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X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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I played against people who did not bother to pull their cards out of their collection and I hated it. 

The cards and the tokens that get placed on them are just as much a part of the game interface as the ships and dials.

this game is pretty costly to convert compared to games that just use a single book, because this game has awsome components that make playing it very easy.

x-wing is the best performing minitures game on the market for a reason. Part of the reason are the cards and dials.

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2 hours ago, Baaa said:

 

So I've really been complaining needlessly to get my post count up.

Cheers
Baaa

Can confirm, viable strategy

But yes, third party markets and a tiny bit of initiative will keep you from buying whole sets when you just need a few ships more

Also, as we've covered many times, GW is as expensive at face value and FAR more expensive because they're a bunch of power creeping ****s that'll also screw your army composition to force you to buy new things

2.0, at a mere glance, already accomplishes far more than any edition of Warhammer. You can actually see why a complete edition change was necessary, and how the changes feed into the developers' seemingly consistent vision 

It's not just "oh troops suck, let us spam the **** out of them and have only them contest objectives". They've gone through every problem meticulously and set up the groundwork (app) to both balance (initial scaling costs) and tweak the game as needed 

The edition change is expensive (still not as much as Warhammer) but it isn't a cash grab as you can actually see the work put into revamping the game's base components

I've been through enough Warhammer books and editions to know the difference (though at least the art in them tends to be fantastic)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Also, as we've covered many times, GW is as expensive at face value and FAR more expensive because they're a bunch of power creeping ****s that'll also screw your army composition to force you to buy new things


I mean, can we say confidently that FFG is any different?  Going back at least as far as Wave 7 (~2.5 years) the most recent ships and most recent upgrades had a pretty good tendency to define the meta, while early wave pilots and upgrades were generally seen as useless.  In fact, it was one of the biggest critiques of 1.0 -- that the 'new hotness' seemed to always obsolete the original stuff.

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2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I mean, can we say confidently that FFG is any different?  Going back at least as far as Wave 7 (~2.5 years) the most recent ships and most recent upgrades had a pretty good tendency to define the meta, while early wave pilots and upgrades were generally seen as useless.  In fact, it was one of the biggest critiques of 1.0 -- that the 'new hotness' seemed to always obsolete the original stuff.

Not really

We can confidently say FFG was incompetent as you never had to buy anything past wave 8 (El jumpmaster) to be competitive

Until they FINALLY got off their asses and errated it 

That and the early wave stuff was horribly balanced from the get go, but for years you still could play "fixed" soontir and Vader (and still play the lambda) 

Problem there is having to hunt for cards...which they've already confirmed you won't have to do in 2.0 as it's packaged in the kits plus shipless upgrade kits in future waves 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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6 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


...the fourth time.  Those first three times they only got half off their ***, I suppose, with a half-assed errata.

 

They only errated it once

Everything else was upgrade cards

And ofc when they errated it will still got some crazy whinging about it

No real way to win 

Except in 2.0, where they're starting right out the gate with a now red barrelroll 

One of the biggest things about 2.0 is that the designers actually seem to have learned from their mistakes, going by their interviews + the previewed mechanics falling in line with countering the 1.0 experience

of course, I personally don't have enough faith in anything to pre-order, but the initial view is promising. Undoubtedly, I'll eventually end up buying a core + a single kit (which kit depends on which previews look neat) before seeing if it's worth investing more.

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I mean, can we say confidently that FFG is any different?  Going back at least as far as Wave 7 (~2.5 years) the most recent ships and most recent upgrades had a pretty good tendency to define the meta, while early wave pilots and upgrades were generally seen as useless.  In fact, it was one of the biggest critiques of 1.0 -- that the 'new hotness' seemed to always obsolete the original stuff.

I dont think thats exactly fair to R2D2, (core set), Darth Vader (X1 in Imperial Raider) Biggs (Integrated astro in t70), c3p0 or Wes Janson (tantive). Att these pilots and upgrades affected the meta well after they stopped being the new hotness.

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3 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

I dont think thats exactly fair to R2D2, (core set), Darth Vader (X1 in Imperial Raider) Biggs (Integrated astro in t70), c3p0 or Wes Janson (tantive). Att these pilots and upgrades affected the meta well after they stopped being the new hotness.


Hence why I said "generally"

For every Biggs & Wes there was a Rookie Pilot, Red Squad Pilot, Tarn Mison, Hobbie Klivian, Garven Dreis, Jek Porkins, and Luke Skywalker...

