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X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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1 minute ago, Chucknuckle said:

Added together, then divided by units sold.

I'm thinking like, $0.50 per unit or less.

I'm going to presume you're not trying to tell me that FFG will make $49.50 on each unit sold, so I don't get your point.

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Posted (edited)
Just now, __underscore__ said:

I'm going to presume you're not trying to tell me that FFG will make $49.50 on each unit sold, so I don't get your point.

*sigh*

There are a bunch of factors involved in the pricing on an item.

Development costs (and I'm including stuff like licensing, utilities, contracting, outsourcing etc)

Production costs

Shipping costs

Markup from the producer to the retailer*

Markup from the retailer to the customer*

And many more.

* - these are the big ones.

And I know I don't need to explain this to you.

FFG probably makes these kits for around $10. Maybe less. And of that $10, probably less than a dollar is the cost of actually developing the product. The rest is the cost of production and shipping. Because while their development costs are fixed, their sales volume is not. The more units they sell, the lower the cost (per unit) of development.

 

Edited by Chucknuckle

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1 minute ago, Chucknuckle said:

And I know I don't need to explain this to you.

No *****:

1 hour ago, __underscore__ said:

Have you also done a modest amount of research into the design, art, licensing, app development and whatever other overheads FFG has? Just looking at the printing cost of the physical product is ridiculously reductive.

 

So are you agreeing with me? I'm missing something still.

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On 5/5/2018 at 6:51 AM, Bulwyf said:

Their comparison makes literally no sense. I've played Warhammer Fantasy since the mid 1980's. I've played Rogue Trader, the predecessor to Warhammer 40k and including 40k all the way till now. At no point did Games Workshop force the players to buy conversion kits for their armies. All you ever had to do was buy the new edition's core rulebook and your army's rule book. I mean, it really is that simple. The cost of edition change in 40k is nowhere near as high as 2.0 is.

So these comparisons, which I realize you are not making but just quoting someone else, makes absolutely no sense.

Bunk.  Pure bunk, as a cursory glance at GW's list of publication history over the last couple of years will be enough to tell you.  http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codices_(List)

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1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Bunk.  Pure bunk, as a cursory glance at GW's list of publication history over the last couple of years will be enough to tell you.  http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codices_(List)

The person did say ‘core rulebook and your army's rule book’ so I’m not sure what’s bunk. Warhammer 40,000 is 31 years old, yes it has a lot of books, most of them are related to specific armies.

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Posted (edited)

I played 40k since Rogue Trader days. It by far is more expensive. Every 4 years they upgrade the rules and release new minis. Want to play in tournaments? You need the latest versions of their now ridiculously overpriced sprued minis, not minis from old versions. Gave up on GW 3 years ago and not going back.

Edited by Gallanteer

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Did you guys know it only costs gw 5p to manufacture a plastic sprue, yet they will charge you £50 for some kits.

 

I remember when 10 space marines costed about £10 new in box. That was a LONG time ago. Yes the new plastic gives better sculpts but the price is eye watering. FFG minis for XW, Armada and IA (I play all of them) aren't cheap but not as bad as that. Plus FFG aren't insisting you use the latest 2nd edition sculpted minis in tournaments (yet).

Edited by Gallanteer

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4 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Did you guys know it only costs gw 5p to manufacture a plastic sprue, yet they will charge you £50 for some kits.

 

Not sure if that was tongue in cheek or not........   :-)

The actual cost of producing a plastic sprue is relatively cheap. What isn't cheap is the initial set up cost to create the moulds and get them in to production. GW obviously do make decent profit from them though. It's probably similar to FFG.

 

Quote

And I quit 8th before last year's chapter approved came out, the first few codex releases clearly showed all GW's claims about play testing and concern over balance were lies, nothing that's happened since has disproved that.

I spent two years as part of a playtest group for GW on WFB.  The army books were playtested quite rigorously. The feedback given was, for the most part, simply ignored.  This doesn't fall at the feet of the army book / codex author, who were genuinely engaged in the process, but on those higher up.  I could point to countless examples of play testers saying this is broken / under-costed and then when the book gets printed, these things are made even worse.  It's all about selling the latest hotness. Game balance can and did take a hike. 

So whilst a new edition change is relatively comparable, the additional cost of new miniatures to make the army playable at a good level is certainly not.  

 

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2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Bunk.  Pure bunk, as a cursory glance at GW's list of publication history over the last couple of years will be enough to tell you.  http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codices_(List)

This.

