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Zensyntax

X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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For me, at least, the sting of buying for upgrades didn't really bother me, because I at least got a pretty model. No models with the conversion kit, just a lot of extra cardboard. 

And the Descent conversion kit may not be the best example, as it wasn't the most balanced, and when the rereleased stuff, they made extra changes to the characters and monsters. 

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Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie, Now Now Now! Patience is a virtue that was probably lost in the early 90s. Now everything has to be instant, can't wait for even a little bit. Everyone insisting that your whole collection has to be converted immediately don't even know what they will need in 2.0, we don't know points so we don't even know how many of each ship we would run in our lists. We ignore the fact that every wave will include mini conversion kits for those ships so swarms like a-wings, b-wings and more can be completed with just one conversion kit and x amount of the mini wave conversions as they come out.

Every breakdown I try with the kits and what we know of them shows it as good value

a. each item separately comes down to less than a dollar

b. blisters with the plastic ships value pulled out makes this kit seem insanely cheap

the only semi crap thing i see is the tie fighter, but we don't even know if the swarm will be top tier again and if u are just running the swarm for fun, then 1 emp, 1 reb and the core set will already cover 7 tie fighters, then buy 1 blister, no second conversion kit needed.

Most people in my group don't play epic, why? cause they don't have the money to play. Epic has always been for players who have more disposable income than the rest of the average players. so complaining it will cost u more than others to convert, well its always cost u guys more than the average player to play anyways and we still dont even know what the epic support will be, only that there will be some coming. so like others have mentioned that could be more small conversion kits for swarm ships that epic would need more than the average player.

 

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1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

You don't NEED two of each.  You WANT two of each.  There's a huge difference.

Saying you NEED multiple copies of each conversion kit to play your existing collection in X-Wing 2nd Edition is either a gross exaggeration or a crippling case of OCD at work.

No...if I want to play all of my ships I need two of each and the one kit from the First Order and whatever the New Republic is called. If I only got one kit of each I'd have a ton of ships I could never use.

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21 minutes ago, Skandranon said:

Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie, Now Now Now! Patience is a virtue that was probably lost in the early 90s. Now everything has to be instant, can't wait for even a little bit. Everyone insisting that your whole collection has to be converted immediately don't even know what they will need in 2.0, we don't know points so we don't even know how many of each ship we would run in our lists. We ignore the fact that every wave will include mini conversion kits for those ships so swarms like a-wings, b-wings and more can be completed with just one conversion kit and x amount of the mini wave conversions as they come out.

Every breakdown I try with the kits and what we know of them shows it as good value

a. each item separately comes down to less than a dollar

b. blisters with the plastic ships value pulled out makes this kit seem insanely cheap

the only semi crap thing i see is the tie fighter, but we don't even know if the swarm will be top tier again and if u are just running the swarm for fun, then 1 emp, 1 reb and the core set will already cover 7 tie fighters, then buy 1 blister, no second conversion kit needed.

Most people in my group don't play epic, why? cause they don't have the money to play. Epic has always been for players who have more disposable income than the rest of the average players. so complaining it will cost u more than others to convert, well its always cost u guys more than the average player to play anyways and we still dont even know what the epic support will be, only that there will be some coming. so like others have mentioned that could be more small conversion kits for swarm ships that epic would need more than the average player.

 

This guy gets it.

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2 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

I don't care about their motives. I care about how that influences their choices. Where other games reasonably price their new edition conversions, FFG has taken the opposite route and slapped the highest price they can on the stickers. Any higher and players would start to quit wholesale. They've literally pushed the price as eye-wateringly high as they can without breaking us. 

Say I have four X Wings. I buy Saw's Renegades (I won't. Why would I with a new edition on the way?) and I buy a core, and I buy a conversion kit. Now I can field four X Wings. But I still have two that don't have dials or bases or cards. A third of my models are still locked behind a paywall, despite spending $130 already.

