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X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 10:19 AM, Tbetts94 said:

When the game was released in 2012, the Y-Wing cost the same at $15, that $15 is about $17 with inflation. So $3 more really for a better model that you don’t actually have to buy since you have the other models.

EVERY small ship will require $20.  I maintain that a 33% price mark-up is unjustified.

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28 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

EVERY small ship will require $20.  I maintain that a 33% price mark-up is unjustified.


Well, as a consumer you have the ability (and one might even argue the fiscal responsibility) to decide what goods/services to purchase at what prices.  If you believe the X-Wing game products are no longer worth their price tag to you, then you can vote with your wallet.  These aren't foods or medicine or postal services, these are free market luxury items.  They are worth whatever an individual consumer is willing to pay for them, and if they aren't worth $20 to you than certainly don't buy them.  Personally, I've skipped plenty of 1.0 products I felt were not "worth it" to my own collection or gaming experience, and I've certainly skipped plenty of other games because of price tags I didn't feel would warrant the enjoyment I'd get from owning them.

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1 hour ago, Aaron Foss said:

I mean, that's not what I said, but yes, it is indeed true. Just like any other game that has had multiple sequels or editions, if people prefer earlier versions, they have the means and ability to continue playing them. Look at the Smash community, for example.

Also, I am fairly sure that you are trying to be insulting by appending "Obama" to my name, but you have missed the mark by miles if you think that's an insult.

That's... not any different than any other game that exists now or ever will exist. Did you think that you were somehow entitled to force people who prefer one game to play one of your choosing instead?

I still love old editions of a lot of games (Mechwarrior 2nd edition, for example), but if people don't want to play them with me because newer versions are more common / they prefer them, that's not some kind of grave injustice being done to me by the publisher. Games are, by their nature, a consensual activity - if people don't want to play, they don't have to.

There's nothing 'smug' about looking at a new set of rules and saying "yeah, that looks better than what I currently have. I will definitely play that when it comes out vs. the current version that doesn't have those improvements".

They sold you a product. Nowhere in that product was there any kind of legally or morally binding assurance that they would never improve, alter, or re-release that product. FFG isn't going to come to your house and take your stuff away. Everything you bought is entirely valid for any opportunity to play that you find with others who also want to play that game with you - which is precisely that same as it has ever been.

There are still people playing every version of Dungeons and Dragons that has ever been printed.

Your issues with your interpretation of another company's business model has nothing to do with this game or company.

I have no contempt here. You, on the other hand sure seem awfully angry, and definitely like you are trying to start a fight or insult me.

The only way I want people to play a game is in the way(s) that they and their play group finds the most fun. As long as everyone is having a good time, they're doing it right.

Yes, I do know how games retail works. No, I am not an employee of FFG or ANA. "Corporate secrets and godlike knowledge"? hardly. I just talk to people in the industry and know (roughly) what a box like a conversion kit costs to put together from conception to production. In addition to that, I have worked in the industry. This stuff is hardly secret knowledge... actually it's pretty easy to come by.

You can doubt your overblown, hyperbolic interpretation of what I said all you like - it has no bearing on the facts.

People being excited for new versions of things that they love are not "shills" or "fanboys". They are people excited to see something they love being addressed with fixes or changes that they feel are an improvement to that thing. The only "chiding" I have seen is of people who are making factually incorrect or realistically impossible claims about pricing and release methods. Everything else has been excitement for the changes and possible future options, or an encouragement to continue playing the first edition if that is what will make one happy.

I was going to address your points, but the truth is, the gap is probably unbridgeable.  One side loves edition changes and feels superior to everyone who is "afraid of change", the other side resents being either compelled to pay to keep on playing at all, or being deprived of most of their opportunities to play their chosen game.  East is east, and west is west, and you know the rest of the quote.

All I know is that I was on the fence about 2.0 until I saw the conversion unboxings and read the boards, and now I'm inclined to not want to go forward with it.

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37 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

I was going to address your points, but the truth is, the gap is probably unbridgeable.  One side loves edition changes and feels superior to everyone who is "afraid of change", the other side resents being either compelled to pay to keep on playing at all, or being deprived of most of their opportunities to play their chosen game.  East is east, and west is west, and you know the rest of the quote.