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18 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Say I have four X Wings. I buy Saw's Renegades (I won't. Why would I with a new edition on the way?)

Maybe because it has new pilots and upgrades?  And includes 2.0 stuff...

18 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

and I buy a core, and I buy a conversion kit. Now I can field four X Wings. But I still have two that don't have dials or bases or cards. A third of my models are still locked behind a paywall, despite spending $130 already.

$130 is not enough? They want MORE before I can even use the four lousy X Wings I have already?

How do people think that's a good deal? 

And that's not to mention my four B wings, my four Y Wings, my four A wings...

If you don't care about saw's renegades and you have a whole bunch of ships for rebel that you could (and want to) run that many of, that's when you start getting to where a second conversion kit makes sense.

18 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

But those aren't equivalent. There won't be a special "extra page" for my codex included in the Primaris box. There won't be upgrades that add benefit to my entire army, that I can only get access to buy either buying the new models or buying a further upgrade kit (depending on what FFG's "alternative conversion path" actually is). That's why I equate buying more models with having to buy a codex. Because the codex is a final, total list of all units and upgrades available to your faction. FFG will add more units and upgrades to your faction over the course of 2.0's lifetime, and if you want to have the same equivalency as 40K (access to every unit and every upgrade) then you need to keep buying.

If you want access to every unit for 40k you have to keep buying said units as well.  You might be able to argue about upgrades, but models themselves aren't really any different between the two.  If you want to play a model, you have to buy it.  Sure, the core rules for x-wing might not give you all the pilot info and stats for an RZ-2 A-wing for when it releases, but you'd have to buy the model anyway to play one, and you'll get all those "rules" for it when you buy it.

17 hours ago, Sithborg said:

Don't be dismissive. I love flying 3 Defenders or 3/4 Advanced. So, yes, in order to play these fun squads, I have to shell out for more cardboard than I need. And that is frustrating. And I am sure it is frustrating for others. 

Or buy your 2-3 conversions second hand instead of wasting money on an entire conversion kit for 2-3 ships.  Or ****, buy that second conversion kit and break up the rest of it and sell the conversions.  You can probably make your money back, maybe more, with the stuff you aren't using.

15 hours ago, General Kenobi's Chicken said:

The decimal numeracy for all this was the first flag for me. Point-oh. Point-oh. Point-oh. To our post-digital brains that sounds nice. Yeah. It is the same software but better. I’ll walk away from the computer while the patches do their thing. This is not 2.0. This is a different game. This is Wimbledon with larger tennis balls and longer courts. A better game? Likely if you like blood! But the same game? No. No. It is not the same game. It is not 2.0. It is a different game. It is a different software package, not a version. The point-oh was clever. Very clever.

What does this actually have to do with anything?  Calling it 2.0 instead of second edition doesn't really change much.  If anything, a new software version strengthens the arguments of people saying that FFG isn't price gouging and is doing their best to help transition veterans to the "new game" instead of just saying "too bad, we're starting over, have fun buying all the new models"

15 hours ago, General Kenobi's Chicken said:

And yet flag three: is personal. Cooler miniatures. I won’t even mention the x-wing. The y-wing? Yeah the new y-wing is pretty cool. FFG is trying to reel me in with my love of miniature coolness. Well it might just work. But something tells me they knew they should sweeten the medicine to make it go down easy. Cause without the cool miniatures, this new game would be tough to stomach. For the fans of the other game anyway.

I disagree.  I'd be entirely happy with the new game without any updated models.  They could easily have left the x-wing, y-wing, and fang as they were and I'd have bought in whole-heartedly.  The new miniatures aren't what make 2e good or worthwhile.  The updated and much better rules and easier way to balance the game are.

15 hours ago, General Kenobi's Chicken said:

This is a new game for new players. I’m sure it will thrive. But I can’t help but smell a fault. This new game is not so much a fix as it is a second harvest.

And yet it fixes and gives us pretty much everything that veterans wanted/was needed to make the game massively more balanced.

7 hours ago, Jike said:

This is the real crux of the debate, I think. You realise both sides of that statement are true? One side of the argument is looking at the 30 or 40 playable ships and thinking "seems pretty good to me", while the other side is concerned with the 10-20 ships they now can't use and seeing that as a loss.

The thing I can't wrap my head around is people complaining they need another kit to run their 3 Defenders, or X of whatever, before we even see the points values or any other details of those ships. For all we know the conversion kits might actually match very closely to what will be able to be used in the standard 200/6 game.