$130 is not enough? They want MORE before I can even use the four lousy X Wings I have already?

How do people think that's a good deal? 

And that's not to mention my four B wings, my four Y Wings, my four A wings...

I spend all this money, the same (if not more) that I would spend going through a GW edition change and half my collection is STILL paywalled.

And I'm supposed to consider this a favour?!

Not if you use power levels. Plenty of people do, because let's face it, it's not like using points actually balances the game!

My point here is that if we're holding GW up as the posterchild of price-gouging, evil tabletop games companies (and many here do) then FFG is just as bad and in some cases they're worse. But apparently we're supposed to consider it a favour to us when FFG does it.

Ok, let's look at two examples:  Andy and Bob.  Both of them hear the 2.0 announcement, and both of them have $100.

Andy decides he wants to start playing X-Wing 2.0, but he doesn't play 1.0.  His $100 will buy him a starter ($40) and three $20 ships.  So he has six ships for his $100.

Bob also decides he wants to start playing X-Wing 2.0, and he already has a fairly extensive 1.0 collection.  His $100 will buy him a starter ($40) and a conversion kit ($50).  So he has 30-40 ships for $90.

Carl also has $100 and an extensive 1.0 collection, but he decides he's not willing to spend the money to start playing 2.0 as well, so he doesn't really figure into this discussion.

So a person with a large amount of 1.0 ships can spend $10 less than a new player and end up with more than five times as many playable ships.  How is that not a good deal?  How is that not an awesome deal?!

 

You keep ranting about how FFG set the price at a point high enough to maximize profits while low enough to entice the most amount of players, as if that's news to the rest of us.  However, isn't that just supply and demand?  As price increases, suppliers want to supply more, but consumers demand less.  The market value is where the supply meets demand.  It's not sleazy; it's not price-gouging; it's just basic microeconomics.

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I’ve been reading these threads for over a week now. And full disclosure: I’m a casual player who has spent somewhere between 2k and 3k on this game. I love this game. I’m happily not moving on to 2.0. But let me just say that the apologists for 2.0 are really an amazingly zealous group of individuals. 

And though this will likely be a skirmish in the wilderness, I really cannot remain silent on this. 

The decimal numeracy for all this was the first flag for me. Point-oh. Point-oh. Point-oh. To our post-digital brains that sounds nice. Yeah. It is the same software but better. I’ll walk away from the computer while the patches do their thing. This is not 2.0. This is a different game. This is Wimbledon with larger tennis balls and longer courts. A better game? Likely if you like blood! But the same game? No. No. It is not the same game. It is not 2.0. It is a different game. It is a different software package, not a version. The point-oh was clever. Very clever.

The second flag for me was not the conversion kits but rather the defense of the conversion kits. People are right to be a bit perturbed about the cost to make their expensive collection relevant again. And the beat downs! Oh gosh has FFG employed goons? Imagine if competitive tennis attempted this conversion: sorry. Your racquet is now officially too small. We need the 2.0 racquet. The apologists: well you only need the larger one when you play Wimbledon. Use your old racquets when you play at home. Oh and the costs? Don’t like the costs? Don’t buy it. Sheesh. Let them eat cake.

And yet flag three: is personal. Cooler miniatures. I won’t even mention the x-wing. The y-wing? Yeah the new y-wing is pretty cool. FFG is trying to reel me in with my love of miniature coolness. Well it might just work. But something tells me they knew they should sweeten the medicine to make it go down easy. Cause without the cool miniatures, this new game would be tough to stomach. For the fans of the other game anyway.

This is a new game for new players. I’m sure it will thrive. But I can’t help but smell a fault. This new game is not so much a fix as it is a second harvest.