All I know is that I was on the fence about 2.0 until I saw the conversion unboxings and read the boards, and now I'm inclined to not want to go forward with it.

See ya

 

Can I have your stuff?  Since it's worthless and all now

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44 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

All I know is that I was on the fence about 2.0 until I saw the conversion unboxings and read the boards, and now I'm inclined to not want to go forward with it.

 

What about the unboxing has tilted you against the upgrade?

I was very happy with the value, but am curious about those who did not feel that way.

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43 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:

I was going to address your points, but the truth is, the gap is probably unbridgeable.  One side loves edition changes and feels superior to everyone who is "afraid of change", the other side resents being either compelled to pay to keep on playing at all, or being deprived of most of their opportunities to play their chosen game.  East is east, and west is west, and you know the rest of the quote.

All I know is that I was on the fence about 2.0 until I saw the conversion unboxings and read the boards, and now I'm inclined to not want to go forward with it.

While I agree that the gap is probably unbridgeable, part of the reason is the view of the other side. Your description of those who are for the second edition seems intent on vilifying those who don't share your concerns rather than to actually portray another view point. I understand that you are not in favor of 2E and you have every right hold that opinion. And I'm not gonna claim the description you used doesn't hold true for some. But classifying the entire opposing view point in that way is inaccurate and disingenuous.

I, for one, do not "love edition changes". It's troublesome, leaves some people behind, and costs money. But I do think this edition changes is worth the hassle and finically commitment. Change is scary, but it also has potential to create something good as well. I do not feel superior to anybody who has looked at what 2nd edition is offering and decided for themselves that it doesn't have enough value for them. Their time, their money, their decision. I have made mine to buy into 2nd edition and I have yet to feel any sort of regret for it. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is the people who are fine with second edition are more like you than you think. And that maybe the gap you mentioned is artificially made.

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19 minutes ago, Icelom said:

What about the unboxing has tilted you against the upgrade?

I was very happy with the value, but am curious about those who did not feel that way.

I want to add my personal perspective here, with no intent to keep the back-and-forth going.

My rebel collection, off the top of my head, is this:

7-8 X Wings

4 B Wings

3 Y Wings

4 A Wings

2 Headhunters

1 Falcon

1 HWK 290

1 U Wing

 

So if I buy one conversion kit, the components I will pay for but not need are:

2 ARC 170s,

2 Auzitucks

2 E Wings

2 Ghosts

1 HWK 290

1 Falcon

2 K Wings

4 Phantom shuttles

2 Sabine's TIE

2 YT 2400

2 Headhunters.

So that's more than half the content that has no value to me.

However, the kit ALSO only covers half of my collection. I will still have 10+ ships not covered, and once you factor in the price of parted-out conversion kits or third party bits, it's almost guaranteed to be cheaper to just buy a second conversion kit.

My Imperial collection is pretty much the same. 

Also factor in that living in a country town will make it harder to swap conversion kits, plus the necessary hassle in arranging swaps, plus the fact that living in Australia makes it harder to post individual conversion kits, AND factor in that the conversion kits here are more expensive (retail, converted back to US dollars is $60-65 a kit, not $50) AND factor in that the kits I need are going to be among the most sought after kits, while the ones I have excess of are likely to be the more common kits available.

So for the FIRST conversion kit I'm paying $60 for $25 worth of components.

But then I need a SECOND conversion kit, for which I will get duplicates of all the upgrade cards (which see diminishing returns) and now I'm looking at paying $120, for $45 worth of cardboard.

And that's just for my rebels.

If we include the Imperials and the core set, then to enjoy the same freedom of squad building that I do right now, I will be required to pay $290, and while I will get three models for that price, I will only be getting $140 of value from that purchase. Because there will be duplicates of a LOT of stuff that I don't need and shortfalls for a lot of stuff I do need.

So that's why the upgrade kits are not good value to me.

And of course there's the other factor that no one is talking about, which is the price of all small base ships increasing by a third.

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I want to add my personal perspective here, with no intent to keep the back-and-forth going.

