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X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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On 5/4/2018 at 6:20 PM, Max Teranous said:

Not even close. 8th ed 40k rules alone runs to over $1000 dollars so far (assuming you had all codexes in 7th and wanted to replace them all)

I mean, yeah, but no one actually plays every faction or buys every codex. You don't have to exaggerate to properly cover 40k's typical retail update costs. Rulebook comes either as a standalone hardback for ~$80, or you can usually get one in the starter set for a given edition for whatever that goes for, then codices run ~$40-$50. Usually you only need one of these but the last few editions enabling allies and mixing forces means you might need 2-3... But that of course is before the fact that decent size army for any single faction at retail prices is as much as many people have paid for their entire X-wing collections, and that's just to field a single list, and doesn't factor in the time you need to spend building and painting them yourself. And typically rebalancing and the like at an edition change usually means you want to make some changes anyway, so that's more new kits.

tl;dr Claiming it's $1000 for 40k edition updates is completely disingenuous, but the actual cost of updating is probably still going to be more for the typical 40k player than the typical X-wing player.

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4 minutes ago, Otacon said:

I mean, yeah, but no one actually plays every faction or buys every codex. You don't have to exaggerate to properly cover 40k's typical retail update costs. Rulebook comes either as a standalone hardback for ~$80, or you can usually get one in the starter set for a given edition for whatever that goes for, then codices run ~$40-$50. Usually you only need one of these but the last few editions enabling allies and mixing forces means you might need 2-3... But that of course is before the fact that decent size army for any single faction at retail prices is as much as many people have paid for their entire X-wing collections, and that's just to field a single list, and doesn't factor in the time you need to spend building and painting them yourself. And typically rebalancing and the like at an edition change usually means you want to make some changes anyway, so that's more new kits.

tl;dr Claiming it's $1000 for 40k edition updates is completely disingenuous, but the actual cost of updating is probably still going to be more for the typical 40k player than the typical X-wing player.

Seems fair when people are comparing updating a single 40k faction and changing none of the units in its army to doing a full 2x kit per faction upgrade of x-wing.

"i am going to pick the cheapest possible playable collection of 40k to upgrade vs someone with a fully maxed out collection of X-wing to prove its cheaper!"

 

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5 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Seems fair when people are comparing updating a single 40k faction and changing none of the units in its army to doing a full 2x kit per faction upgrade of x-wing.

"i am going to pick the cheapest possible playable collection of 40k to upgrade vs someone with a fully maxed out collection of X-wing to prove its cheaper!"

 

Again, I gave an example of moving 5 armies to 8th for less than the x wing core +1 coversion each for 3 factions.

Sure you can add on future campaign/CA/new dex more models, but then add on the wave kits and more models in x wing. We don't know what their "path to obtaining later upgrades" is but it won't be free.

 

Lots of exaggeration and hyperbole going on but now we have people exaggerating and hyperbolizing the exaggerations and hyperbole.

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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Just now, Icelom said:

Seems fair when people are comparing updating a single 40k faction and changing none of the units in its army to doing a full 2x kit per faction upgrade of x-wing.

"i am going to pick the cheapest possible playable collection of 40k to upgrade vs someone with a fully maxed out collection of X-wing to prove its cheaper!"

 

It's worth mentioning that I upgraded more than 6,000 points of my army with for the minimum. Codex and rulebook. And my X Wing collection is hardly maxed out. I don't have any: K Wings, E Wings, TIE Phantoms, Decimators, YT2400, Ghost/Rebel Phantom I/II, Auzituck, ARC 170, Scurrg H6, Assault Gunboat, TAP, TIE Reaper, TIE Punisher or TIE Striker.

But the ships I DO have I have 4+ of. So the conversion kits are a sore point for me. I will only use half of the content, but that half of the content only covers half of my collection. I'm basically getting $12.50 value from a $50 kit. And while it's easy to say "Oh, just trade!" I guarantee the market will be swamped by many of the ships I will have spares of, while the ships I want will be fiercely sought after. So far no one has wanted to trade four VCX's for four X Wings, funnily enough.