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On 5/5/2018 at 7:33 AM, Zensyntax said:

I've played miniature games for more than 20 years, and to my knowledge this is the most expensive version change for a player of a miniature game in the history of miniature games.  Absolute minimum conversion cost of 1 core set and 1 conversion pack = $100, and a conversion cost for someone with a complete set of current ships 1 core set + 5 conversion packs (includes resistance and first order) = $300.  Honestly, has any miniature game ever come close to this type of conversion cost with a version change?  New rule books for a mini game typically cost $40, and that's it.

I couldn't get past this first paragraph. Seriously, it's like you've never heard of Games Workshop or something...

 

Image result for thats not right star wars gif

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22 minutes ago, General Kenobi's Chicken said:

This is not 2.0. This is a different game.

I agree, and this has actually been the basis of many pro-conversion-kit arguments.

22 minutes ago, General Kenobi's Chicken said:

People are right to be a bit perturbed about the cost to make their expensive collection relevant again.

Except that their collections were never not relevant.  They are still perfectly playable in X-Wing 1, which as you yourself pointed out, is a different game.  Your collection is not being held hostage until you pay for it; you're paying to allow you to use one game's components in another game instead of buying the second game's components.

Edited by JJ48

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6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I agree, and this has actually been the basis of many pro-conversion-kit arguments.

Except that their collections were never not relevant.  They are still perfectly playable in X-Wing 1, which as you yourself pointed out, is a different game.  Your collection is not being held hostage until you pay for it; you're paying to allow you to use one game's components in another game instead of buying the second game's components.

Yup. These are good points. Though I am not of the camp, I feel for the camp, however: I’m thinking of the competitive player who has scraped together a 1k collection, felt part of a community, aspired to be a great player, loves all things Star Wars and wants to be up to date and cutting edge in all things x-wing. That player, however small his demographic, is rightfully angry.

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1 minute ago, General Kenobi's Chicken said:

Yup. These are good points. Though I am not of the camp, I feel for the camp, however: I’m thinking of the competitive player who has scraped together a 1k collection, felt part of a community, aspired to be a great player, loves all things Star Wars and wants to be up to date and cutting edge in all things x-wing. That player, however small his demographic, is rightfully angry.

And I can sympathize with people being upset that a game they've invested so much in is coming to an end.  However, the anger at the conversion kits in particular is what confuses me.  Yes, X-Wing is ending, and that's sad.  But FFG is offering a way to get into the replacement at a fraction of what it would cost otherwise.  Why are people so upset about the conversion kits, in particular?

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if you still like first edition that’s cool. 

FFG was under no obligation to support it forever. 

But there are lots of us who have wanted them to fix the game.

I never thought we would actually get this deep a reboot, and I’m extremely glad we have it. 

So yeah if people come in here and harsh the joy of everyone who wanted this there is going to be friction.

It’s in FFG’s best interest to try and do this in a way that keeps as many of their players as possible. 

Being a jerk about our hobbies is pretty weird.

 

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3 hours ago, Sithborg said:

For me, at least, the sting of buying for upgrades didn't really bother me, because I at least got a pretty model. No models with the conversion kit, just a lot of extra cardboard. 

And the Descent conversion kit may not be the best example, as it wasn't the most balanced, and when the rereleased stuff, they made extra changes to the characters and monsters. 

Well I didn't mean so much content as that they will continue to sell that stuff moving forward rather than it just being some limited run. That if someone wanted they don't need to dump all their money at one point, that they could spread it out over relaunch waves or even ask for it for gifts. That or based off how they seem to want to spread the upgrades out evenly (hopefully that lasts) then it could possibly encourage people to just play the one faction that they really want to. 

1 hour ago, General Kenobi's Chicken said:

And yet flag three: is personal. Cooler miniatures. I won’t even mention the x-wing. The y-wing? Yeah the new y-wing is pretty cool. FFG is trying to reel me in with my love of miniature coolness. Well it might just work. But something tells me they knew they should sweeten the medicine to make it go down easy. Cause without the cool miniatures, this new game would be tough to stomach. For the fans of the other game anyway.

