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X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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1 minute ago, AlexW said:

People keep quoting you because you keep using words like "completely" when it may be true for you for what and how you want to convert but it doesn't appear true for others (including most) that have posted here.  That's not what "completely" means.  

How much closer would you be to $400 if you had bought everything you mention for 40k twice?  Again, that's why people keep quoting you because this is a false equivalence.

It doesn't?  Cards and dials are optional, absolutely true.  However, I bought the cards by choice in 7th edition.  Within a couple of years, those cards were not compatible because of the switch to the new edition.  So, I paid money for something in 7th that I can't use in 8th and to replace, even though it's optional, I'd have to pay the new cost.  This is exactly the opposite of what FFG did with dials.  They were optional in 1.0 and they are optional in 2.0 but guess what, they work in both...

In the end, there's certainly people that are going to pay more depending on their situation, and you are unfortunately one of them, but most of us are pretty happy with how the conversion to 2.0 is going to work and we feel the same way as you when challenged on the numbers.

To answer your question, it cost me $210.00 for 8th edition for core rule book ($50) and 4 army books (40.00 each. still waiting for Space Wolves but I assume it will cost the same). For X-wing 2.0 it will cost over $400.00.  As you can see that's  half the cost from one change in one game in comparison to a change in another game.

I never said that my conversion cost is the same for everyone but I do think most people have the old 3 factions in 1.0.  I'm not trying to knock people who like 2.0 and are happy about it. My only quibble in this thread was, as I said above, people making up things to try and make 40k look more expensive than it actually is. At least for edition changes...in terms of actual hobby cost 40k is far more expensive.

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7 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

  I'm not trying to knock people who like 2.0 and are happy about it. My only quibble in this thread was, as I said above, people making up things to try and make 40k look more expensive than it actually is. At least for edition changes...in terms of actual hobby cost 40k is far more expensive.

FWIW, I don't think most people are "making things up" (again, a charged phrase and probably a reason people keep responding to your post) but have been posting their own experiences which are different from yours.

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6 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Whether FFG is forced to throw us a bone or not, it doesn't change the fact that they're still throwing it.  Just because it benefits them doesn't mean it doesn't benefit the players, too.

I don't care about their motives. I care about how that influences their choices. Where other games reasonably price their new edition conversions, FFG has taken the opposite route and slapped the highest price they can on the stickers. Any higher and players would start to quit wholesale. They've literally pushed the price as eye-wateringly high as they can without breaking us. 

6 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Of course, some object that when those ships do get rereleased they'll probably have new upgrades or something that necessitate buying them anyway, so it's all pointless!  I respectfully disagree.  With an Imperial kit, I can upgrade my two gunboats.  When the Star Wing 2.0 releases, suppose it has a good title or something in it, so I buy it.  Now, I have THREE gunboats!  It's not really any different than buying an Aces or Veterans box for an upgrade and getting more of a ship you already have.

Say I have four X Wings. I buy Saw's Renegades (I won't. Why would I with a new edition on the way?) and I buy a core, and I buy a conversion kit. Now I can field four X Wings. But I still have two that don't have dials or bases or cards. A third of my models are still locked behind a paywall, despite spending $130 already.

$130 is not enough? They want MORE before I can even use the four lousy X Wings I have already?

How do people think that's a good deal? 

And that's not to mention my four B wings, my four Y Wings, my four A wings...

I spend all this money, the same (if not more) that I would spend going through a GW edition change and half my collection is STILL paywalled.

And I'm supposed to consider this a favour?!

7 hours ago, Kodos said:

Already wrong as you need Chapter Approved to get the latest point values

Not if you use power levels. Plenty of people do, because let's face it, it's not like using points actually balances the game!

My point here is that if we're holding GW up as the posterchild of price-gouging, evil tabletop games companies (and many here do) then FFG is just as bad and in some cases they're worse. But apparently we're supposed to consider it a favour to us when FFG does it.

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7 hours ago, AlexW said:

You point out it's only cheaper if you "don't buy any more ships."   Well, that's only if you are comparing it to not purchasing new edition models in 40k ($60 for one unit of Primaris Intercessors, for example).

But those aren't equivalent. There won't be a special "extra page" for my codex included in the Primaris box. There won't be upgrades that add benefit to my entire army, that I can only get access to buy either buying the new models or buying a further upgrade kit (depending on what FFG's "alternative conversion path" actually is). That's why I equate buying more models with having to buy a codex. Because the codex is a final, total list of all units and upgrades available to your faction. FFG will add more units and upgrades to your faction over the course of 2.0's lifetime, and if you want to have the same equivalency as 40K (access to every unit and every upgrade) then you need to keep buying.

7 hours ago, AlexW said:

As I said about your last paragraph, you've completely twisted the argument.  This thread isn't "GW ______ the most expensive edition change in miniatures gaming history."    Most people pointing out GW's prices are using it as a basis for comparison, not complaining about either one.