The reason I keep participating in this thread is firstly because I'm sore about how the conversion to 2.0 affects me personally. I have skin in this game. And secondly because for years we've been told that GW is the bogyman of miniatures gaming, charging you $500 for a new book and then making you buy $2,000 of new miniatures every six months. But it's mostly hyperbole and niche cases and here FFG is doing the exact same thing. Even the cheapest possible conversion cost of a single core set and a single conversion kit is only $10-$20 cheaper than a GW edition change. But people are lapping it up because it's FFG and the anti-GW hyperbole express keeps steaming along.

To me, the conversion kits are a form of ransom. If I buy two conversion kits, one for Rebels and one for Imperials, more than half of my collection is still locked. I can't unlock it until I pay more. I bought 4 B wings because I wanted to fly four B Wings and I won't be able to. Not until I figure out if it will be cheaper to just buy a second conversion kit, source the dials/cards from a third party retailer, or if FFG are going to do a 'per wave' conversion kit that includes more dials, bases and pilot cards. Either way, I can't use the rest of my ships until I pay more. And that's AFTER a minimum $140 spend. And it gets even worse for me because I'm in Australia and the price isn't just converted from USD to AUD, there's a markup as well. Buying a core and two conversion kits is $225 AUD, which is $170 USD. So that price that I already consider to be high, you can just go ahead and slap $30 on top of it.

Also, I'm off work for a month recovering from an operation, so I have way more time on my hands than is healthy and I can't do anything so I'm spending more time on the internet than is good for me...

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On 5/4/2018 at 5:55 PM, SabineKey said:

There are some problems with your math. 

First, the new core set costs about $40, meaning on kit and core set is about $90.

Second, we have had confirmation that the First Order and Resistance converters will be priced less than the pervious kits, meaning your ending total of $300 is too high.

shipping has a cost too

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On 5/4/2018 at 5:49 PM, Mud Turkey 13 said:

Cut the veteran players a break and welcome them into the new edition by giving them a good deal on these conversion kits.  

Like, say, by allowing them to only pay $50 to upgrade 30+ ships rather than forcing them to buy new models?  To the people complaining about how the conversion kits are just price gouging, the kits themselves are FFG's way of trying to cut veteran players some slack!  I mean, who's likely to buy the conversion kits besides veteran players anyway?

On 5/4/2018 at 7:14 PM, madquest8 said:

The alternative is for FFG not to screw over their customer base and think they can get away with it. Will the new players joining the hobby exceed the old ones leaving it? Only time will tell I guess... and support from a few play testers and FFG employees isn't going to help them.

Time will tell.  As for "screw over their customer base," I guess I'm not really sure what you mean.  No game can run forever without a reboot.  From what I've seen of the new edition, it looks like they're earnestly trying to fix many of the mistakes that have built up over the years.  There were many issues (such as weak dials on older ships or turrets being too useful) that couldn't really be fixed without reprinting everything.  Also, they can now incorporate new ideas into old ships (such as the Force, or every ship having a Bullseye arc). 

Of particular interest, I think, is the app they say we'll use with it.  Being able to adjust costs virtually (even being able to adjust the cost of upgrades to be different depending on what ship they're on!) will help a lot with balance issues.  How many times has FFG had to come up with some ridiculous workaround because changing costs or upgrades would lead to unnecessary confusion?  In 2.0, this is no longer an issue!  I'm not sure how much they've said about the app, but I know Mansions of Madness v2.0 required an app, and they made it available for free (the app, not the game itself, sadly).

I can sympathize with those who simply can't afford to upgrade, but I think that overall, the changes will improve the game.  As others have suggested, if you look at it as a completely separate game rather than an expansion, it all looks a bit more reasonable.

