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X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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5 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

Converting" from one edition to another in 40k is still cheaper than moving from X-wing 1.0 to 2.0.

How is a 60$ Rukebook, 25$ Rulebook Supplement and 25$ Index cheaper than a 40$ Core Set and 50$ Conversion Kit

Going for the minimum

Taking a specific army, my 4th Edition Thousand Sons, direct upgrade for 8th skipped everything in between would be 190$ in books and another 25 for bases (3rd party for cheap) as they changed over time and another 50 for models as unit size changed too. And than I am just playable, if i want to win games I would need to invest more.

Saying X-WING is more expensive because you want to get the maximum and compare it with the absolute minimum for another game that leaves you without a playable list just proofs that X-WING is not as expensive as some people are saying.

 

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18 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

 

You are just proving my point...again. 40k having more editions than X-wing is the only reason someone in that time frame would have spent more on moving from one edition to another. "Converting" from one edition to another in 40k is still cheaper than moving from X-wing 1.0 to 2.0.

We can keep going around in circles if you want but your hyperbole and straw man arguments are never going to change that.

The fact that 40k had more editions should be a concern (if you're worried about cash grabs) for multiple reasons but you've somehow twisted into a bonus?

And..again...many of us have pointed out, using actual examples that 40k hasn't been/won't be cheaper to convert even for an individual army.

 

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11 minutes ago, Kodos said:

How is a 60$ Rukebook, 25$ Rulebook Supplement and 25$ Index cheaper than a 40$ Core Set and 50$ Conversion Kit

Going for the minimum

Taking a specific army, my 4th Edition Thousand Sons, direct upgrade for 8th skipped everything in between would be 190$ in books and another 25 for bases (3rd party for cheap) as they changed over time and another 50 for models as unit size changed too. And than I am just playable, if i want to win games I would need to invest more.

Saying X-WING is more expensive because you want to get the maximum and compare it with the absolute minimum for another game that leaves you without a playable list just proofs that X-WING is not as expensive as some people are saying.

 

Wow, I forgot about the base size change.   At that point, I think I can update my entire 2.0 collection for the cost of one army...  and that's in dollar amount, not putting a value on the amount of time that took (and it's not even complete for me yet).

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45 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

 

You are just proving my point...again. 40k having more editions than X-wing is the only reason someone in that time frame would have spent more on moving from one edition to another. "Converting" from one edition to another in 40k is still cheaper than moving from X-wing 1.0 to 2.0.

We can keep going around in circles if you want but your hyperbole and straw man arguments are never going to change that.

I fail to see this... to play my Chaos 40k army in 8th Ed I have had to purchase

Core Rulebook

Chaos Marines Codex 

Chaos Daemons Codex

Chaos Index

Forgeworld Chaos Index

Chapter Approved Supplement 

Chaos Marines Data Cards

Chaod Daemons Data Cards

Tactical Objective Cards

Open War Cards

 

Atleast $500 worth of thanks for coming in a single edition change for a single army.  Would be another $200 - $300 if I looked at the Nurgle, Khorne and thousand sons side of my army.

 

X wing I'll be up for around $400 at most... not even close.

 

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4 minutes ago, AlexW said:

And..again...many of us have pointed out, using actual examples that 40k hasn't been/won't be cheaper to convert even for an individual army.

 

With the caveat that it only STAYS cheaper if you never buy another ship for the duration of 2.0.

Rulebook and codex: $110

Core set and conversion kit: $90

As soon as you want those juicy upgrades or pilots for your faction then you're looking at $110. But my 40K faction will never need to buy any more rules for any of it's units for the duration of the edition. That $50 covers the entire faction for the entire edition.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. The fact that this discussion keeps going back and forth only serves to illustrate that GW and FFG are basically in the same boat here. And if we're all happy to jump on GW because of their prices, then none of us should be happy at what FFG is charging us. Because they're both cut from the same cloth.

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20 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

With the caveat that it only STAYS cheaper if you never buy another ship for the duration of 2.0.