My rebel collection, off the top of my head, is this:

7-8 X Wings

4 B Wings

3 Y Wings

4 A Wings

2 Headhunters

1 Falcon

1 HWK 290

1 U Wing

 

So if I buy one conversion kit, the components I will pay for but not need are:

2 ARC 170s,

2 Auzitucks

2 E Wings

2 Ghosts

1 HWK 290

1 Falcon

2 K Wings

4 Phantom shuttles

2 Sabine's TIE

2 YT 2400

2 Headhunters.

So that's more than half the content that has no value to me.

However, the kit ALSO only covers half of my collection. I will still have 10+ ships not covered, and once you factor in the price of parted-out conversion kits or third party bits, it's almost guaranteed to be cheaper to just buy a second conversion kit.

My Imperial collection is pretty much the same. 

Also factor in that living in a country town will make it harder to swap conversion kits, plus the necessary hassle in arranging swaps, plus the fact that living in Australia makes it harder to post individual conversion kits, AND factor in that the conversion kits here are more expensive (retail, converted back to US dollars is $60-65 a kit, not $50) AND factor in that the kits I need are going to be among the most sought after kits, while the ones I have excess of are likely to be the more common kits available.

So for the FIRST conversion kit I'm paying $60 for $25 worth of components.

But then I need a SECOND conversion kit, for which I will get duplicates of all the upgrade cards (which see diminishing returns) and now I'm looking at paying $120, for $45 worth of cardboard.

And that's just for my rebels.

If we include the Imperials and the core set, then to enjoy the same freedom of squad building that I do right now, I will be required to pay $290, and while I will get three models for that price, I will only be getting $140 of value from that purchase. Because there will be duplicates of a LOT of stuff that I don't need and shortfalls for a lot of stuff I do need.

So that's why the upgrade kits are not good value to me.

And of course there's the other factor that no one is talking about, which is the price of all small base ships increasing by a third.

 

 

 

You are in an unfortunate position with how your collection breaks down.

While the kits are extremely good for someone with my collection breakdown (multiples of ever ship) I do feel for people with collections like yours.

Ffg is in a awkward position the smaller the kits the more expensive it gets per ship and people with my collection end up paying more, however with larger kits people with small or "not even" collections end up paying more. 

Kind of sucks but not everyone can win. All I can say is sorry and I empathize, however I am also glad the kits are not setup to handle your collection as that would most likely adversely effect me. I guess I won the lottery on 2.0 kit conversion I am mostly just going to just have a few extra large ships. 

Nothing I can say or do to help. Thank you for honestly laying out your reasoning without added hyperbole. 

If it helps at all it's still probably cheaper then if they had done individual ship conversion kits.

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36 minutes ago, Icelom said:

 

If it helps at all it's still probably cheaper then if they had done individual ship conversion kits.

Didn't they say that future waves will also contain card-only packs for those who already own the re-released ships? So by my understanding they will do individual packs, just not right now. 

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21 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Didn't they say that future waves will also contain card-only packs for those who already own the re-released ships? So by my understanding they will do individual packs, just not right now. 

All I could find was a reference to 'an alternative upgrade/conversion path'. To quote K2SO, I find that answer vague and unconvincing.

But seriously, I'm just going to start with one of each conversion kit and a core, and see how it goes from there. Maybe the post market swaps will be easier than I'm thinking, maybe the 'alternative upgrade path' will be easy and cheap, maybe I'll be able to proxy more than I'm thinking (apparently the T65 X Wing dial is the same as the current T70 dial so maybe I can get a bunch of cheap T70 dials. I've got two T70s and I'll be getting two dials in the conversion kit so there's four to start with)

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6 hours ago, SOTL said:

At my company we talk a lot about the value equation.  It's ok to be expensive if people feel they get something worthwhile.

If you want to play x-wing enough then 2.0 is a bargain.  If you don't want to play x-wing enough then play something else.


This is pretty much it.