The points for most ships aren't likely to be vastly different from what they are now.  PWT ships will probably change the most, or any ships that get massive overhauls.  but the ships we know of work out to about half a list worth in each conversion kit (we know you can run 8 tie fighters still, they've said the goal is to limit it to 4 x-wings again.  Defenders would have to get a MASSIVE buff to not be able to run 3.  Or a significant nerf to be able to run 4).

On the other hand, from the couple survey's i've done, the only large outliers where the kits don't cover enough for most people are the x-wing and tie fighter, each of which average about 1 higher than what you get in the kit.  And both of which you also get copies of in the core set.

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14 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

What does this actually have to do with anything?  Calling it 2.0 instead of second edition doesn't really change much. 

Not that it matters, but I think we're the ones calling it 2.0.  Don't their announcements/packaging say 2nd edition?

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6 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Not that it matters, but I think we're the ones calling it 2.0.  Don't their announcements/packaging say 2nd edition?

I know.  he's talking about the people in favor of the conversion kits calling it 2.0, and pointing out it's basically a new game.  I'm asking what it really matters what we call it (I go back and forth between 2.0 and 2e), and am saying that calling it a new game only makes the conversion kits a better deal, since they could easily have made everyone start over copmletely.

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5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

One of the biggest things about 2.0 is that the designers actually seem to have learned from their mistakes,

From the interviews and demos, it does not look like they have learned from their mistakes, but rather just fixed them. Huge difference, because we might see the same mistakes at different places in the game again. They still don't seem to be very good at their own game, nor being able to judge the worth of cards and combos. 

The only thing they have learned from the past is that a big *** FAQ is not the way to please the crowd, so they included an app to deliver fixes to the player population. This solves their lack of mathematical model at least somewhat. Something like Wolfpack style lists  can be fixed easily this way. Something like turrets or bombs pushing out whole archetypes might become a thing again when new mechanics are introduced ... might become problematic.  But hey, I am an optimist, I think we will get with X-Wing 2.0 the best possible X-Wing. Just like my green dice give me on average the best possible result. ?

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5 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

From the interviews and demos, it does not look like they have learned from their mistakes, but rather just fixed them. Huge difference, because we might see the same mistakes at different places in the game again. They still don't seem to be very good at their own game, nor being able to judge the worth of cards and combos. 

The only thing they have learned from the past is that a big *** FAQ is not the way to please the crowd, so they included an app to deliver fixes to the player population. This solves their lack of mathematical model at least somewhat. Something like Wolfpack style lists  can be fixed easily this way. Something like turrets or bombs pushing out whole archetypes might become a thing again when new mechanics are introduced ... might become problematic.  But hey, I am an optimist, I think we will get with X-Wing 2.0 the best possible X-Wing. Just like my green dice give me on average the best possible result. ?

This makes no sense...

How did they fix them if they did not learn from them? also wtf does any of that mean?

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17 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Do you see what I mean? People look at GW prices and go "Oh ho ho, how ridiculous, who would pay that sort of silly money?!"

Then they look at the SAME PRICES from FFG and go "Oh my, what a wonderful deal! Such good value!"

It's insane.

I did use GW as a comparison. That doesn't mean the upgrade kits don't represent good value. What would you have FFG do? A half arsed job at 'X-Wing 1.5' instead of giving it a good going over? Hand out the upgrade parts for free? Yeah, they are going to make some money out of this, and yeah, I considered if it was worth upgrading or bailing now. I decided the upgrade is worth it. You may have come to a different conclusion, but it doesn't make other's wrong kiddo.

Quote

EDIT: Anyway, the conversation is going in circles. I'm out.

Bye.

Image result for goodbye star wars gif

 

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11 hours ago, JJ48 said:

This is just flat-out false!  Not one single ship from your entire collection will cease to be playable in 1.0!  And as long as you keep your 1.0 components, even converting your ships won't make them cease to be playable in 1.0.  Rather, you'll now have some of your ships able to be played in two games (even if one of the games will no longer be officially supported)!

Look, either the price is worth it to you or it's not.  If the price is worth it, it's not a price gouge, it's economics.  If the price isn't worth it to you, then buying it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Seriously.  If this really is as bad a deal as you seem to think it is, you would have to be an utter fool to go along with it.  If all your posts have been sincere, then honestly you'll be much better off just being like Carl, saving your money, and just sticking to playing 1.0.

Problem is you will run fast out of players for 1.0.

 

Yes you could play 1.0 at home. But for me as an example, 2 of my kids go to the local club where they're converting to 2.0, so we would have to have 2 different rulesets in parallel. That's a recipe for desaster, esp with kids playing.

