yet, so we are definitely looking at the same one. It’s certainly confusing that an important line pertaining to compulsory move does not exist under the Compulsory Move section, but is under a related section. Perhaps they forgot to copy it there, or they just didn’t consider it? It may help with overall clarity if they add that language to Compulsory Move, though.

But technically the two passages don’t conflict with each other. One of the passages just adds more information that the other one is missing. To paraphrase, page 21 says “if you can’t do a full move, do a partial instead and take damage”. Page 40 adds “oh by the way, here’s another case where you can do a partial move”.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

There’s only one version of the RRG right now. They haven’t updated it yet, so we are definitely looking at the same one. It’s certainly confusing that an important line pertaining to compulsory move does not exist under the Compulsory Move section, but is under a related section. Perhaps they forgot to copy it there, or they just didn’t consider it? It may help with overall clarity if they add that language to Compulsory Move, though.

But technically the two passages don’t conflict with each other. One of the passages just adds more information that the other one is missing. To paraphrase, page 21 says “if you can’t do a full move, do a partial instead and take damage”. Page 40 adds “oh by the way, here’s another case where you can do a partial move”.

Yet the first rule says you can only do a partial move if it is impossible to do a full move for any reason. Stopping a unit by choice doesn't mean that it was impossible to complete the full move you could still complete a full move on that occasion, however that rule may indeed override that , but to me choosing to stop early indicates you had a choice to do so , it was still possible to continue off the board so the Rules are mutually exclusive. IE the way I'm looking at it is that it's possible to complete a full move, so you have to complete the full move, whereas the rule on speeder X specifically states you can choose to stop early in that specific situation, it could be it is right, but then it shouldn't say that if it is impossible to complete a full move, because in the situation described in Speeder X it is still possible to complete your full move albeit at your detriment!

Ultimately the rule in Speeder X makes a mockery of the rule of when a unit leader moves off the board though , because as far as I can see the only time you can go off the edge is when you get a trooper unit force pushed, because in all other situations you can choose to stop short. This may well be the case though looking at the rule under Speeder X

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

There’s only one version of the RRG right now. They haven’t updated it yet, so we are definitely looking at the same one. It’s certainly confusing that an important line pertaining to compulsory move does not exist under the Compulsory Move section, but is under a related section. Perhaps they forgot to copy it there, or they just didn’t consider it? It may help with overall clarity if they add that language to Compulsory Move, though.

But technically the two passages don’t conflict with each other. One of the passages just adds more information that the other one is missing. To paraphrase, page 21 says “if you can’t do a full move, do a partial instead and take damage”. Page 40 adds “oh by the way, here’s another case where you can do a partial move”.

Yet the first rule says you can only do a partial move if it is impossible to do a full move for any reason. Stopping a unit by choice doesn't mean that it was impossible to complete the full move you could still complete a full move on that occasion, however that rule may indeed override that , but to me choosing to stop early indicates you had a choice to do so , it was still possible to continue off the board so the Rules are mutually exclusive. IE the way I'm looking at it is that it's possible to complete a full move, so you have to complete the full move, whereas the rule on speeder X specifically states you can choose to stop early in that specific situation, it could be it is right, but then it shouldn't say that if it is impossible to complete a full move, because in the situation described in Speeder X it is still possible to complete your full move albeit at your detriment!

Ultimately the rule in Speeder X makes a mockery of the rule of when a unit leader moves off the board though , because as far as I can see the only time you can go off the edge is when you get a trooper unit force pushed, because in all other situations you can choose to stop short. This may well be the case though looking at the rule under Speeder X

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×