And there is really nothing stopping people from buying the brand new ships for 2.0 and then retrofitting that for 1.0. Really, some of the best stuff that has come out for this game has been the fan made stuff, be it HOTAC, Supremacy, the scratch built ships, customs, Mel's Miniatures that are on shapeways. The only real limit is not being able to do competitive, but if you think of X-wing as just a game that gives you the tools to play the game then you can use those same tools to play however you want. Go do something wild and crazy and fun, some kind of campaign that spawns stories you and your gaming group can remember fondly and laugh about or some large blowout battles with everyone's collections being fielded. There is so much more that can be done than just 100 point death matches. And I'm someone looking forward to 2.0. 

3 minutes ago, TylerTT said:

if you still like first edition that’s cool. 

FFG was under no obligation to support it forever. 

But there are lots of us who have wanted them to fix the game.

I never thought we would actually get this deep a reboot, and I’m extremely glad we have it. 

So yeah if people come in here and harsh the joy of everyone who wanted this there is going to be friction.

It’s in FFG’s best interest to try and do this in a way that keeps as many of their players as possible. 

Being a jerk about our hobbies is pretty weird.

Funny thing is that I sort of always imagined they would do a 2.0 at some point likely they had with Descent, but I also felt they likely wouldn't reboot the game until at least after the end of Episode 9. One thing I hope moving forward is that they will either get more info from LFL on pushed ships for the movies or that they can use the excuse of releasing older ships to buy time to do the new ships justice. 

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4 hours ago, SabineKey said:

So, poor quality for cheap. If you want good quality, you have to pay for card stock and have to have a good quality printer to begin with. You also have to factor in ink usuage.

sorry, dude, but you just lost me as these being equivalent to X-Wing. At home costs still count, both monetary and time/effort. I still see way more value in the conversion packs.

Ooor, you just leave them as a PDF on your device and never print them out. Wouldn't it have been nice of FFG to give us that option? You know, like other game companies do?

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13 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Ok, let's look at two examples:  Andy and Bob.  Both of them hear the 2.0 announcement, and both of them have $100.

Andy decides he wants to start playing X-Wing 2.0, but he doesn't play 1.0.  His $100 will buy him a starter ($40) and three $20 ships.  So he has six ships for his $100.

Bob also decides he wants to start playing X-Wing 2.0, and he already has a fairly extensive 1.0 collection.  His $100 will buy him a starter ($40) and a conversion kit ($50).  So he has 30-40 ships for $90.

Carl also has $100 and an extensive 1.0 collection, but he decides he's not willing to spend the money to start playing 2.0 as well, so he doesn't really figure into this discussion.

Let's look at another two examples.

Andy buys three loaves of bread for seven hundred dollars.

Bob buys thirty loaves of bread for six hundred dollars.

Just because one is *better* value than the other doesn't make it *good* value.

Bob is getting a better deal than Andy, but neither of them are getting a good deal.

Carl, who knows what bread SHOULD cost, buys one loaf, for one dollar.

Now THAT'S value.

I will not be paying $90 to get 30 or 40 playable ships. I will be paying $90 to lose ten or twenty playable ships.

In what universe is it a good deal when I pay $90 and lose the ability to play half of my collection?

Look below:

12 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:

I couldn't get past this first paragraph. Seriously, it's like you've never heard of Games Workshop or something...

Do you see what I mean? People look at GW prices and go "Oh ho ho, how ridiculous, who would pay that sort of silly money?!"

Then they look at the SAME PRICES from FFG and go "Oh my, what a wonderful deal! Such good value!"

It's insane.

People are breaking down the kits into a per-model cost, which is great, but consider that I can upgrade an infinite number of models in 40K for $50. What's the per-model cost there? Or an infinite number of models for FREE for the BMG? Or an infinite number of models across a dozen factions in SAGA for $45? Or an infinite number number of models across a dozen factions in Kings of War for $25?

I can understand wanting to get the conversion kits. I'm going to get at least one Imperial and one Rebel kit. 