Rulebook and codex: $110

Core set and conversion kit: $90

As soon as you want those juicy upgrades or pilots for your faction then you're looking at $110. But my 40K faction will never need to buy any more rules for any of it's units for the duration of the edition. That $50 covers the entire faction for the entire edition.   

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. The fact that this discussion keeps going back and forth only serves to illustrate that GW and FFG are basically in the same boat here. And if we're all happy to jump on GW because of their prices, then none of us should be happy at what FFG is charging us. Because they're both cut from the same cloth.

With all due respect, the reason it keeps going is because of comparisons like this.   You've created a false equivalency for the first part of your post and then mis-frame the argument in your last paragraph.

You point out it's only cheaper if you "don't buy any more ships."   Well, that's only if you are comparing it to not purchasing new edition models in 40k ($60 for one unit of Primaris Intercessors, for example).

Heck, even in this regard, FFG has said they are going to provide "Wave" packs for new cards that aren't included in the new ships and we know you don't need any of the new ships to get the cards in the 2.0 Wave 1 set.  Where it goes after that, we'll see and I hope they stick to their word, but most of us would be investing in some level on new content for each Wave even if 2.0 didn't exist, right?  It sounds like it will be cheaper for veterans to acquire new content than for new players, so that seems like a good thing.

As I said about your last paragraph, you've completely twisted the argument.  This thread isn't "GW ______ the most expensive edition change in miniatures gaming history."    Most people pointing out GW's prices are using it as a basis for comparison, not complaining about either one.

Edited by AlexW

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29 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

. But my 40K faction will never need to buy any more rules for any of it's units for the duration of the edition

Already wrong as you need Chapter Approved to get the latest point values

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10 hours ago, Icelom said:

So you could take an army from first edition and buy 2x books and be playing an 8th edition game with no other costs? fully legal and good to go? (mostly curious as that seems off from what i have heard)

Given there's 7 editions and over 30 years between 1st and 8th edition 40k, no, and it'd be crazy to think so. Going from 7th or even 6th to 8th though, yes, it's pretty reasonable, unless you were heavily into allies in 6th, in which case you'd need a few more books.

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1 hour ago, AlexW said:

The fact that 40k had more editions should be a concern (if you're worried about cash grabs) for multiple reasons but you've somehow twisted into a bonus?

And..again...many of us have pointed out, using actual examples that 40k hasn't been/won't be cheaper to convert even for an individual army.

 

You mean like the specific examples I've posted more than once? My Space Wolves army, for instance, has over 300 models. All I need to go to 8th edition was a $50 core rulebook and a $40 codex once it comes out for that army. That's one army converted for $90.00.  If you have more than one army in 40k, which I do, then you pay more per army as you do in X-wing to convert more than one faction.

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1 hour ago, Big k said:

I fail to see this... to play my Chaos 40k army in 8th Ed I have had to purchase

Core Rulebook

Chaos Marines Codex 

Chaos Daemons Codex

Chaos Index

Forgeworld Chaos Index

Chapter Approved Supplement 

Chaos Marines Data Cards

Chaod Daemons Data Cards

Tactical Objective Cards

Open War Cards

 

Atleast $500 worth of thanks for coming in a single edition change for a single army.  Would be another $200 - $300 if I looked at the Nurgle, Khorne and thousand sons side of my army.

 

X wing I'll be up for around $400 at most... not even close.

 

 

The only things you had to buy were the core rule book and your army book. Don't act like buying cards is MANDATORY to play. Chaos Demons and Chaos Marines are TWO separate armies so of course you had to buy both codexes. No one forces you to play units not listed in one army. That's a choice you make. 

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7 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

They're not, they're about making the older players buy more models.

If there was no conversion kit, then I'm out. Easy peasy, thanks for all the memories, so long, and thanks for all the fish. I've got plenty of dials and ships and I'll just keep playing 1.0 with my friends. 