FFG also in a smart way saved themselves the hassle of having to find new ships. Because a lot of pilots disappear (most ships will have 4 pilots, that's quite a downgrade, as some ships have lots of different pilots). And no, not only the crappy pilots will disappear, but also a lot of middle ground ones, which are fun in non-hard-core-tourney-play or casual stuff. FFG will certainly release new cool pilots for existing ships, forcing you to buy the again x-th piece of a model you already have lots of 1.0 models of, in order to get these shiny (rereleased) pilots. 

It's also a bitter pill, that Epic is discontinued in 2.0 for at least a year, probably much longer (or even forever?).

For my collection I would have to invest almost 48% of original value again to have all playable for the members of family who play. I guess I have to convert slowly.

 

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On 5/16/2018 at 8:40 AM, Chucknuckle said:

And that's my point. We can quibble for weeks over which is the most expensive (and I still maintain FFG has surpassed GW in that regard) but the fact no one can argue with is that the two are comparable. They are like for like. It's not comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing apples and apples. They're essentially the same. FFG didn't die as a hero, and has now lived long enough to see itself become the villain. It is no better than the evil GW bogeyman and in some cases it is worse. FFG can proudly step onto the podium and share first place with GW, although it's hardly a title they should be glad to have earned...

*Looks at six editions of outdated and useless rulebooks and codexes for 40K on the shelf...

*Looks at the case of Warhammer miniatures sitting gathering dust after Fantasy was killed off and replaced with a horrible game...

*Remembers my mate's collection of several editions of outdated Dungeons and Dragons rules and sourcebooks...

*Thinks of another mate's Descent collection....

*Laughs uproariously...

 

Image result for you're wrong star wars gif

Edited by Rat of Vengence

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6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I've been through enough Warhammer books and editions to know the difference (though at least the art in them tends to be fantastic)

I hope you're not talking about that John Blanche rubbish that looks like someone threw up on a canvas..

"Blanchitsu" my ****

Edited by FTS Gecko
Utter contempt

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15 hours ago, Managarmr said:

Problem is you will run fast out of players for 1.0.

 

Yes you could play 1.0 at home. But for me as an example, 2 of my kids go to the local club where they're converting to 2.0, so we would have to have 2 different rulesets in parallel. That's a recipe for desaster, esp with kids playing.

FFG also in a smart way saved themselves the hassle of having to find new ships. Because a lot of pilots disappear (most ships will have 4 pilots, that's quite a downgrade, as some ships have lots of different pilots). And no, not only the crappy pilots will disappear, but also a lot of middle ground ones, which are fun in non-hard-core-tourney-play or casual stuff. FFG will certainly release new cool pilots for existing ships, forcing you to buy the again x-th piece of a model you already have lots of 1.0 models of, in order to get these shiny (rereleased) pilots. 

It's also a bitter pill, that Epic is discontinued in 2.0 for at least a year, probably much longer (or even forever?).

For my collection I would have to invest almost 48% of original value again to have all playable for the members of family who play. I guess I have to convert slowly.

 

Understood.  However, that's a problem with any game that ends, and has nothing to do with the conversion kits, which is what people seem to be griping about the most.  

I've seen the end of several games that I really enjoyed playing and had invested a lot of money in.  Star Wars CCG, Lord of the Rings CCG, Legend of the Five Rings CCG...  I totally get people being upset.  I don't get people looking at the new game, seeing an opportunity for old players to buy-in for much cheaper than it would cost them to start from scratch, and then ranting about how a good deal should be made much better.  I know if FFG had announced that they were going to honor AEG's koku, and allow you to buy starters of the L5R LCG for 500 koku each, I certainly wouldn't be complaining that, "they're only really worth 250 koku!"

Edited by JJ48

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1 hour ago, Managarmr said:

FFG also in a smart way saved themselves the hassle of having to find new ships. Because a lot of pilots disappear (most ships will have 4 pilots, that's quite a downgrade, as some ships have lots of different pilots). And no, not only the crappy pilots will disappear, but also a lot of middle ground ones, which are fun in non-hard-core-tourney-play or casual stuff. FFG will certainly release new cool pilots for existing ships, forcing you to buy the again x-th piece of a model you already have lots of 1.0 models of, in order to get these shiny (rereleased) pilots. 

Except you WON'T have to buy new models to get the new pilots for them, as they said repeatedly on stream at worlds during the challenge games.

1 hour ago, Managarmr said:

It's also a bitter pill, that Epic is discontinued in 2.0 for at least a year, probably much longer (or even forever?).