EDIT: Anyway, the conversation is going in circles. I'm out.

Edited by FFGSysops
Inappropriate Language

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The conversion kit is a good deal and it is not the most expensive edition change

 

The problem I agree is that the content of the kits could be different, but this is not a price problem

I mean with the conversion kit one can play ships in 2.0 he never owned by just using bases and what ever he puts on top as a model.

Yes 3 X-Wing and 6 Tie Fighter would have been better (large ships are ok, there are enough not playing them to trade) but this alone does not make it abad price.

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1 hour ago, Chucknuckle said:

Let's look at another two examples.

Andy buys three loaves of bread for seven hundred dollars.

Bob buys thirty loaves of bread for six hundred dollars.

Just because one is *better* value than the other doesn't make it *good* value.

Bob is getting a better deal than Andy, but neither of them are getting a good deal.

Carl, who knows what bread SHOULD cost, buys one loaf, for one dollar.

Now THAT'S value.

I will not be paying $90 to get 30 or 40 playable ships. I will be paying $90 to lose ten or twenty playable ships.

In what universe is it a good deal when I pay $90 and lose the ability to play half of my collection?

Do you even know how to make comparable examples? when we use your examples and translate them back to the game you are suggesting that we should of been paying $1 for a ship booster all this time and we have been ripping ourselves off by breaking down and buying them for $15 each 

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8 hours ago, Bulwyf said:

No...if I want to play all of my ships I need two of each and the one kit from the First Order and whatever the New Republic is called. If I only got one kit of each I'd have a ton of ships I could never use.

Crippling case of OCD it is then!  :lol:

7 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:

I couldn't get past this first paragraph. Seriously, it's like you've never heard of Games Workshop or something...

...or mathematics, for that matter.

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5 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

I will not be paying $90 to get 30 or 40 playable ships. I will be paying $90 to lose ten or twenty playable ships.

This is the real crux of the debate, I think. You realise both sides of that statement are true? One side of the argument is looking at the 30 or 40 playable ships and thinking "seems pretty good to me", while the other side is concerned with the 10-20 ships they now can't use and seeing that as a loss.

The thing I can't wrap my head around is people complaining they need another kit to run their 3 Defenders, or X of whatever, before we even see the points values or any other details of those ships. For all we know the conversion kits might actually match very closely to what will be able to be used in the standard 200/6 game.

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5 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Let's look at another two examples.

Andy buys three loaves of bread for seven hundred dollars.

Bob buys thirty loaves of bread for six hundred dollars.

Just because one is *better* value than the other doesn't make it *good* value.

Bob is getting a better deal than Andy, but neither of them are getting a good deal.

Carl, who knows what bread SHOULD cost, buys one loaf, for one dollar.

Now THAT'S value.

Ok, so the point of your example is...what?  That you can make up numbers that have absolutely nothing to do with reality?  If we're looking at how much things should cost, others have done an excellent job of breaking down the per-ship cost of the kits and showing that they come to a couple bucks per ship.  I'm not really sure how you can claim that they should cost cheaper than that.

6 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

I will not be paying $90 to get 30 or 40 playable ships. I will be paying $90 to lose ten or twenty playable ships.

This is just flat-out false!  Not one single ship from your entire collection will cease to be playable in 1.0!  And as long as you keep your 1.0 components, even converting your ships won't make them cease to be playable in 1.0.  Rather, you'll now have some of your ships able to be played in two games (even if one of the games will no longer be officially supported)!

6 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

I can understand wanting to get the conversion kits. I'm going to get at least one Imperial and one Rebel kit. But don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining by trying to convince me the price on the sticker is anything other than a gouge.

Look, either the price is worth it to you or it's not.  If the price is worth it, it's not a price gouge, it's economics.  If the price isn't worth it to you, then buying it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Seriously.  If this really is as bad a deal as you seem to think it is, you would have to be an utter fool to go along with it.  If all your posts have been sincere, then honestly you'll be much better off just being like Carl, saving your money, and just sticking to playing 1.0.