I've had plenty of games I've given up.  When Warhammer Fantasy switched to 6th Edition and invalidated a large chunk of my 5th Edition stuff, I bailed on the game and sold what I had.  With X-Wing, not only will I be sticking with it but I am, overall, excited that X-Wing is getting such a facelift.  One big difference, though, is I have gotten X-Wing onto the table a lot more often than I ever did with Warhammer, and my fun-per-dollar value as a consumer has been much much higher with X-Wing than WHFB.  But that's a purely subjective and individual thing, and I wouldn't fault anyone who stuck with WHFB into 6th Ed, not would I fault anyone who got out of X-Wing with the 2.0 shift.  To each their own, only individuals can make those choices and there is no objectively right or wrong thing to do.  I don't know why we, as a community, have such a hard time understanding and respecting that.

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 11:33 PM, SabineKey said:

While I agree that the gap is probably unbridgeable, part of the reason is the view of the other side. Your description of those who are for the second edition seems intent on vilifying those who don't share your concerns rather than to actually portray another view point. I understand that you are not in favor of 2E and you have every right hold that opinion. And I'm not gonna claim the description you used doesn't hold true for some. But classifying the entire opposing view point in that way is inaccurate and disingenuous.

I, for one, do not "love edition changes". It's troublesome, leaves some people behind, and costs money. But I do think this edition changes is worth the hassle and finically commitment. Change is scary, but it also has potential to create something good as well. I do not feel superior to anybody who has looked at what 2nd edition is offering and decided for themselves that it doesn't have enough value for them. Their time, their money, their decision. I have made mine to buy into 2nd edition and I have yet to feel any sort of regret for it. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is the people who are fine with second edition are more like you than you think. And that maybe the gap you mentioned is artificially made.

This guy gets it.

Slanted descriptions of the other side of the debate accomplishes nothing but shutting down any legitimate attempt at said debate.

My opinion is that I see big problems with 1e (and I had to be convinced), and I like what I see so far.  I don't like spending this much money, but at the end of the day it's worth it to me to be able to play what looks like (to me) an improved version of the game. I'd already lost my 1e playing group because of the downslide of the game...I'm actually hoping to get one or two of them back.

For me, it's really no different than my smart phone.  Yeah, I paid a LOT for it, but in a few years I'm going to WANT to replace it with an improved model.  OTOH, I opted not to move forward with the latest version of another game I played (my favorite game for many years) - Warhammer.  Not interested in a skirmish version of my favorite game.  If they move it back to large blocks of regimented troops with the old background, I'll probably jump back in (as long as the rules don't suck).  I spent WAY more on Warhammer than I ever have on X-Wing.  If I didn't view 2e as an upgrade, I might stay at 1e too (though as I said, I no longer have my regular opponents, as they gave up on 1e about a year ago). 

 

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40 minutes ago, elfholme said:

I opted not to move forward with the latest version of another game I played (my favorite game for many years) - Warhammer.  Not interested in a skirmish version of my favorite game.  If they move it back to large blocks of regimented troops with the old background, I'll probably jump back in.

Have you looked at Kings of War? A much better ruleset than WHFB ever was, plus you can port over all your existing WHFB forces and the core rules are free to download.

http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

The gamers edition rulebook contains all the 'extras' missed out on in the free version of the rules (certain monsters and characters, magic items, etc)

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/books/product/kings-of-war-2nd-edition-gamers-rulebook.html

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12 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Have you looked at Kings of War? A much better ruleset than WHFB ever was, plus you can port over all your existing WHFB forces and the core rules are free to download.

http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

The gamers edition rulebook contains all the 'extras' missed out on in the free version of the rules (certain monsters and characters, magic items, etc)

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/books/product/kings-of-war-2nd-edition-gamers-rulebook.html

I'd also look at 9th age it's really well balanced but it does lack heroes, or did last time I checked it's been a while.

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 6:47 PM, madquest8 said:

This is the way I see it.

FFG create a rules system about space dogfights.

They then sell you a new ship every few months, with new upgrades and skills and weapons.. even though the rules don't need any more upgrades or additions. 

Soon they are creating upgrades simply because they HAVE to. They are't necessary, but every new ship must have a new card with it.

Soon the rules are bloated, falling apart because of poor play testing, and even more upgrades keep on coming.