They also said epic would be updated as well.  Not immeidately, no, but the "or even forever" is just trying to make things sound bad.

 

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3 hours ago, Henshini said:

1) To all those who are quitting, can I have your stuff?

2) Are you saying replacing all the cardboard for one of your ships isn't worth $1.5 ~ $2? Seems like a pretty good deal to me, and I won't even max out the 2 conversion kits I'm getting. 


Then can I have your extra conversion kit materials?

 

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19 hours ago, Aaron Foss said:

Dear everyone who feels that the conversion kit prices are "too high" or "unfair":

You bought a game and some number of components for that game. You got exactly what you paid for, and you still have it. There is a new game coming out based on that original game, and the company producing it is very clearly making an effort to allow people who spent money on the first version capable of moving over some/all of their investment at a staggeringly lower cost than buying it all over again. They didn't have to do that - they did it because it made sense on any number of business standpoints .

You haven't lost anything. The game and the expansions you bought are still exactly what they were before - a game and pieces for that game.

FFG doesn't owe you anything. You got what you paid for. If you want to play their new game, they expect you to pay for it. If you bought content for the old game, they are giving you an option to update all of that old content for a drastically reduced cost compared to buying the new pieces.

X-Wing Second Edition is a new game. The components in the expansions and conversion kits are new. You are screaming about people 'taking' things from you because they aren't giving you, for free, something you never had

You cry about how terribly expensive the conversion kits are, but I have yet to see a single person who has said that ever come close to understanding the costs involved. Do you actually have even the vaguest notion of what is costs to produce (design, develop, print, ship, distribute, etc.) a new game plus what is essentially 5 years worth of expansion content? I didn't think so.

Here's a little experiment for you: take a look at an average $50 MSRP hobby strategy game on the shelves at your FLGS and think about how many cards and how much punch board there is in that box (the back of the box will usually give you these numbers), then compare it to what is in one conversion kit for X-Wing Second Edition. $50 USD is staggeringly cheap for what is included in the conversion kits.

"But these other companies gave away their rules for free and I didn't have to change anything! They even sent me a picture of a kitten! That's proof that FFG is overcharging for things!"

This kind of argument is phenomenally blind to the realities of how a business functions. FFG's operational, development, material, and production/distributions costs are all contributing factors in how much they have to (yes, have to) charge for a product. Other companies produce different games for different audiences at drastically different costs and with distribution models that aren't even remotely comparable.

The game that FFG produces in this case is one that is based not only on plastic, pre-painted miniatures, but on having unique card and punch board components for each individual miniature. That means that each 'piece' for the game has all of those things, and that sets the cost of using those pieces at a certain threshold. This is not "greedy" or "gouging", this is simply the reality of the game and the components it is played with. It always has been.

"FFG is forcing me to spend 300 dollars! They should just make per-ship upgrade kits and sell them for 5 bucks!"

No, you are choosing to do that. You say you "need" an entire conversion kit just for 4 TIE Fighters, a TIE Defender and a Gunboat? That still comes to about 8 bucks per ship, or roughly 50% off of retail price. That's also ignoring the option to trade for or buy individual pieces from friends, fellow players, or secondary market dealers (never mind the option to sell excess components you may have). Your pathological need to have new cards and punch board for every single plastic ship you own is entirely on you. You are more than capable of playing a HUGE variety of games and lists with just 1 kit, and you know it.

Individual ship upgrade kits? Oh, my summer child, you really have no idea how retail works. Retailers simply cannot afford - either by square footage or in terms of raw cash outlay - to just carry that many extra SKUs. You're asking your FLGS (the shop that likely operates just barely in the black, if they're lucky) to double the shelf space they have dedicated to X-Wing, and to buy heaps of product in order to fill that shelf space with no safe assumptions to make about the sell-through numbers for each SKU.

Direct distribution from FFG? they haven't got a fraction of the direct distribution pipeline to sell that kind of quantity directly, never mind the added cost associated with doubling the amount of packaging they have to design and produce.

The Bottom Line:

You can choose to buy the new game, or you can not. You can choose to take advantage of the (incredibly generous) option to buy conversion kits instead of some/all of your ships again or you can not. Regardless of your choices, they are your choices, and the company offering you those choices is under absolutely zero obligation - moral, fiscal, or otherwise - to give you different (unrealistic) options because you think the price is 'unfair', or to produce absolutely unworkable 'solutions' that no retailer could hope to support.

I regret that I can only like this once.  Hence I shall quote it too.

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