And that's my point. We can quibble for weeks over which is the most expensive (and I still maintain FFG has surpassed GW in that regard) but the fact no one can argue with is that the two are comparable. They are like for like. It's not comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing apples and apples. They're essentially the same. FFG didn't die as a hero, and has now lived long enough to see itself become the villain. It is no better than the evil GW bogeyman and in some cases it is worse. FFG can proudly step onto the podium and share first place with GW, although it's hardly a title they should be glad to have earned...

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44 minutes ago, AlexW said:

It doesn't?  Cards and dials are optional, absolutely true.  However, I bought the cards by choice in 7th edition.  Within a couple of years, those cards were not compatible because of the switch to the new edition.  So, I paid money for something in 7th that I can't use in 8th and to replace, even though it's optional, I'd have to pay the new cost. 

Let's be fair though, the cards are optional extras. It's like someone complaining that their acrylic templates or dials have to be replaced in 2.0. Yeah, if you want them you gotta replace them, but you didn't need to buy them in the first place and you don't need to buy them now.

Anyway, it's really just splitting hairs at this point. The overall point is that FFG=GW (more or less, though I maintain FFG is more expensive) when it comes to changing editions. And we've all long derided GW as being the evil red-headed step-child of the gaming industry. If FFG are as bad as GW... why are we so happy about it?

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Just now, Chucknuckle said:

Let's be fair though, the cards are optional extras. It's like someone complaining that their acrylic templates or dials have to be replaced in 2.0. Yeah, if you want them you gotta replace them, but you didn't need to buy them in the first place and you don't need to buy them now.

Anyway, it's really just splitting hairs at this point. The overall point is that FFG=GW (more or less, though I maintain FFG is more expensive) when it comes to changing editions. And we've all long derided GW as being the evil red-headed step-child of the gaming industry. If FFG are as bad as GW... why are we so happy about it?

Because as you maintain that FFG is more expensive, others maintain that it is not. Despite your arguments, I still see this as a good deal. 

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Just now, SabineKey said:

Because as you maintain that FFG is more expensive, others maintain that it is not. Despite your arguments, I still see this as a good deal. 

Whether it is or isn't doesn't actually matter. We're talking a handful of dollars difference. We're not talking Privateer Press where you get an entire faction deck for $10 or Knight Models where everything was upgraded for free. GW and FFG are the same. $110 for this one, $100 for that one, $90, whatever. Doesn't matter. They're on the same podium, sharing first place. And if we've for so long shuddered at the thought of how expensive GW is, why are so happy that FFG is the same?

I just can't understand how anyone thinks this is a good deal. It's eye wateringly expensive. FFG are trusting the fact that we love Star Wars and X Wing so much that we'll just accept the price like suckers, and for the most part it seems they're right. People are so blinded by how cool the game is and how awesome Star Wars is that they haven't even noticed that FFG has turned into GW. Or GW lite, if you prefer.

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Why not stay with version one, and do not fix something that is broke......................It is a shame to fork out hundreds of dollars and then have to replace the entire lot again. Say Hello to Flames of war and Warhammer..........that is the reason I got rid of my stuff. Now for someone who cannot fork out hundreds to replace thier stuff then they cannot do the tournaments, because like Warhammer 40k and Flames of War the only way to join a tournament is to have the most recent version.

Dumb Dumb Dumb..............

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10 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Whether it is or isn't doesn't actually matter. We're talking a handful of dollars difference. We're not talking Privateer Press where you get an entire faction deck for $10 or Knight Models where everything was upgraded for free. GW and FFG are the same. $110 for this one, $100 for that one, $90, whatever. Doesn't matter. They're on the same podium, sharing first place. And if we've for so long shuddered at the thought of how expensive GW is, why are so happy that FFG is the same?

I just can't understand how anyone thinks this is a good deal. It's eye wateringly expensive. FFG are trusting the fact that we love Star Wars and X Wing so much that we'll just accept the price like suckers, and for the most part it seems they're right. People are so blinded by how cool the game is and how awesome Star Wars is that they haven't even noticed that FFG has turned into GW. Or GW lite, if you prefer.

I actually explained it to you not too long ago. Not all of us see this as holding our collection hostage. Some of us see 2.0 as something new we can buy into at a bargain (under $2 a dial, in some cases.) Some of us are fine with installment buying and spreading the cost out, just like we did when we originally grew our 1.0 collection. We look at the fix costs of 1.0 and see for in the ball park of one of those, we get material for dozens upon dozens of retooled ships instead of just one.

I understand if this isn’t for you and you think it is too expensive for you. But not everybody is you and just because you hold an opinion doesn’t make it the only one worth having.

Edited by SabineKey

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12 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I just can't understand how anyone thinks this is a good deal. It's eye wateringly expensive.