FFG realise that they have screwed the game up by constantly introducing new rules, so decide to reboot the game with a new rules set. which unnecessarily changes lots of things in minor cosmetic ways... so they can charge all the customers in their game £200+

That's right. THEY screw up the rules, then charge YOU £200+ to fix them.

Once they finish counting their wealth, you better believe X-WIng 3.0 is on the way, because every few years they will be doing this again. SO buy your 2.0 stuff fast people, before the 3.0 conversion kits hit the stands.

DISGUSTING! Get out now, while you can...

See you next week then? K

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20 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Have you looked at Kings of War? A much better ruleset than WHFB ever was, plus you can port over all your existing WHFB forces and the core rules are free to download.

http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

The gamers edition rulebook contains all the 'extras' missed out on in the free version of the rules (certain monsters and characters, magic items, etc)

http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/books/product/kings-of-war-2nd-edition-gamers-rulebook.html

I’ve had it suggested to me several times, so may have to give it a try. I like Mantic...just backed their Hellboy KS.

9th Age is probably an option as well, though I think it would be hard to find opponents to play against.

If FFG screws the pooch with 2e, I’m kinda stuck unless there is a fan-made “3rd Age” X-Wing or something. :)

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On 5/27/2018 at 11:36 AM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I've had plenty of games I've given up.  When Warhammer Fantasy switched to 6th Edition and invalidated a large chunk of my 5th Edition stuff, I bailed on the game and sold what I had.  With X-Wing, not only will I be sticking with it but I am, overall, excited that X-Wing is getting such a facelift.  One big difference, though, is I have gotten X-Wing onto the table a lot more often than I ever did with Warhammer, and my fun-per-dollar value as a consumer has been much much higher with X-Wing than WHFB. 

100%!

I have played over a dozen miniatures games that had edition changes that were not worth pursuing. Luckily for me, I have tended to end up on the positive side when ditching a game. WHFB and WH40K lost me after I had to buy into a 3rd/4th edition and I realized I wasn't getting my monies worth for playtime/enjoyment. Only 3 died off that I could not find players for but I wanted to continue playing: Wings of War, Mordheim, and Malifaux.

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On 5/26/2018 at 9:38 PM, Firebird TMK said:

"FFG doesn't owe you anything."  I submit that FFG owes it to its customers not to make it practically impossible to play the game that FFG convinced them to buy in the first place.  BUY.  Not RENT.  Not "Buy it but it has an expiration date that we aren't telling you about."   The same argument applies, a fortiori, to the faceless suits at GW, whose constant money-grabbing was one reason I turned to X-Wing in the first place.

Hey, that's a good point!  It's just like how I really enjoyed Call of Duty:  Black Ops multiplayer, but then they released a new CoD game and the Black Ops multiplayer dried up!  I never signed up for that!  Where's my CoD refund, Treyarch?!

Seriously, though, I don't mind people deciding that the change isn't worth it and that they'd rather not upgrade.  What irritates me is people acting entitled and pouting because a new game isn't being given away for free to players of the current game.  If you're disappointed, that's fine, but it's possible to express your disappointment without accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being a blackhearted rogue.

Edited by JJ48

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39 minutes ago, elfholme said:

9th Age is probably an option as well

If they ever finish their rules
They plan to have the core rules done an autumn, and than doing 3 army books per year

 

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31 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Hey, that's a good point!  It's just like how I really enjoyed Call of Duty:  Black Ops multiplayer, but then they released a new CoD game and the Black Ops multiplayer dried up!  I never signed up for that!  Where's my CoD refund, Treyarch?!

Seriously, though, I don't mind people deciding that the change isn't worth it and that they'd rather not upgrade.  What irritates me is people acting entitled and pouting because a new game isn't being given away for free to players of the current game.  If you're disappointed, that's fine, but it's possible to express your disappointment without accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being a blackhearted rogue.

imagine if X-Wing was like the EA Sports titles... new game every year with very minor adjustments and still charge you full pop. 

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Just now, Wiredin said:

imagine if X-Wing was like the EA Sports titles... new game every year with very minor adjustments and still charge you full pop. 

And filled to the brim with packs full of random upgrades and pilots, and temporary bonuses etc.

'This card gives you a free focus token, but only if you tear it up and never use it again' 

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