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X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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7 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

Their comparison makes literally no sense. I've played Warhammer Fantasy since the mid 1980's. I've played Rogue Trader, the predecessor to Warhammer 40k and including 40k all the way till now. At no point did Games Workshop force the players to buy conversion kits for their armies. All you ever had to do was buy the new edition's core rulebook and your army's rule book. I mean, it really is that simple. The cost of edition change in 40k is nowhere near as high as 2.0 is.

I’m guessing you never played High Elves then.  We had the core of our armies gutted in successive editions.  Going from 7 Dragon Riders (5 rank and file, General and Mage) in 3rd Ed to you can mount your general on a dragon in 4th Ed turned £120 of minis into scrap lead on the spot, and that’s before buying any rules or army books.  The infamous cavalry changes have already been mentioned above.

Edited by Major Tom

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1 minute ago, Major Tom said:

I’m guessing you never played High Elves then.  We had the core of our armies gutted in successive editions.  Going from 7 Dragon Riders (5 rank and file, General and Mage) in 3rd Ed to you can mount your general on a dragon in 4th Ed turned £120 of minis into scrap lead on the spot, and that’s before buying any rules or army books.  The infamous cavalry changes have already been mentioned above.

Those are army changes. Not changes from the game from one edition to the next. I played Dwarfs, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms so I'm well familiar with unpopular roster decisions from edition to edition...but you never had to buy anything more than the core rulebook and your army book to play from one edition to the next. That's the point...

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8 hours ago, Porkchop Express said:

There will be a big second hand market for uneeded conversion packs. Also it's possible to split packs with your friends.

 

The cost will be nowhere near $300 for most.

Yeah, but the second hand market will be filled with extra Ghost kits etc, while the small based generics will be nowhere to be seen.

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The conversion is less than $90 (you don't have to pay full price, there's plenty of places that sell at a discount). If you don't want to pay more than that don't. Pick a faction or two and sell the rest. It really is that easy. We are a five faction game now with a potential of seven factions eventually. You should stop thinking of this as a "buy every faction" game. Because it isn't anymore and hasn't been for some time except for those who have kept up since the beginning. 

If you have more of a specific ship than a faction's conversion kit supplies you probably have too many of that ship anyway and should sell the extras. Or go on ebay and buy the specifics you need on their own.

With a careful pruning of your extra factions and ships you could upgrade for free or maybe even turn a profit on the whole thing.

Edited by Tooka-cat
Edited for clarity.

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2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

no one ever NEEDS to buy anything except food and medecine, but unfortunately i dont only play with the people in my household.  its hard enough to get people at the local flgs to play now, but if I show up with an outdated game setup and insist they dont use their cool new stuff, then they wont play at all. although honestly the way things have been this 2.0 expense might kill the local scene entirely. people were already annoyed with FFG, so we'll see how it goes

If you coordinated a league emphasising casual play and a restricted list of available cards you'd have a great, self-contained version of 1.0 for decades to come. Hopefully people recognise 2.0 as the entirely new game that it is, and not some teeny tweak to justify more player expense.

1 hour ago, Bulwyf said:

This is just wrong. You can have 10,000 models in your Warhammer army and still only need the core rulebook and your army codex to play in every edition. You never had to "convert" each one of your ships in order to play for any edition.

The OP is correct. I've played Warhammer Fantasy Battles in the mid 1980's and have played a plethora of miniature games since. None of them have been this costly in terms of a simple edition change. That includes games that had radical new rules or options in edition changes. I have, for instance, over 400 individual Space Wolves models for Warhammer 40k. It only cost me a new rulebook and an army book (once it is released for current edition 40k) to make all of those models "converted" for the current edition.

Alright, I've just spent 2 grand of my first Sigmar army. I don't know much, so I took most of a meta list to get me started and... Wait, why do they have to be on round bases? They're still legal for a while like this right? Crap.

Alright, everything's based properly now and I can finally get to playing. Nerfs? Since when was that a recognisable brand?! So now you're telling me my whole army is simply worse than everything else? Crap.

Rinse and repeat. Welcome to Warhammer, where the nerf gun is the strongest weapon of all.

And, you know, a core book and codex for a single faction (not the 3-5 of X-wing conversion kits) is maybe $150-200. So yeah, 40k is more expensive to convert unless you're some kind of X-wing hoarder that also cares about their money.

1 hour ago, Bulwyf said:

Their comparison makes literally no sense. I've played Warhammer Fantasy since the mid 1980's. I've played Rogue Trader, the predecessor to Warhammer 40k and including 40k all the way till now. At no point did Games Workshop force the players to buy conversion kits for their armies. All you ever had to do was buy the new edition's core rulebook and your army's rule book. I mean, it really is that simple. The cost of edition change in 40k is nowhere near as high as 2.0 is.

I hate to break it to you, but X-wing's rule book is printed in a modular manner on various cards, such that they don't form a money-grubbing scandal a la GW products. All you have to do to convert to 2.0 is buy the core set (' core army rulebook') and your army's rulebook ('Conversion kit which also contains copies of every single upgrade in the game). They're also a great deal cheaper.