It's not particularly hard to understand. Whereas normally I'd spend £70-80 on a handful of ships in a wave, this time I'm spending it on a new edition and an entire updated faction. In terms of a gameplay-per-pound it's fantastic value.

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30 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

We can quibble for weeks over which is the most expensive (and I still maintain FFG has surpassed GW in that regard) but the fact no one can argue with is that the two are comparable. They are like for like. It's not comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing apples and apples. They're essentially the same.

So can we also agree that converting an entire X-wing collection with 5 factions is equivalent to converting 5 GW armies?

Because given the hugely different games, distribution model of minis, rules and game components, not to mention the number of miniatures playable in standard mode, the main thing I have gleaned from this thread is that there is no agreement on a fair metric for comparison

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Just now, SabineKey said:

I actually explained it to you not too long ago. Not all of us see this as holding our collection hostage. Some of us see 2.0 as something new we can buy into at a bargain (under $2 a dial, in some cases.) Some of us are fine with installment buying and spreading the cost out, just like we did when we originally grew our 1.0 collection. We look at the fix costs of 1.0 and see for in the ball park of one of those, we get material for dozens upon dozens of retooled ships instead of just one.

I understand if this isn’t for you and you think it is too expensive for you. But not everybody is you and just because you hold an opinion doesn’t make it the only one worth having.

But if you look at is as a whole new game it's still just as bad! If we consider it a whole new game, then Warmachine only costs $10! Kings of War is only $25! The Batman Miniatures game is $0! I can go on and on, but the only game that's as expensive as X Wing 2.0 (if we consider them to be new games) is 40K! The long derided super-expensive price gouging "ha ha look at those 40K players spending so much money" 40K. That's how expensive X Wing is now.

I'm going to buy X Wing 2.0 anyway, because I'm a sucker. I guess my point is that you're all suckers too, no matter how you frame the expenditure, it's more than it should be. It's more than other games companies charge, it's juuust on the border of "that's something I'm willing to pay for" because FFG deliberately priced it juuust at that point in order to maximise their profits. Just like GW would. Because they're just as bad as each other. But again, we hate GW for it and love it when FFG does it.

Just now, __underscore__ said:

It's not particularly hard to understand. Whereas normally I'd spend £70-80 on a handful of ships in a wave, this time I'm spending it on a new edition and an entire updated faction. In terms of a gameplay-per-pound it's fantastic value.

In terms of gameplay per pound, the only company ripping you off as badly as FFG is with this 2.0 deal, is GW. And in some cases, GW is actually cheaper. In terms of gameplay per pound there are MUCH better deals out there, pushing this from "fantastic value" to "some of the worst value available in wargaming". They're not relying on good value to retain customers, but the strength of their rules and the draw of their IP.

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2 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

But if you look at is as a whole new game it's still just as bad! If we consider it a whole new game, then Warmachine only costs $10! Kings of War is only $25! The Batman Miniatures game is $0! I can go on and on, but the only game that's as expensive as X Wing 2.0 (if we consider them to be new games) is 40K! The long derided super-expensive price gouging "ha ha look at those 40K players spending so much money" 40K. That's how expensive X Wing is now.

I'm going to buy X Wing 2.0 anyway, because I'm a sucker. I guess my point is that you're all suckers too, no matter how you frame the expenditure, it's more than it should be. It's more than other games companies charge, it's juuust on the border of "that's something I'm willing to pay for" because FFG deliberately priced it juuust at that point in order to maximise their profits. Just like GW would. Because they're just as bad as each other. But again, we hate GW for it and love it when FFG does it.

In terms of gameplay per pound, the only company ripping you off as badly as FFG is with this 2.0 deal, is GW. And in some cases, GW is actually cheaper. In terms of gameplay per pound there are MUCH better deals out there, pushing this from "fantastic value" to "some of the worst value available in wargaming". They're not relying on good value to retain customers, but the strength of their rules and the draw of their IP.

What do you get in those conversions? 

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28 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Now THAT'S making something up!  :lol:

Two rebel kits, two imperial kits, two scum kits, one kit each for First Order and one kit for whatever the New Republic is called plus starter set. That's at least $400.00. Why would I lie about my and my wife's collection? I've been saying that for several posts. The only difference in my previous posts is when I actually counted out my scum ships and realized I needed two kits and not just one.

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Just now, Handler said:

So can we also agree that converting an entire X-wing collection with 5 factions is equivalent to converting 5 GW armies?

Because given the hugely different games, distribution model of minis, rules and game components, not to mention the number of miniatures playable in standard mode, the main thing I have gleaned from this thread is that there is no agreement on a fair metric for comparison

Sure. Full conversions? As in, I can use everything in my collection again? That's $310 for GW and $540 for FFG. More for FFG when you factor in that to have a "full" conversion I will need to buy more ships to unlock upgrades and pilots for my faction.