Edited by JJ48

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21 minutes ago, JediSamurai said:

shipping has a cost too

But is not universally applicable, as there are ways to cut down on that cost, like buying components at a brick and mortar store instead of ordering.

That also doesn’t account for the other errors in math I mentioned.

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Just now, JJ48 said:

if you look at it as a completely separate game rather than an expansion, it all looks a bit more reasonable.

The problem I have with that is that if you look at ALL new editions as new games, it gets even more unreasonable. Lots of games offer edition changes or new rules for very low prices, some even for free. Getting into Warmachine 3.0 would cost me $10, not $90. Batman Miniatures 2.0 would be free!

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14 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

The problem I have with that is that if you look at ALL new editions as new games, it gets even more unreasonable. Lots of games offer edition changes or new rules for very low prices, some even for free. Getting into Warmachine 3.0 would cost me $10, not $90. Batman Miniatures 2.0 would be free!

Just a question as I don’t really delve into many other miniature games. Do either of those games have strong tournament scenes?

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On 5/1/2018 at 4:47 PM, ONIMITCHELL69 said:

Why is this a thing? Why does this feel like a poorly masked money grab?

Why is this a post?  Why does this feel like a poorly masked troll account?

18 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

The problem I have with that is that if you look at ALL new editions as new games, it gets even more unreasonable. Lots of games offer edition changes or new rules for very low prices, some even for free. Getting into Warmachine 3.0 would cost me $10, not $90. Batman Miniatures 2.0 would be free!

I can't really speak to that, as this is the only miniatures game I really play (I tried getting into Armada, but no one in my area plays it regularly).  Honestly, I had always expected that if they ever made an X-Wing 2.0 they'd force us to buy all new ships, so considering how much they're changing the game, the conversion kits look like an absolute steal to me! 

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7 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Just a question as I don’t really delve into many other miniature games. Do either of those games have strong tournament scenes?

Batman, not so much. Warmachine is a tournament juggernaut though.

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4 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Batman, not so much. Warmachine is a tournament juggernaut though.

Knight Models did a horrible job of printing rules in different books in first edition and they’ve also done some very unfriendly customer practices like web store exclusives or limited edition models.

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Just now, AlexW said:

Knight Models did a horrible job of printing rules in different books in first edition and they’ve also done some very unfriendly customer practices like web store exclusives or limited edition models.

This is true, although to be fair it was more a case of the game growing with time and adding more heroes and factions. Although I do kinda like how you can only buy Calendar Man on special days. And every company does dodgy things. Remember the Palp/Raider debacle? Worth mentioning too that they allow every (relevant) model to do double duty in the DCMU game as well. I'll bet they're kicking themselves they lost the Marvel licence when they did.

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2 hours ago, Kodos said:

I guess the price thing is just a problem because it is all at once

No one has a problem to pay 10 per month but if the have to pay 120 once it feels too much
 

Do not underestimate what an emotional gut punch this is to some players. I understand the complaints about where the game was, and I am loving what they have done to the underlying system of X-wing, which really, was made by a different FFG than it is today. But I am not likely ever to get rid of my models, because I have become attached emotionally to the game. Just like how I have all of my SWCCG cards. So, yeah, there is an emotional element to some of the outbursts. I had some as well. 

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4 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

This is true, although to be fair it was more a case of the game growing with time and adding more heroes and factions. Although I do kinda like how you can only buy Calendar Man on special days. And every company does dodgy things. Remember the Palp/Raider debacle? Worth mentioning too that they allow every (relevant) model to do double duty in the DCMU game as well. I'll bet they're kicking themselves they lost the Marvel licence when they did.

 

Right, that was my point, though.  There are things that I think are much more blatant cash grabs but I don’t think this is one of them.   I mean, I’ve paid like $400 to update 4 ships and 4 nice display pieces so the conversion kits are favorites of mine.