Lots of people are ALREADY considering staying with 1.0 despite having access to conversion kits.

If there was no affordable and easy way to bring collections into 2.0, their player base would die overnight. The tournament scene would disappear, players who bought in wouldn't be able to find other groups to join because everyone would be playing something else, and the game would be dead on arrival. Obviously FFG couldn't risk that. They need to keep as many of the current players interested in the game as possible, as well as recruiting new players. So their solution to THEIR problem was the conversion kits. These aren't a fix for our problem, they're for FFG's benefit. As a collective we have much more power over them than they have over us, and not offering an upgrade path to 2.0 is the best way they could have collectively pissed all of us off at once.

So they give us the conversion kits, on which they decided to still make a tidy profit because **** the consumers, to keep us in the game. Because by wave II, there will be new content we want to buy DESPITE already having the conversion kits, and because having a healthy playing community encourages more new players to join. Even if us older players never bought another thing, we remain valuable to FFG because without us the new players have no one to play against. Without us the new players have much less incentive to buy the models in the first place because who would they use them with? But we will buy more product, because 2.0 will be awesome, and there will be awesome new pilots and upgrades to get, and lots of new ships to be released in all the different factions.

But without the conversion kits we won't be buying that new product because it doesn't mesh with our 1.0 X Wing. So from FFGs perspective, the conversion kits were vital. They needed them. But they're not a product being sold at a great price, they know the Star Wars IP is very attractive and attracts die-hard fans who spend hundreds of dollars on lego kits, scale models, props, and other assorted merchandise, and they know they've built a good game in 2.0 which addresses a lot of the concerns many of us have had with X Wing for a long time, so they put the highest price on the box they thought they could, without driving people away.

So let me see if I understand your reasoning.

1.  Old players have spent a lot of money on the game.

2.  Old players like the new rules, but don't want to restart their entire collections.

3.  FFG wants to retain old players.

4.  FFG sells conversion kits that allow old players to play the new game with old components for a fraction of the price of buying all new components.

5.  Therefore, the kits are a BAD deal, solely because FFG's motives aren't purely altruistic?

Whether FFG is forced to throw us a bone or not, it doesn't change the fact that they're still throwing it.  Just because it benefits them doesn't mean it doesn't benefit the players, too.

The way I see it, the new ships are $20 each.  That means if I can convert even three of my ships from one conversion kit, I've saved myself some money in the long run, not to mention the fact that some of these ships will probably take years to end up in 2.0 waves without the kits.

Of course, some object that when those ships do get rereleased they'll probably have new upgrades or something that necessitate buying them anyway, so it's all pointless!  I respectfully disagree.  With an Imperial kit, I can upgrade my two gunboats.  When the Star Wing 2.0 releases, suppose it has a good title or something in it, so I buy it.  Now, I have THREE gunboats!  It's not really any different than buying an Aces or Veterans box for an upgrade and getting more of a ship you already have.

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39 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

 

The only things you had to buy were the core rule book and your army book. Don't act like buying cards is MANDATORY to play. Chaos Demons and Chaos Marines are TWO separate armies so of course you had to buy both codexes. No one forces you to play units not listed in one army. That's a choice you make. 

By this logic for x-wing you need 1x core, and 1x conversion to field countless 2.0 armies.

I just don't understand how you guys keep comparing the most limited updated for 40k to a full large collection conversion of x-wing. It just sounds horribly flawed. (Let alone the fact that in the time xing went from 1.0 to 2.0 there were several version changed in 40k)

Just feels like people are using vastly different goal posts.

 

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2 hours ago, Kodos said:

How is a 60$ Rukebook, 25$ Rulebook Supplement and 25$ Index cheaper than a 40$ Core Set and 50$ Conversion Kit

Going for the minimum

Taking a specific army, my 4th Edition Thousand Sons, direct upgrade for 8th skipped everything in between would be 190$ in books and another 25 for bases (3rd party for cheap) as they changed over time and another 50 for models as unit size changed too. And than I am just playable, if i want to win games I would need to invest more.