If you want to compare general cost. The best lists ever in X-wing never exceeded $500 AUD, and rarely poke above $400. All the classic war games - and most modern ones - go for twice that at a minimum - more if you want to do anything except play the same game over and over again. Of course adding in playing fields of a sufficiently aesthetic nature is an extra cost to all war games except FFG's, too.

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And the ugly GW bashing head of the X-Wing forums raises its head ?

Reality? 40k is only horrendously expensive if you're a codex hopper. I'm not so it cost me a total of  £53 to play every model I own in 8th.

If I still had my full X-Wing collection it would cost around  £250 to convert them all to 2nd edition.

Not much of a difference there.

Cheers 

Baaa

 

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5 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

A few things here:

FFG has literally zero obligation to support tournament play.  That they do is a nice bonus, but they have no obligation to.

FFG has literally no duty to do anything other than what they've done up to this point, which is create miniatures and cards for you to play with.  Their obligation to you begins and ends with this.  They deliver what is advertised.

FFG is not forcing you to buy into 2.0.  If you have no issues with X-Wing 1.0 between you and your friends, keep playing it!  If there is no reason for you to upgrade, just don't upgrade!  Is it really that hard?  2.0 apparently doesn't affect you, and has no impact on the products you already have, so don't buy it!  Ta-daaaa!

FFG had no obligation to allow any cross-over between 1.0 and 2.0.  The fact that I can fly all of my previous Imperial and Rebel purchases (with a few I'll need to borrow or buy on the secondary market) for the cost of a wave of X-Wing is a pretttty good deal.  They didn't have to do that.  Other miniatures games don't always do that.  It's pretty cool that they did that.

The sense of entitlement amongst gamers in general is crazy.  I don't think I'll ever fully understand it.  Video games, board games, whatever.  Doesn't matter.  The same sense of entitlement is incredibly pervasive in all forms of it.

  1. FFG is supporting tournament play because this is part of their business model 
  2. FFG has financial interest to keep me happy and they have an obligation to their owners to create some form of dividend for those shareholders who invested hundrets of million of dollar into the company (FFG/Asmodee owner is  private equity.
  3. Legit point.  At least somewhat, but if you do this you will have a lot less play option which might be a big negative change for you ... or not concern you at all. 
  4. They had no obligation, but a pretty high financial incentive. Building up a dedicated user base is in FFGs best interest, because this increases sales. What FFG wants from us old players is to convert us into players of 2nd edition buyers who buy with each wave those new cards. 

 

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1 hour ago, Bulwyf said:

Those are army changes. Not changes from the game from one edition to the next. I played Dwarfs, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms so I'm well familiar with unpopular roster decisions from edition to edition...but you never had to buy anything more than the core rulebook and your army book to play from one edition to the next. That's the point...

That’s entirely disengenuous.  Those army changes are an intrensic part of the edition change.

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Well for one Warhammer and 40K is rubbish, I don't see why anybody wants to play it, I played back in the day and it was rubbish then even watching the games at the local club are boring!.

I refuse to support GW these days.
Anyway we have a good amount of X-wing players, though currently the consensus is waiting a while to see how well 2.0 does as the cost to get our sets upgraded is high.
After playing some games tonight, I was rather bitter. So am keen to check 2.0, though it's gonna be a long while before I can afford the upgrades.

As mentioned, yes we'll get a fair amount of content in the packs though it's still expensive for us non US players.

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8 hours ago, StevenO said:

While it may be off there is still a lot of valid statements in the OPs post.

 

Agreed, however I think the point of this 2.0 is it is supposed to be the last eddition. 

Still the title of this thread is flat out wrong.

Edited by Marinealver

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17 minutes ago, Baaa said:

And the ugly GW bashing head of the X-Wing forums raises its head ?

 

To be fair, every non-GW community bashes GW.  So many of us in this hobby have been burned by Workshop and/or the communities around their games it’s inevitable.  Even the Shadespire community has it’s share of GW bashing, and that’s a GW game.  The paranoia around the potential that S2 of underworlds will not be comparable with Shadespire is palpable.

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8 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

$60

60010199015_40KDarkImperiumENG18.jpg+

$50

60030101036_SpaceMarineCodex01.jpg

I'd say that is more than the $40 core set plus $50 conversion kit.

??

True if you only have one faction and no more ships than the upgrades allow for.

Cheers 

Baaa 

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6 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

To be fair, every non-GW community bashes GW.  So many of us in this hobby have been burned by Workshop and/or the communities around their games it’s inevitable.  Even the Shadespire community has it’s share of GW bashing, and that’s a GW game.  The paranoia around the potential that S2 of underworlds will not be comparable with Shadespire is palpable.

Under the old GW management that would be a reality, probably not now.

Cheers 

Baaa 

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Just now, Baaa said:

??

True if you only have one faction and no more ships than the upgrades allow for.

Cheers 

Baaa 

Woe unto you if you got suckered by the Ally chart in 6th into multiple 40k factions. When 7th, IG and Spacewolves all dropped in a 2 month span, I peaced out.

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4 minutes ago, Baaa said:

??