I understand the Raider/Tie Adv and I’ve pointed out that I think conversion kits  are a lot better option in comparison. 

I’ve also said I think they need to price out the conversion kits to make a good chunk of money since those vets won’t be buying the new ships and I’m okay with that just like o understand why KM is selling store exclusives, even though I disagree with that as I think it undercuts their hobby stores and is worse for growing the hobby.  I also wish they me kept the Marvel IP.

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Anecdotal evidence contrary to the opinion of the original poster:

I was in my local Half-Priced books, and a 53 page sourcebook with an orange/yellow Spacemarine on the cover for WH40K was listed at $40USD used.

I can also attest that there was almost nothing Pathfinder on the shelves, while D&D 4th edition was well represented.

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I guess I don’t understand what everyone means by conversation. I have 123 ships in the three faction that have kits. If I get one of each available kit I will be short: 2 X-wing, 4 TIE/ln, 1 A-Wing, 3 TIE interceptor, 2 B-Wing, 1 TIE Bomber, 2 TIE Defders, 2 Vipers, and 1 Gunship dial. Converting all but 18 ships for $160 (with store discounts/credits) sounds like a good deal to have a game that is fun to play again. Considering I have spent $2,190 USD so far an additional 7% is not a lot.

What am I missing?

Sure I will not have dials for all 6 of my Interceptors but I never play that many at the same time. I understand wanting more TIE/ln dials, but you will have 6 to start (4 concerted + 2 from the starter).

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For me, I specifically enjoy playing 3 Advanced or 3 Defenders. That is a rather frustrating pill to swallow to play something I enjoy. 

At least with the Raider or Veterans, I got some pretty models as well. 

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On 5/5/2018 at 9:53 PM, Vontoothskie said:

If you want to get technical, I already payed for my collection, so the additional cost is and additional purchase. if you buy a new Xbox and install your old games you arent "getting a discount".  friggin kids these days , lol

But that's not what's happening.  No one's making you pay money to continue playing the game you're playing now (1.0).  Rather, if you pay a little bit of money, and have the 1.0 ships, you don't have to buy new ships to play 2.0.  If you own the old game, you are indeed getting a discount on playing the new game by buying the conversion kits.

On 5/5/2018 at 10:01 PM, Vontoothskie said:

the Devs also swore up and down they would never realease expansions without models and yet.... i think FFGs word is garbage because they are a corporation. if they dont maximize profits at the expense of consumers they can literally be sued for it by shareholders and/or disney

Did they say that for all their games, or just for X-Wing?  Because this isn't an expansion to X-Wing, it's a new game...

On 5/5/2018 at 10:16 PM, Ubul said:

Comparing the upgrade cost of Warhammer vs X-Wing is pointless, due to the differences between the two systems. The upgrade cost does not scale with the number of models in 40k, but it does in X-Wing. People with small collection will find that converting X-Wing is cheaper. If you have many models, 40k is cheaper.

This is the Internet!  Begone with your sensible reason and logic; they have no place here!

On 5/5/2018 at 11:45 PM, Darth Meanie said:

I get the points.

I can't believe they left off upgrade bars.  If you screwed up the upgrade bar, I think that's a bad sign.  Very bad.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we just go through this with the JumpMaster?  People were complaining that it was broken for years, and kept complaining that none of the fixes were working because the problem was an interaction between the ship and one of the upgrades?  And then FFG finally fixed it by altering the Upgrade bar, and people complained that it would be really confusing for players buying older copies of the ship without the altered upgrade bar?  Did I just dream all that?

On 5/6/2018 at 12:15 AM, Chucknuckle said:

I love the notion that people with large collections are doing it wrong and deserve to be penalised. You need more than one kit? Well, you clearly have too much stuff! 

Yeah, **** me for having more than two X Wings, right?