But you see, it doesn't matter. I say this, and then you say "Oh, but you don't need two conversion kits for each faction" and we keep massaging the figures, adding this or taking that or buying two of these or skipping that...

The fact remains that the only company charging as much as FFG, is GW. And we hate GW because of how much they charge.

Just now, SabineKey said:

What do you get in those conversions? 

Everything you need to play. Tokens, Datasheets, cards, rules for applying upgrades, list building guidelines, missions and scenarios, etc. Whole games.

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Just now, Chucknuckle said:

Everything you need to play. Tokens, Datasheets, cards, rules for applying upgrades, list building guidelines, missions and scenarios, etc. Whole games.

Not bad. Quality and quantity of things like cards and tokens?

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14 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

They're not relying on good value to retain customers, but the strength of their rules and the draw of their IP.

But that is why the 'gameplay-per-pound' value is so high. They're offering a higher quality of rules in a beloved IP and a well supported organised play system for a very low per unit cost compared to their normal prices. Value doesn't just mean cheap.

Edited by __underscore__

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Just now, SabineKey said:

Not bad. Quality and quantity of things like cards and tokens?

Depends on your printer ;)

You can also get printed versions, but then obviously you have to pay. I would have liked a similar option from FFG, at least for the updated dials.

Just now, __underscore__ said:

But that is why the 'gameplay-per-pound' value is so high. They're offering a higher quality of rules in a beloved IP and a well supported organised play system. Value doesn't just mean cheap.

As do many other games systems. For a fraction of the price.

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Just now, Chucknuckle said:

Depends on your printer ;)

You can also get printed versions, but then obviously you have to pay. I would have liked a similar option from FFG, at least for the updated dials.

So, poor quality for cheap. If you want good quality, you have to pay for card stock and have to have a good quality printer to begin with. You also have to factor in ink usuage.

sorry, dude, but you just lost me as these being equivalent to X-Wing. At home costs still count, both monetary and time/effort. I still see way more value in the conversion packs.

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6 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

Two rebel kits, two imperial kits, two scum kits, one kit each for First Order and one kit for whatever the New Republic is called plus starter set. That's at least $400.00. Why would I lie about my and my wife's collection? I've been saying that for several posts. The only difference in my previous posts is when I actually counted out my scum ships and realized I needed two kits and not just one.

You don't NEED two of each.  You WANT two of each.  There's a huge difference.

Saying you NEED multiple copies of each conversion kit to play your existing collection in X-Wing 2nd Edition is either a gross exaggeration or a crippling case of OCD at work.

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3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

You don't NEED two of each.  You WANT two of each.  There's a huge difference.

Saying you NEED multiple copies of each conversion kit to play your existing collection in X-Wing 2nd Edition is either a gross exaggeration or a crippling case of OCD at work.

Don't be dismissive. I love flying 3 Defenders or 3/4 Advanced. So, yes, in order to play these fun squads, I have to shell out for more cardboard than I need. And that is frustrating. And I am sure it is frustrating for others. 

Don't be dismissive of someone who plays different than you. None of this is needed, as it is a luxury item. But don't dismiss complaints about the change over process. I have long said that a change over to a new edition would be more expensive than most of the advocates would admit. Yes, this is about as painless as they could make it, but there is still pain. 

The Resistance/First Order split is also an unexpected change and additional cost. 

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I can understand that some don't like the price on the conversion sets, I really do, but lets look at it based on the fact that they are supposedly giving you everything you need to field 200 of most/any ship from 1.0 for 2.0. Though they are including a Core Set in their figures and possibly 1 of each tie and X-wing expansion, but generally if they are giving you all you can generally field in a standard game it is pretty good value. Someone pointed out somewhere that we have paid $30 - $40 for a one or two ships to get a boost to be playable and here we are paying $50 to get an entire updated and payable faction. 

For those out there who have obscenely large collections, first congrats on amassing a fleet, the conversion set isn't exactly looking to please you. They are looking to make it so most people who want to use their old stuff can and have it fielded right at the start for standard matches. If, you have a large fleet and need a conversion for one or two ships, maybe think about holding off since they have mentioned there would be upgrade paths to get the new content released in future waves which is probably cheaper than buying a second conversion set. If you need a whole bunch of stuff, is it for tournament play like Epic or casual fair? If casual, nothing stopping you from using stuff that wasn't changed from 1.0 IE the Tie Fighter's dial or printing stuff out. 

And, we kind of have to remember that there is supposed to be an Epic conversion at some point so no telling if they might even include some fighter dials and cards in there to help sell that, which possibly might help even out a collection. FFG still sells the conversion kit for Descent, there is no one requiring you or forcing you to go out and get everything you need to field every faction at the start or fielding 400, 600, or 800 points of stuff. 

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