True if you only have one faction and no more ships than the upgrades allow for.

Cheers 

Baaa 

Space Marines are one faction so yes it is a fair comparison. And if you have more than what the conversion kit covers hit up ebay or sell off the extra ships. There is no situation where a player should buy more than a single conversion kit for a faction.

Edited by Tooka-cat

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2 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Woe unto you if you got suckered by the Ally chart in 6th into multiple 40k factions. When 7th, IG and Spacewolves all dropped in a 2 month span, I peaced out.

I've only ever played Space Marines, so after a certain point, around 2004, I only ever needed to buy the models I liked and the new rulebook and codex.

However, I have to confess that I'mnot overly impressed with the fact that my Master of the Forge is now a Techmarine ?

Cheers 

Baaa 

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Just now, Baaa said:

I've only ever played Space Marines, so after a certain point, around 2004, I only ever needed to buy the models I liked and the new rulebook and codex.

However, I have to confess that I'mnot overly impressed with the fact that my Master of the Forge is now a Techmarine ?

Cheers 

Baaa 

Space marines hardly counted, as the same models could be counts-as for half the imperium.

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9 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Man just buying a Warhammer rulebook + updated codex ran for as much

Much more if you wanted hardcover

The backlash to X wing 2.0 is perhaps the biggest kneejerk, though 

 

Not in my country, hardcover rulebook (well actual rules are free, book is largely lore and expanded rules) two small soft cover codex, dice, 53 miniatures is $190-$200, if you wanted a full hard cover codex on top of that it's another $60.

Age of Sigmar, with rules, lore book, 47 miniatures is $140-$160, an extra battletome hardcover book would be around $60-$70.

Now X-Wing 2E for starter is $65 and 2 conversion kits are another $150, this would net me 3 new minatures for $215.

I don't get your comparison, value is definitely higher in the Warhammer boxes.

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5 minutes ago, Tooka-cat said:

Space Marines are one faction so yes it is a fair comparison. And if you have more than what the conversion kit covers hit up ebay or sell off the extra ships. There is no situation where a player should buy more than a single conversion kit for a faction.

How many players on these forums only have 1 faction? 

Apart from me. 

I'd put money on that for the vast majority of players it isn't a fair comparison. 

Cheers 

Baaa

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7 minutes ago, Baaa said:

??

True if you only have one faction and no more ships than the upgrades allow for.

Cheers 

Baaa 

you could have more than one 40k army too. And having multiple factions or switching factions in 40k was way more difficult and expensive than in X-wing.

Yeah I know the 40k was an easy target but then again the OP should have chosen a better title that doesn't get so easily debunked. I am not on board with the 40k hate either. Myself, like many others, had our start in table top miniatures with 40k. I left it for X-wing around the same time many other 40k players did and likely for many of the same reason (cheaper buy in and updates, simpler rules). Granted I heard that 40k has became a lot better but I am already invested in X-wing and 1 miniature games is all that many to us can fit into our budgets.

I understand the resistance to 2.0 (pun not intended). I will say that before this I put X-wing collecting on pause because of some decisions made with 1st edition. Now it seems like a great time to get back, or it might be the best time to move back into 40k, who knows. So far it seems like the plan is good but it is too soon to tell about execution. Time will tell if this is the right move, or if it is time to switch to a new (or old) game.

Edited by Marinealver

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1 minute ago, Baaa said:

How many players on these forums only have 1 faction? 

Apart from me. 

I'd put money on that for the vast majority of players it isn't a fair comparison. 

Cheers 

Baaa

How many 6th edition players wernt using both Eldar and Tau at the same time? Or Space Marines and Tau? Or chaos marines and chaos demons?

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7 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

How many 6th edition players wernt using both Eldar and Tau at the same time? Or Space Marines and Tau? Or chaos marines and chaos demons?

Me and the vast majority of the people I played against. The big difference was that I've never been a Codex hopper so after a point 40k was never an expensive game for me.

X-Wing is a completely different beast. To play competitively I had to buy ships or upgrades from all three factions to keep up with the Joneses. That was my choice, and I accept that. 

X-Wing at the competitive level  (and to a lesser degree casual play) is designed as a "codex hopping" game. 

The cost of converting to 2nd edition will depend on whether an individual wants to or can afford to buy the necessary kits and how many ships of each faction they own.

Cheers 

Baaa 

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6 minutes ago, Baaa said:

Me and the vast majority of the people I played against. The big difference was that I've never been a Codex hopper so after a point 40k was never an expensive game for me.

X-Wing is a completely different beast. To play competitively I had to buy ships or upgrades from all three factions to keep up with the Joneses. That was my choice, and I accept that. 

X-Wing at the competitive level  (and to a lesser degree casual play) is designed as a "codex hopping" game. 

The cost of converting to 2nd edition will depend on whether an individual wants to or can afford to buy the necessary kits and how many ships of each faction they own.

Cheers 

Baaa 

Correction. X-Wing WAS a codex hopping game. It is not any longer. That is a fundamental change with 2nd edition. You are not expected to keep up with five factions. Nor the likely SEVEN factions that they may end up with. 

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