So, in all seriousness, what's your proposed solution?  Have a kit that's so large that it covers even the largest of collections, with a price-point to match?  Have everyone buy the conversion kit, but then FFG will hand out free copies of additional conversions to everyone who has more copies of a ship?  Have custom kits where you get to choose which conversions you want in them, which won't be able to be mass-produced the same way?

On 5/6/2018 at 12:26 AM, Chucknuckle said:

In an ideal world they would release separate faction books like a 40k codex. So you only ever need one, no matter the size of your collection, for the lifetime of the edition.

What should they do for all the physical pieces being updated?

On 5/6/2018 at 12:26 AM, Chucknuckle said:

As a more realistic alternative, I'd like to see the kits split into small base kits and large base kits. Give people some more options instead of "here's the conversion kit, like it or lump it". If I could buy three small base kits and a large base kit, I'd feel better about things (assuming the kits were cheaper due to reduced content and increased volume of sales).

Ok, so you have the same amount of product, but spread over more packaging and shelf space.  That may end up being cheaper for a player buying only a couple things in the conversion kit, but it will end up costing more for players if they buy exactly the same stuff that's in the current conversion kit.  Not to mention, you'll still have issues of people buying a small-base kit and whining, "There aren't enough Star Wing dials to cover all 20 of mine!  I don't even use basic TIEs, so why do I need to pay for those?"  No matter how it's divided, it won't match all collections.  

On 5/6/2018 at 1:04 AM, Chucknuckle said:

And here again is the "you didn't collect the game the right way, you deserve to pay more" attitude. 

Yeah, I have a lot of X Wings. But surely most people already have more than two? And B Wings? Remember when BBBBZ was a thing? I'll happily admit I'm on the end of the bell curve when it comes to collections, especially in the demographic that frequents this forum, but it only takes three X Wings or Y Wings or B Wings to push people into the "I need at least two conversion kits per faction" bracket. Three Defenders? Was that third Defender as equally "ill advised"? I think a lot of people are going to need four kits just to get back up to speed. 

I think most people are going to need at least two kits per faction anyway. At least this way the kits would be cheaper since there'd be less duplicate content.

It's a continuum. On one end FFG takes a loss on the conversion kits and gives them out for free. On the other they completely change the scale of the game and invalidate all 1.0 collections. You're never going to eliminate whiners, but the closer FFG gets to the "we're giving it away for free" end of the spectrum the more the whining dies off and the more strained and ridiculous it becomes.

I'll happily admit that FFG is sitting close to the middle of the spectrum, what I hate are self-righteous people on the forums telling us how trivial the cost is, or how it's good value for money, or how we should be grateful for the privilege of paying FFG hundreds of dollars to unlock our collections for 2.0. 

It's not cheap, it's not a privilege, I don't consider it value for money, and it's one **** of a friction point for the average consumer. The sticker shock factor here is enormous, judging from the feedback across the internet, I'd say it's having more impact than FFG anticipated.

Well, if you buy a new Core and a conversion kit, you'll have 3 X-Wings or 6 TIEs.  And if all you need is just one more copy of a ship to complete your list, why buy two conversion kits rather than a conversion kit and one copy of the 2.0 version?  You'll even get a new model as a bonus!

On 5/13/2018 at 2:03 PM, Chucknuckle said:

I have no idea how many of these things they intend to produce or sell. But the majority of the price comes from mark-ups. Dropping the price by half doesn't mean FFG lose half their profit from the product, it's probably more like 25%.

Actually, doesn't it mean they lose more than half of their profit (at least, total profit; not sure how it's split between FFG and the store)?  Suppose it takes $10 to make one of these kits.  That means $40 profit.  If the price were $25, that would leave $15 profit, which is less than half.

It doesn't really change even if they exact numbers are different, because as long as the production costs are more or less fixed, any reduction in price will come completely out of profits until you're actually at-cost, at which point you can't reduce it further without running a loss.