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7 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Ooor, you just leave them as a PDF on your device and never print them out. Wouldn't it have been nice of FFG to give us that option? You know, like other game companies do?

There's really nothing stopping people from doing this is there?    There will likely be high resolution images of all of the items needed floating around.   

If it were just cards, that might have been feasible for them to do it and still play competitively, but they've fundamentally changed essential game pieces like the bases and dials, which while they could also be printed out and stickied, etc...., which leaves it more likely that there would be "errors" (either on purpose or by accident) that affect gameplay.   Though I guess they don't even allow independent alt art at World's on cards and that's one of the reasons.

I may be crazy, I guess, but I'd personally just rather pay for the updates as they have them, even if printing were an option because my time is more valuable to me than the savings would be to put the above work in (one of the reasons my 40k army still isn't all converted to the new correct base sizes).    I realize that's not everyone's perspective.

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5 hours ago, Aaron Foss said:

The Bottom Line:

You can choose to buy the new game, or you can not. You can choose to take advantage of the (incredibly generous) option to buy conversion kits instead of some/all of your ships again or you can not. Regardless of your choices, they are your choices, and the company offering you those choices is under absolutely zero obligation - moral, fiscal, or otherwise - to give you different (unrealistic) options because you think the price is 'unfair', or to produce absolutely unworkable 'solutions' that no retailer could hope to support.

This ^^^^

Plus everything else Aaron Foss said.  I think that all future posts from folk complaining should just get the above response sent to them.

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9 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Ooor, you just leave them as a PDF on your device and never print them out. Wouldn't it have been nice of FFG to give us that option? You know, like other game companies do?

No, because you can’t use a pdf of a dial or the new ship bases. Wow, do you even know what’s in a conversion kit? This isn’t 40k where everything is in a book, dude. There are physical components in those kits, making your pdf idea useless. 

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You are all missing the point entirely, it's going to cost me £90 retail or £70 discount pre-order to convert all of my ships.

The four of them. 

But it won't. I'll buy the bits I need from eBay for around £10-£15 (estimate). 

So I've really been complaining needlessly to get my post count up.

Cheers
Baaa

Edited by Baaa

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15 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Let's be fair though, the cards are optional extras. It's like someone complaining that their acrylic templates or dials have to be replaced in 2.0. Yeah, if you want them you gotta replace them, but you didn't need to buy them in the first place and you don't need to buy them now.

Anyway, it's really just splitting hairs at this point. The overall point is that FFG=GW (more or less, though I maintain FFG is more expensive) when it comes to changing editions. And we've all long derided GW as being the evil red-headed step-child of the gaming industry. If FFG are as bad as GW... why are we so happy about it?

Unlike GW they offer a quality game and are able to adress major design flaws at the games very core. GWs new editions don't do that, they just cut back on powercreepy clutter and switch a few things around if even that. X-Wing 2.0 does that, but so much more.

X-Wing 2.0 is expensive and that isn't great, but it is necessary because of descisions made way before the game went off the rails, flaws that have been acknowledged ever since the game became popular. That is the only reason there are people willing to invest this much  - they see the need for things that can only be done by replacing large amounts of cardboard. The original turret system was a source of imbalance that plagued the game from the very moment TIE Interceptor and Falcon were released together, reworking it couldn't have been done without replacements. Meanwhile it has become abundantly clear that powerful effects like Expertise can't be restricted enough for interesting gameplay - therefor introducing a bullseye arc area everywhere makes for much more interesting upgrades. These are not just my opinions, a great part of the community shares similar views.

These changes are required for the long term health of the game and do not work without cardboard replacements. FFG offering self-printouts for those is not something they are obliged to. It does in fact introduce issues I'd rather not have in the game with flimsy low quality technicaly legal printouts.

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