No, you didn't need a 'conversion kit', and - assuming you didn't have some army based on a single unit or theme rendered invalid by rules changes (like the aforementioned pure cavalry elves or a pure assassinorum army), you could keep right on playing with the same models.

But, you'd need a new core rulebook (often not a million miles from the X-wing core set in price) and your new codex (cheaper than a conversion set unless you wanted a shiny limited edition version but not by too much).

Add in a second codex (if you had allies, or some specific variant army supplement - like Dark Eldar + Haemonculus Covens or a relevant Imperial Armour book) and datacards for stuff like psychic powers and you're probably at about the same net value if not more.

Again; note I'm not complaining here; yes, a new Imperial Armour book might - in game terms - only provide me with rules updates for one tank in my army, and cost me several tens of pounds. but the 'proper' imperial armour books (not the new indexes) are far more than just a rules reference, such that I'd at least consider buying them as an art book.

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1 hour ago, NulEnvoid said:

The person did say ‘core rulebook and your army's rule book’ so I’m not sure what’s bunk. Warhammer 40,000 is 31 years old, yes it has a lot of books, most of them are related to specific armies.

The bunk part is that GW is cheaper to go through edition changes. I play one army only, have not bought any new models for this edition and I have spent $150 to be 8th edition ready. 

Even if you limit yourself to just the core book and one army book, the absolute minimum is $100. $10 more than the 2.0 starter and one conversion box. 

There literally is not a way to get through a 40k edition change for less than starting x-wing 2.0.

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32 minutes ago, Elbastido said:

Not sure if that was tongue in cheek or not........   🙂

The actual cost of producing a plastic sprue is relatively cheap. What isn't cheap is the initial set up cost to create the moulds and get them in to production. GW obviously do make decent profit from them though. It's probably similar to FFG.

 

I spent two years as part of a playtest group for GW on WFB.  The army books were playtested quite rigorously. The feedback given was, for the most part, simply ignored.  This doesn't fall at the feet of the army book / codex author, who were genuinely engaged in the process, but on those higher up.  I could point to countless examples of play testers saying this is broken / under-costed and then when the book gets printed, these things are made even worse.  It's all about selling the latest hotness. Game balance can and did take a hike. 

So whilst a new edition change is relatively comparable, the additional cost of new miniatures to make the army playable at a good level is certainly not.  

 

No thats the actual cost of sprues including wages for staff and materials, molds are aluminium these days and much cheaper than the old ones that used to cost them 100,000.

And im sure there are playtesters, im equally sure they are just there for PR and GW had zero intention of actually trying.

Every rules change is needlessly heavy handed using a hammer in place of a scalpel, all talent left that design studion many years ago.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Sekac said:

The bunk part is that GW is cheaper to go through edition changes. I play one army only, have not bought any new models for this edition and I have spent $150 to be 8th edition ready. 

Even if you limit yourself to just the core book and one army book, the absolute minimum is $100. $10 more than the 2.0 starter and one conversion box. 

There literally is not a way to get through a 40k edition change for less than starting x-wing 2.0.

But if you play in tournaments, GW block use of fielding models if they have been replaced with newer sculpts (which they always do).

Did you get a whole 15 new troop models for that $150? Their prices are ridiculous.

The main reason I quit 40k after 30 years was because the ruleset continued to have so many holes in every edition and ambiguous rulings. FFG has its moments but on the whole are pretty solid.

Edited by Gallanteer

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Posted (edited)
On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 2:07 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

This.

No, you didn't need a 'conversion kit', and - assuming you didn't have some army based on a single unit or theme rendered invalid by rules changes (like the aforementioned pure cavalry elves or a pure assassinorum army), you could keep right on playing with the same models.

But, you'd need a new core rulebook (often not a million miles from the X-wing core set in price) and your new codex (cheaper than a conversion set unless you wanted a shiny limited edition version but not by too much).

Add in a second codex (if you had allies, or some specific variant army supplement - like Dark Eldar + Haemonculus Covens or a relevant Imperial Armour book) and datacards for stuff like psychic powers and you're probably at about the same net value if not more.

Take - for example - the Adeptus Mechanicus, a new faction for WH40K introduced in 7th Edition.  Not a bad starting point you'd think; an all new army for an all new player.

To start with, you needed the 7th Edition Rulebook.  Then you needed to pick up Codex: Cult Mechanicus to get the relevant army list entries.