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Just now, JJ48 said:

Actually, doesn't it mean they lose more than half of their profit (at least, total profit; not sure how it's split between FFG and the store)?  Suppose it takes $10 to make one of these kits.  That means $40 profit.  If the price were $25, that would leave $15 profit, which is less than half.

There's a lot in there and I can't be bothered replying to it all...

But no, a $10 cost does not mean a $40 profit. If they cost $10 to produce, then they probably sell to the retailer for $20-$30, who then sells to us for $40-50.

Cutting the cost to $25 means they sell to the retailer for $15-20.

They get half the profits, the retailer retains the same margin, they still sell shitloads of X Wing units and everyone wins. Just FFG wins a little less. I'm not one of their investors so I don't actually care about that.

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1 minute ago, Chucknuckle said:

There's a lot in there and I can't be bothered replying to it all...

But no, a $10 cost does not mean a $40 profit. If they cost $10 to produce, then they probably sell to the retailer for $20-$30, who then sells to us for $40-50.

Cutting the cost to $25 means they sell to the retailer for $15-20.

They get half the profits, the retailer retains the same margin, they still sell shitloads of X Wing units and everyone wins. Just FFG wins a little less. I'm not one of their investors so I don't actually care about that.

Ok, so in your first example, they were making a profit of $10-20.  In your second example, they're making a profit of $5-10.  Still looks to me like they're losing at least half their profit, not the 25% you were claiming.

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Whatevs. They could give it away for free and still stay in business. X Wing is a juggernaut and they're relying on loyalty from the players both to the game and to the IP to keep it going. And it will. Star Wars is hugely popular and isn't going away anytime soon, and X Wing is a great game set to become even better. But they didn't work out the minimum price they could charge and then put that on the sticker, they worked out the maximum price the customers would bear, and put THAT on the sticker. The conversion kits are not a favour to us.

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42 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Whatevs. They could give it away for free and still stay in business. X Wing is a juggernaut and they're relying on loyalty from the players both to the game and to the IP to keep it going. And it will. Star Wars is hugely popular and isn't going away anytime soon, and X Wing is a great game set to become even better. But they didn't work out the minimum price they could charge and then put that on the sticker, they worked out the maximum price the customers would bear, and put THAT on the sticker. The conversion kits are not a favour to us.

I don't claim that the conversion kits are the bare minimum, nor that they were intended to be.  However, to claim that they're not a favor to us is a bit disingenuous.  They could have simply said, "Your old stuff is null and void!  You must buy the new ships to play the new version!" and still have made a profit.  The conversion kits are a way to allow older players to retain much of their collection instead of having to pay full price rebuying it all.  Sure, they picked a price to maximize their profits, but the favor is in offering these kits at all at a price far below the price of all the individual ships. 

If it's still too much for some people, that's understandable.  I'm not saying everyone has to like the kits.  However, the people who claim that FFG needs to cut long-term players some slack are completely missing the fact that the kits themselves are the slack FFG is cutting us!

Edited by JJ48

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45 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Whatevs. They could give it away for free and still stay in business. X Wing is a juggernaut and they're relying on loyalty from the players both to the game and to the IP to keep it going. And it will. Star Wars is hugely popular and isn't going away anytime soon, and X Wing is a great game set to become even better. But they didn't work out the minimum price they could charge and then put that on the sticker, they worked out the maximum price the customers would bear, and put THAT on the sticker. The conversion kits are not a favour to us.

At the end of the day, they are trying to make a profit, you are playing an insanely affluent luxury (on the world scale).

 

I own a business and I am certainly not mad at another business trying to turn a profit.

I need 2x of each kit, and to me it's an insanely good deal. I am going to be paying what I pay for a single way to update 14x waves. 

In happy with the value, others are not. That's the way it goes. Ffg could have said "In 2.0 all 1.0 ships are garbage" but they didn't, they tried to bring the old stuff up for people. They could have said "we are going to limit our updates so you don't need to purchase anything for 2.0" but then the update would not be as large in scale.

 

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