Saying X-WING is more expensive because you want to get the maximum and compare it with the absolute minimum for another game that leaves you without a playable list just proofs that X-WING is not as expensive as some people are saying.

 


And not only that, but GW has a strong history of making past unit types or upgrades no longer playable, or else releases new weapon loadouts or troop types that you need to get for the new addition.  Not only this, but GW has a long history of entirely dropping some factions (e.g. Squats, Chaos Dwarves, Bretonnians) and adding or re-adding other factions in newer editions.  You want to talk about an expensive edition change?  Image having an $1,200 (in 1987 cash) Squat Army that gets entirely dropped in the newest edition of 40k...


For instance, when Warhammer shifted from 5th Edition to 6th Edition, I was a Lizardmen player.  I had over 100 skinks armed with short bows, a unit of custom-made Skink cavalry on Cold Ones, and two Slann Priest being carried on their paladins.  Well, in the new addition skinks couldn't use short bows... they could only use javelins or blowpipes.  So I've got 100 skinks that are armed in ways no longer allowed, so I have to either convert all of the models I have with new blow-gun bits (expensive in both time and money), buy new appropriately-armed skink miniatures (expensive), or just use models as a "counts as" legal armament (not viable in tournaments).  Cold One cavalry still existed, but now they were ridden by Saurus Warriors, not skinks. So again, a bunch of models I can no longer use in the new addition.  And guess what, now instead of being carried on a platform by Saurus Servants, Slann Priest now hover around the board on a floating disc.  This is just a few of the changes off the top of my head.


So you're not just buying new core rules, new codexes, and new supplements (e.g. two supplements to use Magic in the new edition: spell cards, warp cards, magic items, etc. ....) but you're likely having to spend a ton of time and money to re-convert your now illegal or non-existant models into something that is legal.

X-Wing 2.0's transition is, at least compared to GW Edition changes, a drop in the bucket.  Also, I love how people have been happily spending five years dropping $30-50 on 'ace' pack repaints to fix one or two ship types, but are totally balking at the idea of dropping $50 to fix about 16 ship types at a time...

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1 hour ago, Bulwyf said:

You mean like the specific examples I've posted more than once? My Space Wolves army, for instance, has over 300 models. All I need to go to 8th edition was a $50 core rulebook and a $40 codex once it comes out for that army. That's one army converted for $90.00.  If you have more than one army in 40k, which I do, then you pay more per army as you do in X-wing to convert more than one faction.

You didn't pay for the interim book as well?  What about updating old cards that from the previous edition that are no longer useful and have to be repurchased?   

Not that it matters.  If you're saying it was cheaper for you, that's fine, but that's not what I see as most people's experience and there's a lot of talking in absolutes and false equivalencies.

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1 hour ago, Bulwyf said:

 

The only things you had to buy were the core rule book and your army book. Don't act like buying cards is MANDATORY to play. Chaos Demons and Chaos Marines are TWO separate armies so of course you had to buy both codexes. No one forces you to play units not listed in one army. That's a choice you make. 

So wouldn't this also apply to those acting as if they must convert their entire three faction X-wing collection at once in the most expedient but least efficient way possible by just buying extra conversion kits?

The scope of that is also a choice.

It seems as if the poster you're quoting is comparing full conversions for both systems.

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1 hour ago, Bulwyf said:

 

The only things you had to buy were the core rule book and your army book. Don't act like buying cards is MANDATORY to play. Chaos Demons and Chaos Marines are TWO separate armies so of course you had to buy both codexes. No one forces you to play units not listed in one army. That's a choice you make. 

Cards aren't mandatory but new editions make old cards obsolete, so you either need to take the hit or replace them, sort of like the decision to purchase an extra kit.