Only, it was a small army, so then they introduced Codex: Skitarii as well to bulk up the list and add new units.  And, while you're at it, you may have wanted to pick up Codex: Imperial Knights as well.  Because big machines roflstomp small machines.

Then 8th Edition came out.  So you needed to update your rulebook.  And all your previous codexes immediately became invalid, so you needed to pick up Index: Imperium II.  Which was only ever really a stop gap until Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus eventually came out.

Now, bear in mind that the FIRST Adeptus Mechanicus release was March 2015, and that's up to SEVEN rulebooks you would have needed to pick up in the space of just three years.  And that's before you even picked up a single model.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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You know FFG is actually listening and cares even if they dont come out directly and say.

GW only wants positive feedback and will block and ignore even the most constructive critisism.

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4 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

But if you play in tournaments, GW block use of fielding models if they have been replaced.

Did you get a whole 15 new troop models for that $150? Their prices are ridiculous.

Like I said, I haven't bought any new models. The $150 is rulebooks and datacards only. 

I have no intention of ever attending a tournament that enforces GW's "our products or you can't play" policy. 

The costs definitely rise considerably if you have to start replacing models. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Like I said, I haven't bought any new models. The $150 is rulebooks and datacards only. 

I have no intention of ever attending a tournament that enforces GW's "our products or you can't play" policy. 

The costs definitely rise considerably if you have to start replacing models. 

And yet if you are a casual player in XW, simply download the new rules, buy a conv kit and 'make do' with the old core components as the only big change is the new damage deck. Therefore 2nd ed XW is a LOT cheaper than 40k upgrades and even more so if you are a tournament player.

Edited by Gallanteer

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9 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

But if you play in tournaments, GW block use of fielding models if they have been replaced with newer sculpts (which they always do).

Wow, I remember WYSIWYG being a thing, but that's a whole new level of gouging.  I guess that's GW's way of killing off the second hand aftermarket, then.

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6 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Wow, I remember WYSIWYG being a thing, but that's a whole new level of gouging.  I guess that's GW's way of killing off the second hand aftermarket, then.

Thats why all the armies have stupid names now, meh copyright, meh trademark!!!!

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I get why some are upset about the new version and the cost, but I don't get the comparisons to GW. I played 40k for 7 years, bowing out when 7th edition dropped bringing Apocalypse into the main rules.  It became apparent to me at that point that GW were never going to try to make the game better. They just wanted to disrupt the current game and generate churn with new rules books, codices and models. 

When I look at FFG their approach to X-wing 2.0 seems to be the opposite.  They're rebuilding the game to make it better,  not rejigger the rules to push superheavies or flyers like GW did.  They're bringing the game back to its roots, reining in the excesses and mistakes of 1.0 to make a more balanced game where all the ships can compete, where the x-wings and b-wings can come out to play with the TIE fighters without fear of annihilation from missiles and bombs, where regeneration is more widely available and less powerful, and where flying matters again.

That's why I'm all in on 2.0 and why the conversion kits seem like a great value to me.  I won't ever have to buy a rebel or scum release again. 😁

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sekac said:

The bunk part is that GW is cheaper to go through edition changes. I play one army only, have not bought any new models for this edition and I have spent $150 to be 8th edition ready. 

Even if you limit yourself to just the core book and one army book, the absolute minimum is $100. $10 more than the 2.0 starter and one conversion box. 

There literally is not a way to get through a 40k edition change for less than starting x-wing 2.0.

Prices must be skewered in the US for GW product, NZD buying hardcover versions of both the expanded rulebook and a codex would be $150-$170 if you didn't shop around, you should be able to get that for $120-$130 new NZD easily. Core box and two conversion kits would cost me $210-$220. So either the US prices are whack (presuming that's what you're quoting) or people are quoting extreme cases rather than the average.

Edited by NulEnvoid
Prices

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9 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

*sigh*

There are a bunch of factors involved in the pricing on an item.

Development costs (and I'm including stuff like licensing, utilities, contracting, outsourcing etc)

Production costs

Shipping costs

Markup from the producer to the retailer*

Markup from the retailer to the customer*

And many more.

* - these are the big ones.

And I know I don't need to explain this to you.

FFG probably makes these kits for around $10. Maybe less. And of that $10, probably less than a dollar is the cost of actually developing the product. The rest is the cost of production and shipping. Because while their development costs are fixed, their sales volume is not. The more units they sell, the lower the cost (per unit) of development.

 

licensing cost should probably get a *

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