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I see on here a constant thread of debate over whether FFG is doing any favor to the players.  Simply put, they are addressing a lot of our concerns, and doing so in a way that makes a revised ruleset accessible to old players in a reasonable manner.  In essence, they are doing us a few favors, but these favors don't come from a purely altruistic place.  If they did, then FFG would only ask for proof of purchase and ship us upgrades free of charge.  

They have done us the favor of revising the entire X-wing ruleset, potentially eliminating broken combos and making older ships become competitive and usable again.  You know? Ships like the one the game takes its NAME from?  This favor also benefits them, by keeping the game going and keeping us making purchases.  Had the game continued on the trajectory of 1.0, the player base would have evaporated and the game would be dead.  By keeping it alive, they keep their own profits coming, as well as making it remain easy for many players to find groups, events and so forth to keep playing.  Again, favor to us and benefit to them.

They have provided reasonably costed tools by which players can get into the new rules AND port in ships that have not technically been released for the new edition, yet; just paper and cardboard for them.  Who knows how long we'll be waiting for the 2.0 JM5K, for example? Yet, as a player with an older collection of ships, assuming you have more than JUST the JM5K for Scum, you can make yours playable in 2.0 NOW, and for far less than buying an eventual expansion exclusive to the ship in a later wave.  This too is a favor to us, and one that also benefits FFG.

A favor does not have to be beneficial only to one side.  I've done many favors for my wife which also benefitted me, for example.  To rage against FFG and their conversion kits over the fact that this favor is not purely at FFG's expense is ridiculous.  If you don't want to convert, DON'T.  Stick to 1.0.  For now, that remains my intention, honestly.  First Edition X-wing will soon end, and there is nothing compelling anyone to buy another model or expansion EVER. 

I guess my point is this: We all have different collections and different investment levels in X-wing, and it would be nearly impossible for FFG to design products for all of our individual needs, and even more likely it would be much more expensive to do so.  So, they came up with a method for quickly bringing people somewhat up to date, at least to a playable level, in a reasonable, cost effective manner for both players and publisher.

Whether or not I eventually convert, I appreciate the method that FFG selected, as it is a reasonable one.

There is no argument that 1.0 was becoming bloated and broken; the number of cards one often put on the table to make particular ships playable was often obscene, and at the same time very limiting.  Many ships were deployed using only ONE pilot and with very little variation in the build around that pilot.  Some of this had to do with cost efficiency, and some to do with the demands of the meta and how effectively it made certain things either unplayable or playable only with certain upgrades.  It is the objective of 2.0 to limit this, and open up both build options and design space.  While I'm no fan of the importance of the app to the game, the app managing squad points is advantageous insofar as it will allow for ships to be adjusted as needed with the evolving meta, where the previous, static model forced ships to become obsolete as new rules and abilities exceeded the limits of things designed before those rules were implemented.

2.0 will allow those who are truly invested in the world of X-wing Miniatures to keep playing for a longer time, while enjoying a hopefully more diverse and open game than they have had at their disposal throughout First Edition.

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This whole discussion reminds me of a moment from The Old Republic.  On Nal Hutta, an underboss representing a hutt asks you to retrieve an item for pay.  When you bring it back, he says, "This'll make the big guy really happy.  That makes me happy, so I can make you happy!"  (Though not TOO happy.  It's a starting planet, so your pay is rather minimal.)

So even the scum of the criminal underworld understand that business transactions for solely selfish reasons can be mutually beneficial to all parties!

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"I want to play with the new stuff"

"Well then buy some new stuff"

"But it'll cost me money as I've got all this old stuff.  Some other game made by someone else lets me play with new stuff for some money but it's cheaper and it's better"

"Well then keep playing with the old stuff"

"But I want to play with the new stuff"

"Well then buy some new stuff"

"But it'll cost me money as I've got all this old stuff.  Some other game made by someone else lets me play with new stuff for some money but it's cheaper and it's better"

sigh...

Edited by MrParsons

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5 hours ago, Icelom said:

By this logic for x-wing you need 1x core, and 1x conversion to field countless 2.0 armies.

I just don't understand how you guys keep comparing the most limited updated for 40k to a full large collection conversion of x-wing. It just sounds horribly flawed. (Let alone the fact that in the time xing went from 1.0 to 2.0 there were several version changed in 40k)

Just feels like people are using vastly different goal posts.

 

I wasn't the one who started the comparison. People were saying moving to 8th edition in 40k was more expensive than moving entire collections of X-wing to 2.0 which is completely not true. That's what I've been consistently arguing against. To convert my and my wife's X-wing to 2.0 will cost us well over $400.00 USD plus taxes. When I changed from 7th to 8th edition in 40k it cost me way, way less and that is for 4 different armies. 

To use the comparison you made about one faction in 40k to one faction in X-wing it is still cheaper in 40k. One core rule book and one codex put me back $90.00. To move one faction in X-wing will cost  me $100.00 for two kits plus the starter box.  That's been my entire point. I'm not sure why the same few people keep quoting me and arguing why $90.00 is more than $150.00...

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5 hours ago, AlexW said:

Cards aren't mandatory but new editions make old cards obsolete, so you either need to take the hit or replace them, sort of like the decision to purchase an extra kit.

That...makes no sense. Cards aren't mandatory at all. Like...at all. You don't need to buy new cards to replace old ones to play the game. That's like saying I have to buy custom dials all over again for X-wing 2.0. You didn't have to have custom dials in 1.0 and you don't need them in 2.0 either.

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7 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

I wasn't the one who started the comparison. People were saying moving to 8th edition in 40k was more expensive than moving entire collections of X-wing to 2.0 which is completely not true. That's what I've been consistently arguing against. To convert my and my wife's X-wing to 2.0 will cost us well over $400.00 USD plus taxes. When I changed from 7th to 8th edition in 40k it cost me way, way less and that is for 4 different armies. 

To use the comparison you made about one faction in 40k to one faction in X-wing it is still cheaper in 40k. One core rule book and one codex put me back $90.00. To move one faction in X-wing will cost  me $100.00 for two kits plus the starter box.  That's been my entire point. I'm not sure why the same few people keep quoting me and arguing why $90.00 is more than $150.00...

That makes sense and those numbers make more sense. I must have taken you out of context or lumped you in with the people converting there entire x-wing collection and comparing it to a single 40k army.

I apologize for that.

Both games have costs, and they are going to be fairly variable per each persons needs. for some people a single conversion kit and the starter will convert their entire collection for others like me 6x total conversion kits and a starter will almost convert my collection.

 

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4 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

People were saying moving to 8th edition in 40k was more expensive than moving entire collections of X-wing to 2.0 which is completely not true

People keep quoting you because you keep using words like "completely" when it may be true for you for what and how you want to convert but it doesn't appear true for others (including most) that have posted here.  That's not what "completely" means.  

6 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

To convert my and my wife's X-wing to 2.0 will cost us well over $400.00 USD plus taxes.

How much closer would you be to $400 if you had bought everything you mention for 40k twice?  Again, that's why people keep quoting you because this is a false equivalence.

5 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

That...makes no sense. Cards aren't mandatory at all. Like...at all. You don't need to buy new cards to replace old ones to play the game. That's like saying I have to buy custom dials all over again for X-wing 2.0. You didn't have to have custom dials in 1.0 and you don't need them in 2.0 either.

It doesn't?  Cards and dials are optional, absolutely true.  However, I bought the cards by choice in 7th edition.  Within a couple of years, those cards were not compatible because of the switch to the new edition.  So, I paid money for something in 7th that I can't use in 8th and to replace, even though it's optional, I'd have to pay the new cost.  This is exactly the opposite of what FFG did with dials.  They were optional in 1.0 and they are optional in 2.0 but guess what, they work in both...

In the end, there's certainly people that are going to pay more depending on their situation, and you are unfortunately one of them, but most of us are pretty happy with how the conversion to 2.0 is going to work and we feel the same way as you when challenged on the numbers.

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